Think it's easy creating everything ?

I honestly think the bible was a feeble attempt to try and explain God. And yes I do think that in the end it's going to be something so different then any of us could imagine. Kind of like us all going back to the energy we came from. Of course I could be wrong and burn in hell.

reply to post by Solarskye


Im not so sure about that.

The bible is the word of god for the very reason that man wrote it.

Jesus did exist and can be traced but it is also impossible for him not to have if we are here to create infinite possibilities from the finite lives we have.

I do however believe that certain parts of christianity are barking up the wrong tree but even at that it does not matter because it is part of why we are here.

How would we know right from wrong without learning what it is by making it?

God does after all work in mysterious ways someone once said.

As for hell, I think hell is actually where all the bad "lives" if you like will be going as theres no need for the bad to be part of gods being in the end.

Read revelations and you can see that in the second death.



[edit on 23-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O
God could not exist without us.

It would be a paradox to not create us if you get me?

I do not believe we are here for amusement at all. I believe it is more toward a journey to become god and at that point time will have no significance etc.

If god were to change our course he would be changing himself which would mean there would be no point in god himself.

Well the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord. Lord being God so I can't run with us becoming God.

If God did change our course He would be changing Himself which would mean there would be no point in God Himself.

I like this but I have to tell you.

I believe God intercedes when we ask.

reply to post by jackflap


God is infinite and can do anything.

If you pray to god and you are answered there is nothing in what I am saying that would say you are not speaking with god.

If you connect with god and get an answer then that is part of your experience because time has no meaning to god which does not prevent god from answering if necessary. Also because of the reason we are here, some will be close to god and some will not.

You said "Well the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord"

I would state this as another reason for who we are.

Each to his own I enjoy discussing but I respect everyones religion, no harm in debating though.



[edit on 23-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O
reply to post by jackflap

 

God is infinite and can do anything.

If you pray to god and you are answered there is nothing in what I am saying that would say you are not speaking with god.

If you connect with god and get an answer then that is part of your experience because time has no meaning to god which does not prevent god from answering if necessary. Also because of the reason we are here, some will be close to god and some will not.

You said "Well the Bible says absent from the body present with the Lord"

I would state this as another reason for who we are.

Each to his own I enjoy discussing but I respect everyones religion, no harm in debating though.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

No harm at all. I appreciate everything you offered I really do. I am going to do a little more digging on the matter myself. Your input will be a factor in what I'm researching...

Cool thread. If given the chance to think as God, and looking around right now, would I feel great pity on all those of this world and say to myself "well, I know they won't learn if I don't let them get the experience themselves" and just give all of men their reward anyways, bring peace and paradise, knowing that it wouldn't be appreciated, my name wouldn't be glorified, and the paradise I gave them would again be abused.
Question #1=NO! I mean, I would feel great pity, but the lesson has to be learned. (Romans Ch 9)
By trying to put myself in His shoes, I can imagine the Fathers pain at his children all trying to make themslelves greater than him, and not giving Him the glory. Hurting each other and His gift to us(we were intended to make the earth a paradise) Besides that he still loves us and see's our suffering and although I recognize it is in his power to cut our suffering short, we still have to learn the lesson that we can't rule ourselves. With his plan we get to keep our free choice and choose to serve him. That to me is not a contradiciton. (Isaiah Ch 2)
Back in early mans day, men were really like children and God treated them as such, gave his people direct rules and punished them when they dissobeyed him. But he wants us to mature, and once we have learned our lesson and become responsible adults and recognize his rules were for our benefit, and gladly accept his rule, then he can give all of men his blessings... I want him to act like my parents did when, as a young adult I rebelled. They always loved me, but they weren't going to support my habits, they were not going to tell me my self destructive ways were OK. There was a time when I was at what seemed rock bottom, they took me back into their home, when I proved I hadn't changed, out the door I went! When I was a baby, I was not allowed to play with fire, then as a teenager, if I burnt myself it was my own fault, but they would console me. As an adult, I think I have found most the ways to get burnt. Lame analogy sure, I think it fits though. As a species we have a long history that we can call upon that proves, we are not fit to fairly and justly rule over ourselves or this Earth. (Jer 10:23)
Knowing that this is the course that must take place would I as God choose to give men choice to begin with. Q#2= Yes, because their purpose of being my friends and enjoying the Earth I have given them would not be appreciated if they didn't chose it. If is a necessary journey.
It is very comforting to know that God wants us to be free of pain and suffering as much as each one of us do, however, He knows a few thousand years of imperfection is really a little thing compared to earned perfection forever.

Originally posted by Solarskye
I honestly think the bible was a feeble attempt to try and explain God. And yes I do think that in the end it's going to be something so different then any of us could imagine. Kind of like us all going back to the energy we came from. Of course I could be wrong and burn in hell.

Well think about that angle Solarsky. You have created everything and your plan is in place. Nothing is hidden from you and you know all. You leave a message for man and the best way to make them realize that you are in control is to let everyone know your Word is there. How would you explain what is going on to us...Would you have even used the written word or would you have embossed the sky with your message?

reply to post by XXXN3O


I really enjoy your posts. You have an ability to make your point very clear and it is not an irrational one. Now pretend for a moment that the Bible and everything in it is true. You are the Creator behind this monumental plan that is playing out before us. Everything that is in the Bible must be true about you. As far as we are concerned in this thread. You already know how it will turn out...This must be a huge plan. Do you feel we are in the hands of a loving creator at this time or would you change it? The only way to intercede is if you are asked...

Originally posted by jackflap
Isn't it better if they worship you on their own?

Why worship at all ?

Why god needs it ?

I was under impression that Cristian worshiping "evolved" (new-born movement) into "relationship" of some kind, yes ?

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by jackflap
Isn't it better if they worship you on their own?

Why worship at all ?

Why god needs it ?

I was under impression that Cristian worshiping "evolved" (new-born movement) into "relationship" of some kind, yes ?

Thanks 5thElement. I never even thought about this angle. Has the strict rule and regulation of religion evolved into a relationship? That more and more are embracing. I know Martin Luther had something to do with this. And I know it was a long time ago. Exact dates and if I'm even right about it I do not know. It would require some looking into though.

Originally posted by Xcouncil=wisdom
Cool thread. If given the chance to think as God, and looking around right now, would I feel great pity on all those of this world and say to myself "well, I know they won't learn if I don't let them get the experience themselves" and just give all of men their reward anyways, bring peace and paradise, knowing that it wouldn't be appreciated, my name wouldn't be glorified, and the paradise I gave them would again be abused.
Question #1=NO! I mean, I would feel great pity, but the lesson has to be learned. (Romans Ch 9)

Q#2= Yes, because their purpose of being my friends and enjoying the Earth I have given them would not be appreciated if they didn't chose it.

Thanks for you thoughts Xcouncil. So you feel as though we are being taught something as we experience life? What is it that we should learn?

And yes to number 2 because it is better to have them make the choice themselves instead of mindlessly following you.....I agree with that. I believe there is more to it though.

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

I really enjoy your posts. You have an ability to make your point very clear and it is not an irrational one. Now pretend for a moment that the Bible and everything in it is true. You are the Creator behind this monumental plan that is playing out before us. Everything that is in the Bible must be true about you. As far as we are concerned in this thread. You already know how it will turn out...This must be a huge plan. Do you feel we are in the hands of a loving creator at this time or would you change it? The only way to intercede is if you are asked...

Thanks i am enjoying your topic.

I would say if I were god because I had given free will to man I would not intervene directly but if people were asking for my help I would try to make their choices in life slightly clearer in an indirect way. This would mean it is still their choice not mine.

Do I feel as if god is a loving creator. I would say anyone who gives you life and the abilities we have deserves a pat on the back so my answer would be yes but there will always be people who have an unfair advantage or disadvantage because of why we are here and not because god is unfair but because of our purpose.

"Judge not; Lest ye be judged"
"Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
Take this scenario, if I were walking down a road and a beggar asks me for change but I tell him to get lost and shake him off my leg before walking away. I am only judging and hurting myself because that has been or will be me and that beggar will be or has been me. If I help him, I am helping myself. But if you imagine all our paths at the end of this having crossed through all possibilities we will fully understand both sides of the coin and everything bad or good.

For me, this is why bad happens in the world and why it is within our own power to change it quite easily if people removed the sand from there eyes but man is still too self centred but I think that will change soon because all roads end up at rome.



[edit on 24-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by XXXN3O

 

Thanks i am enjoying your topic.

I would say if I were god because I had given free will to man I would not intervene directly but if people were asking for my help I would try to make their choices in life slightly clearer in an indirect way. This would mean it is still their choice not mine.

Do I feel as if god is a loving creator. I would say anyone who gives you life and the abilities we have deserves a pat on the back so my answer would be yes but there will always be people who have an unfair advantage or disadvantage because of why we are here and not because god is unfair but because of our purpose.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

In your first paragraph you say you wouldn't intervene directly but try to make correct choices clear. Do you think the Bible is His way of doing this?
Would you have done it differently?

Whatever purpose that me be. It must be a huge plan. I know I said that already but once I sit back and think of it. It is huge. We are told in the Bible that nothing can compare to what God has prepared for them that love Him. I personally believe this. But for the sake of the thread imagine yourself believing this and now look at the enormity of the big picture. What would make you create such a reality as ours.

reply to post by jackflap


It would make sense with what I believe for the bible to be a guide.
You do not have to read it after all and if you do it does not influence your life directly. Does question the pope looking at it like that does it not? (but thats a whole other topic in itself)

I still think this reality was created to gain understanding of what everything is. We could not know anything without having lived really could we?

From what you have been saying I am wondering if that is to add to god or become one with, which is the same thing as becoming god i guess.

It is fascinating in itself and some fascinating times as always.

It is interesting how society is steering us all in the opposite direction from the goal yet many who seek still find.



[edit on 24-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

Originally posted by XXXN3O
reply to post by jackflap

 

It would make sense with what I believe for the bible to be a guide.
You do not have to read it after all and if you do it does not influence your life directly. Does question the pope looking at it like that does it not? (but thats a whole other topic in itself)

I still think this reality was created to gain understanding of what everything is. We could not know anything without having lived really could we?

From what you have been saying I am wondering if that is to add to god or become one with, which is the same thing as becoming god i guess.

It is fascinating in itself and some fascinating times as always.

It is interesting how society is steering us all in the opposite direction from the goal yet many who seek still find.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by XXXN3O]

The thought process does seem to lead you in the direction you have laid out in your first paragraph. Although I do believe it influences your life dramatically when read. If you read it with the intention of wanting to know Him more...

I do believe one goal is to gain understanding. But if God wanted you to know everything He would have created you with the knowledge already. This is not impossible for Him. So if you believe the Bible then yes God could create you with all knowledge without having lived a single day on earth.

I would certainly not add to. I believe we are trying to put ourselves in the role of Creator and explore our own thought processes as we observe what has already been done thus far in this major plan we are in. We may get a little closer to the truth. And I believe we will gain much understanding. God has given us this mind to do these things. I don't believe He would frown upon us as we try to know Him more.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Plus I do try to remember to pray this when discussing such matters: (Remember I'm the one who believes the Bible. You don't have to ascribe to my beliefs. I'm just sharing some of my own thoughts.)

Psalms 139:23Search me, O God, and know my heart:
try me, and know my thoughts:

24and see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by jackflap]

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by jackflap

 

Although I do believe it influences your life dramatically when read. If you read it with the intention of wanting to know Him more...

I do believe one goal is to gain understanding. But if God wanted you to know everything He would have created you with the knowledge already. This is not impossible for Him. So if you believe the Bible then yes God could create you with all knowledge without having lived a single day on earth.

I would certainly not add to. I believe we are trying to put ourselves in the role of Creator and explore our own thought processes as we observe what has already been done thus far in this major plan we are in. We may get a little closer to the truth. And I believe we will gain much understanding. God has given us this mind to do these things. I don't believe He would frown upon us as we try to know Him more.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing:
but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.

Plus I do try to remember to pray this when discussing such matters: (Remember I'm the one who believes the Bible. You don't have to ascribe to my beliefs. I'm just sharing some of my own thoughts.)

Psalms 139:23Search me, O God, and know my heart:
try me, and know my thoughts:

24and see if there be any wicked way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.

[edit on 24-2-2009 by jackflap]

I agree with what you are saying.

If we were created knowing the whole finished plan in the end that would mean there would be no point in us existing in the first place. But in knowing the truth it only serves to make you want to live more and be the best you can be.

I think that life itself is a pardox to become the very being that created us through doing what is right and learning from our failings.

How can you ever forgive anyone else before you have forgiven yourself.
Explains why god can forgive you.

Ack I think you get my vibe by now.

Ive been on a rather crazy journey the past while and I could not have fathomed that I would come out at the other end saying the things that I am now.

"Thanks for you thoughts Xcouncil. So you feel as though we are being
taught something as we experience life? What is it that we should learn? "

sorry to take so long to reply Jack

The lesson is as I slightly noted before, which can be found at Jeremiah 10:23 "O Lord I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" We have to learn not just as individuals, but as mankind as a whole that we are not fit to rule over ourselves. That is why we have been allowed to make our our choices and invent every form of government, so that we can prove to ourselves that we are not worthy to rule over ourselves. God doesn't need to prove it to Himself, He is letting us prove it to ourselves. That is how He is showing his love, that way, when He does cleanse the Earth those upon it will happily accept His rightous rule. If He stepped in everyday, and removed the murderers and rapists theives and crooks, healed the sick and blessed the humble, then we could find ourselves in a similar situation to Job, when Satan suggested that only because of Gods blessings did Job serve him. Lovingly He has also given us the hope of a resurection so that all that lived before can be remembered by him and brought back to enjoy the paradise he intended, and if some of them get the idea that maybe they'd like to start their own government or try to live alternative lifestyles, mankind as a whole will be witnesses to the fact that there would be no future for those kinds of desires.
So its tough love, but He doesn't want us to serve Him because He said to, or for reward, or out of fear. He wants us to serve Him because we want to.

Alright I thought long and hard about this. It's still in its infancy so keep that in mind. This may take us a little closer to what I'm thinking we can achieve. This is only theory and not factual. Notice I didn't use scripture to back this up. Only the standard story that everyone knows.


You create beings with a mind and a will. You and the beings are the only thing in existence with an intellect. The beings worship you and serve you because they love you. They were created in your presence after all. Kinda not fair right? I mean the argument can be made that they worship you because they can see you. One of the more beautiful Angles decides he should be worshiped instead. He convinces a third of the Angles to follow him and they become everything opposite of what you are. You could just exterminate or make it so it never happened to begin with. But everything you do is perfect and is love. Would a fair God just start over or make it as it never happened? No. He created these beings and gave them a mind and a will for a purpose. The only two intellects in existence are you and the Angles. Who will judge who is right and who is wrong? You created them after all.

To show them how it is outside of your presence you throw them to earth. This is what they wanted right? Let them rule themselves on earth. They wanted God to be out of the picture. As for finding out who is right and wrong. You create a new being with a mind and a will. You bless them and give them dominion over all the creatures of the earth you created. You just don’t tell them who to worship. You create man again with a spirit to have fellowship in a garden that you made. Soon enough the devil influences their thinking and they know suddenly how to disobey the God who is all love. You tell them you will make a plan for them to be able to return to you. You give them animal skins for themselves and banish them from the garden. They flee and team up with mankind elsewhere and relay their story of the garden and the serpent and that they disobeyed God.

So fast forward 10000+years and here we are today. Not created in Gods presence. Born with a will and a mind. Knowledge of good and evil. Satan and his followers telling us to do this and that. God telling us to not listen to the devil but to believe what He is telling us. Will all the atrocities and evil that has happened from then until now and even in the future be used as evidence against those beings who influence our thinking? Will our reward be far greater then anything one can imagine? Will we testify against the evil that has permeated the planet?

Jack, in my opinion (which does slightly dissagree with you on your generalized series of biblical events, but I agree enough for this discussion)

Yes, Yes, and Yes....to add to #3, I don't think we need to testify to the judge, He is aware of the all of the atrocities, and that is the info He uses to justly bring punishment on the decievers, but we will be witnesses of his rightousness to those of our kind that might in the future (born and resurected) allow the ideas of the past to creep back into mind, as we will still have free will(ya know, greed, self satisfaction at the expense of others)...but the idea is that we will recongize that we don't want human leaders, and we don't need human laws, because we will love Him and each other. When simplified like this it sounds as if we are still following him out of fear of punishment, or hope of rewards. But the point I try not to miss is we recongnize as a whole society that it is the only way we can truely be happy.
#2 Side note, beyond imagination, yes, and since I can't imagine it I will simply believe it to be great, I am of the opinion there are two types of life after this, a few in heaven and many on earth. I am happy to look forward to be one of many on earth, forever is the unimaginable to me as well as what wonders we will learn and accomplish.

I hope I'm contibuting...I know my input is nothing new, but I imagine it to be important to the conversation..

edit for off topic content

[edit on 26-2-2009 by Xcouncil=wisdom]

reply to post by jackflap


I read your post and although I see your point I still strongly feel that the devil is a metaphor.

Taking into account what I have posted earlier. Read revelations again with an open minded viewpoint and take it metaphorically. Also read the Genesis in a similar manner.

On the seventh day god rested, he might still be waiting (resting). After all the bible never mentions "God arose from his slumber on the 8th day"

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire, this is the second death"
What does a human being (created in gods image) do with bad memories and thing that they have done that are bad? They learn from them, put them out of there minds and move on to do better.
What use would god have for all the bad that he had experienced and learned from once he knows exactly what evil is? He would discrard it forever but never forget or return to it.

A better way to put this might be to say he has a mind filled with everything that anyone ever did which is actually all of us joined with him in the end and some will be discarded as they serve no use for the next step in the plan.

While every single event in the bible is possible for the reasons we are here I still think it holds a metaphorical purpose from it which is why it is in the book itself. Can you imagine a book that contained everything about everything. Most people cannot comprehend how to cook food never mind understand everything

If we deny god, we deny our own existence. Human beings even deny themselves at this level through various means, how can they ever expect to be a part of a finished journey if they have not learned who they are yet.

It is possible that this way of existing could end tomorrow because it might only take a few to realise for the many because we are all the same thing and all the roads are being taken up faster than ever before. Death as it is in the biblical sense is the death of your experiences if they are not righteous.

This might be hard to comprehend as nobody apart from Jesus if you like has died before, realised and came back with a complete answer. Imagine dying, waking up to find yourself a part of all that you ever loved in life and more in terms of knowledge, experience and truth. Knowing what this is about, finally knowing who you are, being joined with anyone and everyone that you knew or did not know and having all the time that could ever exist with the power to do anything that could be done when the final experience is complete but that will be irrelevant because we will all join at the same time perception wise. I believe that is what is described as heaven, true harmony etc, but what would you do then?

Now imagine the exact same thing only then being kicked out for being evil, that is what hell would be like. Knowing that you were so close but you were a bad person and had the chance but you ruined it for yourself. Even although you now had that fraction of an experience etc, you are not a part of it now and that is where your journey ends, seperated from the truth of what you are, seperated from yourself. That would be at the least extremely tormenting.

What I ponder on now is, if we are here to create infinity from the finite, what do we face when we get to the end point. Must be a gigantic task of unbelievable proportions to our minds.

Hope im making sense and apologies for taking this a bit of topic but I do not see the harm in it with where the discussion is going.



[edit on 28-2-2009 by XXXN3O]