If Jesus was to return today.

Maybe this will help.

never mind.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by badmedia


I personally think that it's silly that you don't accept Paul! He never contradicts Jesus' teachings, like many have said. He doesn't distort his teachings either. If it seems like he does, one needs to take the time and study the context. The Apostles would've warned people if he was. Instead, at least Peter [the leader of the Apostles mind you], goes as far as to say that Paul's writings were on par with the Old Testament writings!

When you are to, for instance, buy a Bible, do you rip out Mark, Luke, Acts, and all of Paul's letters? [One'd have to do these things because they've all been influenced by Paul's 'heretical' teaching] The Apostles accepted Paul's teachings, even saying it's scripture--or do you rip 2 Peter out too?

Christianity was recognized by many to be a faith during the period after Christ's ascension. You know that it's called the Way and the people were mockingly called 'Christians' right?

The rapture of the church is personal for all Christians. When Christ calls us, we all go personally to him! What makes someone special enough to have God decide to call them up to him and not someone else, since we all live on the same Earth [to take your own words]?

Edit to add: I think your understanding of Jesus is flawed. Jesus actually was a man. It's not some allegorical truth figure. He was real. He died a real death, shed real blood, and paid for humanities real sins. Jesus and he really rose from the grave too. Yes, Jesus taught that we'd all have personal trials [Paul did too by the way] but he also taught that there'd be a time of worldwide calamity. The only way you can get around this is if you allegoricalize the Bible--which is wrong. God is a very literal God. He tells us things straight up and he doesn't keep things hidden. God wants all people to come to a knowledge of himself and that doesn't happen if there is a hidden meaning in things.

[edit on 2/23/2009 by octotom]

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by badmedia

 

I personally think that it's silly that you don't accept Paul! He never contradicts Jesus' teachings, like many have said. He doesn't distort his teachings either. If it seems like he does, one needs to take the time and study the context. The Apostles would've warned people if he was. Instead, at least Peter [the leader of the Apostles mind you], goes as far as to say that Paul's writings were on par with the Old Testament writings!

Ummm, yeah go ask a Jewish person if this is true about Paul. They will likely hurt your feelings.

Peter was not the leader of the apostles. Jesus is the only leader.

As I mention, Paul does everything the father taught me not to do. But saying he doesn't contradict Jesus is hogwash. I will give a few examples:

Paul says:

Gal 4

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Jesus says:

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

There is no adoption, you have to be born anew of the spirit. Why would he say adoption? Oh yeah, because Paul claims he is your father.

Paul says:

1 Corinthians 4

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Begotten of course means father, and in other versions it is even translated as such. Oh, and 10 thousands instructors?

Matthew 23

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And I can go on. These are not just minor things. These are things I was shown specifically NOT to do. If you want more, just let me know.

When you are to, for instance, buy a Bible, do you rip out Mark, Luke, Acts, and all of Paul's letters? [One'd have to do these things because they've all been influenced by Paul's 'heretical' teaching] The Apostles accepted Paul's teachings, even saying it's scripture--or do you rip 2 Peter out too?

My authority is not the bible, but the word of God for which the bible tried to be a replacement for, but is not. As pointed out, there is but 1 teacher. I really do not care what the bible says, I did not learn from it. But I do find that it says many things I learned, both in terms of what to do(Jesus) and in terms of what not to do(Paul and the Church).

Christianity was recognized by many to be a faith during the period after Christ's ascension. You know that it's called the Way and the people were mockingly called 'Christians' right?

Actually it was considered a Jewish sect, not a separate Religion. It is the church of Satan. The entire reason Paul goes to the gentiles is because all the Jews rejected him. It still doesn't change the fact that Christianity is a new Religion made in the name of Christ since the death of Jesus, who has 1600 years of sin and wicked works of power grabbing and converting. It is the anti-christ religion, and just as Revelations says Jesus will make them of the synagogue of Satan.

The rapture of the church is personal for all Christians. When Christ calls us, we all go personally to him! What makes someone special enough to have God decide to call them up to him and not someone else, since we all live on the same Earth [to take your own words]?

You can call a synagogue a church if you want, but I know a synagogue when I see one. The church Jesus talks about is not some physical building, the physical buildings and such that we see all over the place are synagogues.

Edit to add: I think your understanding of Jesus is flawed. Jesus actually was a man. It's not some allegorical truth figure. He was real. He died a real death, shed real blood, and paid for humanities real sins. Jesus and he really rose from the grave too. Yes, Jesus taught that we'd all have personal trials [Paul did too by the way] but he also taught that there'd be a time of worldwide calamity. The only way you can get around this is if you allegoricalize the Bible--which is wrong. God is a very literal God. He tells us things straight up and he doesn't keep things hidden. God wants all people to come to a knowledge of himself and that doesn't happen if there is a hidden meaning in things.

It doesn't matter to me if he is real or not. I have no trouble believing he was real, but he is symbolic of the truth, the way and the light.

I know the father and have seen the father. I experienced John 14:20 for myself and have been born anew.

The word of god is kept hidden and physical replacements have been created for all such things. The church is not a physical building, built on a physical rock. Jesus is not talking about a physical rock when he talks to Peter. The church is built off knowledge and wisdom which is more valuable than any physical item, it is within you, and because it is within the person is in both heaven and on earth, and the powers of this world can not touch it.

Matthew 7

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Paul and the church do not do what he says. They will be made out to be the synagogue of Satan.

Matthew 7

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because they have worked in sin. And their fruits for the past 1600 years shows it. A bunch of ignorant christian who have nothing of god, none of the wisdom and knowledge needed or rewarded by the father.

Revelation 3

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Sorry, but I did not learn from the bible and do not accept any authorities of man. I learned directly from the father and the holy spirit. All these things you have are physical and superficial replacements.

Originally posted by badmedia

Ummm, yeah go ask a Jewish person if this is true about Paul. They will likely hurt your feelings.

Naturally a Jew isn't going to accept Peter's authority. The fact though is still that Peter equated Paul's writings to being on the level of OT Scripture.

As I mention, Paul does everything the father taught me not to do. But saying he doesn't contradict Jesus is hogwash. I will give a few examples:

There is no adoption, you have to be born anew of the spirit. Why would he say adoption? Oh yeah, because Paul claims he is your father.

Paul says:

1 Corinthians 4

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul never denied that you have to be born again. Adoption shows that act of God placing you into his family. Paul was refering to him as being the father of the Corinthians because be is the one that brought them the Gospel! He was equating himself to be God the father! That would be asanine for one who was a Pharisaical Jew such as Paul was to do!

The ESV doesn't translate 1 Corinthians 4.15 that way:

For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel

Countless guides undoubtedly probably refers to other itinerate teachers that the Corinthians had. Perhaps the other Apostles? Barnabas maybe? Jesus afterall sent the 12 out as Apostles. That word means messenger--a messenger with the authority of the master.

Matthew 23

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Jesus was referring to spiritual titles. Otherwise, we'd be sinning by calling our earthly fathers our fathers.

Actually it was considered a Jewish sect, not a separate Religion. It is the church of Satan. The entire reason Paul goes to the gentiles is because all the Jews rejected him. It still doesn't change the fact that Christianity is a new Religion made in the name of Christ since the death of Jesus, who has 1600 years of sin and wicked works of power grabbing and converting. It is the anti-christ religion, and just as Revelations says Jesus will make them of the synagogue of Satan.

Yes, this is true. But it was thought to be a Jewish sect from the Roman perspective. The Jews didn't think they were Jews and the Christians didn't think they were Jews. Paul went to the Gentiles after he'd given the Jews a chance to accept Christ as Savior. Peter went to the Gentiles as well, as did, eventually, the rest of the Apostles.

You realize that in Revelation, Christ is talking to seven churches right [Jesus even said that the church would come]? Here's the verse from Revelation [2.9 ESV] that you're refering to:

I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan

Jesus didn't say it was a church that was a synagogue of Satan, but rather an actual synagogue filled with "Jews"! He doesn't say that he'll make them that synagogue of Satan either, but that they already are. Remember that the Jews were zealous opponents of the early church.

You a synagogue a church if you want, but I know a synagogue when I see one. The church Jesus talks about is not some physical building, the physical buildings and such that we see all over the place are synagogues.

Yes, the only church that matters is the universal church--or the spiritual one. That's the one that God can see. When people say that the church will be raptured, it's not some building. Only those who have accepted Christ as their savior. That's it. There will be plenty of churches still filled with people after the rapture happens.

It doesn't matter to me if he is real or not. I have no trouble believing he was real, but he is symbolic of the truth, the way and the light.

Jesus was more than just symbolic of truth, the way, and the life. He was all those things.

Since this thread has become mostly you and me, we should u2u oneanother if we're to continue this, I think. Just send me a message if you're interested.

Originally posted by octotom
Naturally a Jew isn't going to accept Peter's authority. The fact though is still that Peter equated Paul's writings to being on the level of OT Scripture.

Or so the writings say. Personally, it sounds to me as if true, then Peter was swindled by Paul. Which wouldn't be the first time for Peter.

Paul never denied that you have to be born again. Adoption shows that act of God placing you into his family. Paul was refering to him as being the father of the Corinthians because be is the one that brought them the Gospel! He was equating himself to be God the father! That would be asanine for one who was a Pharisaical Jew such as Paul was to do!

The ESV doesn't translate 1 Corinthians 4.15 that way:

For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel

This is just making excuses. He say's he is your father. Jesus says call no man your father. It doesn't make a difference if I brought you the Gospel or not, I am not your father, I did not beget you, and if I teach you to call me father then it's not the gospel that I gave you. Besides which, if you actually read what Jesus says, then you will know the holy spirit is the one who teaches people personally, and you do not need some gospel brought to you by some man.

Paul continues to build himself up as an authority as such, when I was taught to never make myself an authority. And funny enough, Jesus also agrees with me and told the actual disciples not to do it.

Furthermore, Paul talks about in hopes of adoption. This is all a perversion of what Jesus said, and my own personal experiences. If Paul is your father, then you do not know the real father. Because you would never accept someone calling themselves your father.

It is clear that Paul is just confused. Because he hasn't actually experienced being born again for himself, he has no clue what he is talking about.

Countless guides undoubtedly probably refers to other itinerate teachers that the Corinthians had. Perhaps the other Apostles? Barnabas maybe? Jesus afterall sent the 12 out as Apostles. That word means messenger--a messenger with the authority of the master.

There is only 1 teacher. If you don't like that fact, take it up with Jesus/the father.

Jesus was referring to spiritual titles. Otherwise, we'd be sinning by calling our earthly fathers our fathers.

And Paul gives himself a spiritual title of father. Surely you aren't to suggest that he means himself as a biological father.

Yes, this is true. But it was thought to be a Jewish sect from the Roman perspective. The Jews didn't think they were Jews and the Christians didn't think they were Jews. Paul went to the Gentiles after he'd given the Jews a chance to accept Christ as Savior. Peter went to the Gentiles as well, as did, eventually, the rest of the Apostles.

You realize that in Revelation, Christ is talking to seven churches right [Jesus even said that the church would come]? Here's the verse from Revelation [2.9 ESV] that you're refering to:

I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan

Jesus didn't say it was a church that was a synagogue of Satan, but rather an actual synagogue filled with "Jews"! He doesn't say that he'll make them that synagogue of Satan either, but that they already are. Remember that the Jews were zealous opponents of the early church.

Jesus calls those who follow him Jews. He calls a church a synagogue. Paul didn't give the Jews a chance. He was run out because they knew he was a fake.

Tell me, what is the difference between a Church and a synagogue? The difference is only in name and tradition. It is the same exact function.

The only true Church is not physical. It is a church built upon knowledge and wisdom, the true riches of god. Because it is built on wisdom, it is built upon a rock that no man can touch. It is on both earth and in heaven because it is built within the flesh in your consciousness and soul.

You are not to preach, you are to discuss. When 2 or more people are discussing Jesus, he will be among you. Discussion brings understanding among those people, and when you build your understanding and wisdom, then you are buildings your own true Church. Calling a synagogue a church is nothing more than the scribes changing around what things are called in order to keep people blind to the real truth.

Yes, the only church that matters is the universal church--or the spiritual one. That's the one that God can see. When people say that the church will be raptured, it's not some building. Only those who have accepted Christ as their savior. That's it. There will be plenty of churches still filled with people after the rapture happens.

False as far as your only those who accept Christ as their savor bit. It is only those who walk the path, because what the church and the satanic religon called Christianity forgets to tell people is that Jesus says those who believe will walk the path.

Furthermore, Jesus himself says that if you do not love him, then you will hear the father, who will then send the holy spirit to teach you all things.

John 14: 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I know this is true because this is what I experienced. It is John 14 that tells of a person saved and born anew, as Jesus says you must be, not John 3:16 which only tells the purpose and reason Jesus came.

What the church gives you instead is idol worship. And that is what Paul does. Praises and builds up an idol to wave around and then distorts the meaning to the benefits of the prince of this world and the authorities of the time.

Jesus was more than just symbolic of truth, the way, and the life. He was all those things.

Is fine with me, I truly hope he is real. But the father never once mentioned Jesus or the bible to me. Instead, the father gave me the knowledge and wisdom and showed me the path. I had no idea Jesus even said such things at the time. I do not get my beliefs from the bible, I get them directly from the source, the father. I only even talk about the bible now because I am able to recognize the father in Jesus. IE: Jesus repeats and tells what I learned from the father. And as I have mentioned, Paul is the example of what I was shown not to do.

Since this thread has become mostly you and me, we should u2u oneanother if we're to continue this, I think. Just send me a message if you're interested.

No thanks. Nothing personal but I've already taken part in this same discussion many times, including a thread with over 90 pages. I already know the truth, and I knew it before I picked up the bible to begin with. My studies at this point are merely a matter of matching up what I learned with the bible as a better way of communicating with people.

I can easily keep on going about the manipulations of Paul. I only mentioned a few highlights in this thread. IMO, if you believe Paul then it's because you have yet to be born anew of the spirit, have yet to get the holy spirit and to be honest, there is nothing I can say that will change your mind until you do. I generally only post for the people who have ears, and there would be no ears in a private conversation. So I would only be interesting in a public conversation.




[edit on 24-2-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by prevenge
what if the second coming was actually the christ within each person capable of manifesting it.. started to wake up in them..

instead of one person coming back..

the "christ" returns.. but inside you.. and you become a completely pure spiritual being.. like your body actually changes and you emit your spirit and soul for all to see around you ..

i think people would accept that as truth.. because they wouldn't really be able to reject a "second coming" liek that now could they?

-

Good call.

More will "come", announce themselves as Christ, teach a while, work some miracles, and leave in a blaze of glory. The key is that they will always leave, leaving a trail of light for others to follow. If they are not leaving, they are not Christ. If they do not extend Christ to others, they are not Christ. Jesus extended Christ to others, ie.
"the Kingdom of God is within you"...
"Do not hide your light under a bushel"...
"we are one"...
"what you do to the least of these my brethren, you do to me"...
"Love your neighbor as yourSelf".

Jesus is the "firstfruits" of many to follow.
All will follow.
When all have left the world, the world will "pass away".
Christ's will always come and go in the same general pattern modeled by Jesus.
There is only one Christ.
Christ comes again everytime anyone accepts themselves as Christ.
Those who accept themselves as Christ see others as Christ.
Those who "see" Christ see "the light".
Anyone who sees the lights "sees", and is no longer "blind".
When anyone sees "the light" they are seeing the dawning of another world upon their minds.
Fully dawned, a Christ sees only Christ, and no more sees "the world".
The world that dawns upon their minds reflects [represents] Christ, in his true glory.

As a rule of thumb,
Christ is first "seen" as a "new" world hiding behind the "old" world.
In other words, "this world" hides the world of Christ.
To understand this, first understand that "the world" is a self-concept.
"The world" is how each of us sees himself.
That is, "the world" is how each of us sees Christ.
When we see a world of different bodies, we see Christ "crucified" and condemned.
When we see Christ, we see a world of gentleness, painless, loving, living, beautiful, and glorious.
There are no differences between anyone in the world of Christ.
All are perfect.
The world of Christ [not crucified] is "at hand".
This means, to see it, we merely open our eyes by reaching out for it, willingly...in faith and forgiveness.
To open our eyes, we must understand that what we currently "see" is an optical delusion of consciousness...faith-based images.
We see through mental filters...not eyes.
Eyes are designed to see deception.
Christ is first seen through mental filters through an open mind.
Minds must open to let the light in.
The light will show another world which reflects Heaven.
The "real" world shows Christ in his glory.
Heaven is Christ in all his original glory.
We walk through a reflection of Christ...another "real" world...on the way back to Heaven.
Then, Christ is known as Reality itself.
When Christ is known, perception ends.

To summerize:
Christ "comes" to those who open their eyes.
When they open their eyes, they "see" Christ...in others first, then in themselves.
This is a period of forgiveness and miracles.
After a while, Christ is all they see.
They "overcome the world" and leave.
They leave by opening their mind [walk out of a darkened tomb].
After a while after that, Christ is all they know.
Knowing Christ, they have gone to "know thySelf".
This is the way to "return to the Father".
This is the righteous path.

Christ!





[edit on 24-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Ant4AU
Short answer Jesus returning will be the rapture and it’s not going to last long enough for questions. Now the next person claiming to be Jesus or of that nature is going to be the Biblical Anti Christ.

Can you give the biblical verses for the rapture? Because to be honest, it doesn't make much sense to me. A personal rapture I could more easily believe.

The "rapture" is simply the resurrection.
The resurrection is the dawning of light upon one's mind.
The light shows Christ in all his glory.
This is "personal", meaning...
Only those who open their eyes can "see" Christ.
Anyone can see Christ anytime they choose to open their eyes.
Christ is the truth.
The truth is to be experienced directly.
Direct experience of the truth is, shall we say, rapturous.
Besides the general resurrection [awakening of mind], there may be "revelations".
A revelation is a brief trip to Heaven, so-to-speak.
A revelation is a preparation for resurrection.
A revelation is for those preparing to open their minds.
A revelation shows an aspirant the difference between Self [Heaven] and self-concepts [the world, hell].
A revelation is for helping an aspirant make a choice.
Salvation brings an aspirant to a choice.
Salvation presents an aspirant with a choice.
A revelation may occur pre-choice, to strengthen/empower choice.
When the choice is finally made, resurrection occurs immediately.
Resurrection is the dawning of the truth upon one's mind in direct exprience, full on.
Rapture or resurrection never comes unexpectedly, though revelation may.
At that point [resurrection], one knows himself as "the truth", and not as a man.
At that point, the "old man" is "dead" to "sin", and "alive to Christ".
Paul didn't really understand his own jargon.
Most of his jargon was stolen from those he prosecuted before being dumb-struck with a devilish compromise.
So Paul did not really understand "rapture", "resurrection", or "revelation" but by hearsay, interpreted to meet his own eschatological expectations relative to the school of Pharisee, of which he was a student.

Christ!




[edit on 24-2-2009 by Christ!]

Am I missing something ??

Where abouts in the bible does it mention the rapture, or was this something that was added much later ??

responding to the OP. I would always accept Christ. But I think we must remember that there will be many false christ at the end of times. We must make share we dont accept the Jesus. God bless.

Originally posted by colec156 What if "

A very good friend said to me:
"Maybe we are only mould behind the fridge."

Well, we can be everything. And so everything can be.

Your question "What if ..." only consists of 2 words ... but they challenge it all.

Greetings