Vatican attacks US abortion move

My mother was Catholic - but became involved in Positive Thought & Metaphysics in the early 50's.

My Irish Catholic grandmother - 5 feet of terror - who actually raised us while my mom worked - - tried her best to bring me up Catholic. She used to drag me to church every Sunday and some in-between.

Even at 5 years old - I was turned off by the rituals and pomp & circumstance. I found it and most of the people to be Fake. They were unfriendly and wrapped up in their own world of being a good Catholic - - but showed no compassion for others.

Interesting side note: the minister at my daughter's New Thought Spiritual church is a former Irish nun.

The Vatican has no business sticking their nose in the Rights of American women.

reply to post by donwhite

Now, Herr P/E, can you answer my questions?

You've already given your answer. Tell me, does bringing up something that happened a thousand years ago, have anything to do with this issue today?
Yes, I know Annee was talking to me, and it was BECAUSE I had addressed your post. It is amazing that she can tell me I'm off-topic, but she lets you go on and on, about something that has nothing to do with the OP concerning the Vatican's comments concerning Obama's abortion ruling. I guess it is alright to be off-topic, as long as you agree with her.

Why don't you bring up the slavery issue, in regards to the US today? That should even be more pertinent, as that was going on in the 1800's here in the US.

I have now exceeded the biblical "three score and ten" and I never felt better! Nor happier!

Look, you made your point. You, as a fallen-Catholic, hate the Church. You are a very "happy" person, although your anger towards the Vatican seems to belie that. Happy people don't usually exhibit 24 by 7 anger. But then again, by your own admission, you are a curmudgeon, which according to Merriam Webster is "a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man". Regardless, I will pray for you, just as I'm sure your family does. I also pray each night that mankind will stop the slaughter of innocent children.
Peace be with you.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Happy people don't usually exhibit 24 by 7 anger. But then again, by your own admission, you are a curmudgeon,

You can run but you cannot hide. Where is Cardinal Law today?

Here is the answer to those who think "choice" is the answer:

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Here is the answer to those who think "choice" is the answer:

Have you no shame? How low can you go? Disgraceful! Has the ANTI Choice movement got no honor at all? No self respect? That this morally bankrupt movement will stoop so low as to using a 12 year old child to "hawk" their wares. If I was a Juvenile Court judge I'd be looking to charge someone with child abuse. This poor girl has been programmed by a selfish group of misfits. Shame!

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by West Coast

 

And what do you mean furthering of the Human Species....like there's a need for more than 7 Billion people on the planet?

What do you think the Earth can just support any number of us? Were a species just like any other, and eventually were gonna have to stop having babies or there won't be enough to support all of us. Sorry to burst your bubble, but an ecosystem can only support so much of one species before i requires increase in OTHER species for balance.

Sorry to Burst your bubble "to the tenth power" but your facts are horribly inaccurate. Frankly I am becoming very tired of the whole overpopulation myth.

The sustaining rate for any population is 2.0 children per female of childbearing age. This number increases due to several factors described below.

"Replacement rates-

Replacement fertility is the total fertility rate at which newborn girls would have an average of exactly one daughter over their lifetimes. In more familiar terms, women have just enough babies to replace themselves.

If there were no mortality in the female population until the end of the childbearing years (generally taken as 44 or 49, though some exceptions exist) then the replacement level of TFR would be very close to 2.0 (actually slightly higher because of the excess of boy over girl births in human populations). However, the replacement level is also affected by mortality, especially childhood mortality. The replacement fertility rate is roughly 2.1 births per woman for most industrialized countries but ranges from 2.5 to 3.3 in developing countries because of higher mortality rates.[1] Taken globally, the total fertility rate at replacement is 2.33 children per woman. At this rate, global population growth would trend towards zero.

Developed countries usually have a much lower fertility rate due to greater wealth, education, and urbanization. Mortality rates are low, birth control is understood and easily accessible, and costs are often deemed very high because of education, clothing, feeding, and social amenities. Further, longer periods of time spent getting higher education often mean women have children later in life."

Source 1

See NRR and TFR
Source 2 Scroll down to find it

This deficiency in population growth leads to a dangerous situation in which the old outnumber the young.

In most societies the young outnumber the old. This is a very good thing because it allows the young, who are still working, to care for the elderly through social programs (i.e. Medicaid etc....)

However when the old outnumber the young the cost it takes to take care of this larger number of people becomes very difficult for this ever decreasing number of young people. (Decreasing as they get older and less new children are born to replace them.) Some nations foolishly then believe that their only option is to kill the elderly. The Netherlands is a prime example of this look at the number of deaths from Euthanasia every year. What they should be doing is encourage people to have larger families, this would mean more young people which would alleviate the economic strain on the young.

Another very serious concern of a low TFR is the fact that a nations population can actually shrink. Yes I said SHRINK.

www.economist.com...

Any country on this list, with below 2.0 TFR is Shrinking.

www.cia.gov...

Who keeps perpetuating this overpopulation myth? Is it some evil organization, a secret society, aliens, The NWO?..... Probably not, in fact I attribute the continuation of the overpopulation myth to ignorance of the facts

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Studious]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

 

Here is the answer to those who think "choice" is the answer:

Have you no shame? How low can you go? Disgraceful! Has the ANTI Choice movement got no honor at all? No self respect? That this morally bankrupt movement will stoop so low as to using a 12 year old child to "hawk" their wares. If I was a Juvenile Court judge I'd be looking to charge someone with child abuse. This poor girl has been programmed by a selfish group of misfits. Shame!

I find YOUR comments "donwhite" to be disturbing.

You have no evidence to suggest that this 12-year old was forced to make these statements. For all we know it could have been her choice to. You are making a very bold claim that she was somehow coerced, and that some form of abuse has occurred.

If you have any real evidence then I apologize and ask that you bring that evidence to law enforcement.

If you have no real evidence please refrain from making bold claims by posting uninformed comments that are not backed up by any evidence.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Studious]

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

 

Here is the answer to those who think "choice" is the answer:

Have you no shame? How low can you go? Disgraceful! Has the ANTI Choice movement got no honor at all? No self respect? That this morally bankrupt movement will stoop so low as to using a 12 year old child to "hawk" their wares. If I was a Juvenile Court judge I'd be looking to charge someone with child abuse. This poor girl has been programmed by a selfish group of misfits. Shame!

HA HA HA HA HA You advocate the killing of innocent babies and YOU think you got room to be saying shame on you to anyone!

NO NOT Prof. BUT DO YOU have no shame? Oh we already no that don't we. Your arrogance is astounding Don. Hell, I knew by the time I was five that killing babies was wrong.

Shame on Prof. ?

Gimme a break LOL

Originally posted by Studious

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

 

Here is the answer to those who think "choice" is the answer:

Have you no shame? How low can you go? Disgraceful! Has the ANTI Choice movement got no honor at all? No self respect? That this morally bankrupt movement will stoop so low as to using a 12 year old child to "hawk" their wares. If I was a Juvenile Court judge I'd be looking to charge someone with child abuse. This poor girl has been programmed by a selfish group of misfits. Shame!

I find YOUR comments "donwhite" to be disturbing.

You have no evidence to suggest that this 12-year old was forced to make these statements. For all we know it could have been her choice to. You are making a very bold claim that she was somehow coerced, and that some form of abuse has occurred.

If you have any real evidence then I apologize and ask that you bring that evidence to law enforcement.

If you have no real evidence please refrain from making bold claims by posting uninformed comments that are not backed up by any evidence.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Studious]

He has been reading too many of Dickie Dawkins books saying raising your children with religion is child abuse.

reply to post by Studious

Developed countries usually have a much lower fertility rate due to greater wealth, education, and urbanization. Mortality rates are low, birth control is understood and easily accessible, and costs are often deemed very high because of education, clothing, feeding, and social amenities. Further, longer periods of time spent getting higher education often mean women have children later in life." Frankly I am becoming very tired of the whole overpopulation myth.

“Developed countries” have replaced children with social security. And industrialization. The former made possible by the latter. As a result we have given up the FAMILY that sustained humanity for 10s of 1000s of years. We are new into this way, and it may prove to be unsustainable.

I have Iranian friends who still abide the extended family concept. Their extended family numbers around 300. They meet once every three years. For about a week. Such items as arranging marriages, selecting bright children to sent away to school. Consulting on business and politics. Perhaps making a loan to a eager entrepreneur whose ideas are sound. It’s not all bad.

As for the denial of overpopulation, as if Gaza was not example enough, I put those people in the same class as the Global Warming denial types. "Tell me anything but the truth if you please." Not exactly beating a dead horse, but worse, trying to ride a dead horse!

reply to post by Studious

You have no evidence to suggest that this 12-year old was forced to make these statements. For all we know it could have been her choice to. You are making a very bold claim that she was somehow coerced, and that some form of abuse has occurred.

Decent, self-respecting people do NOT engage children in their adult arguments.

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by Studious

 

Developed countries usually have a much lower fertility rate due to greater wealth, education, and urbanization. Mortality rates are low, birth control is understood and easily accessible, and costs are often deemed very high because of education, clothing, feeding, and social amenities. Further, longer periods of time spent getting higher education often mean women have children later in life." Frankly I am becoming very tired of the whole overpopulation myth.

“Developed countries” have replaced children with social security. And industrialization. The former made possible by the latter. As a result we have given up the FAMILY that sustained humanity for 10s of 1000s of years. We are new into this way, and it may prove to be unsustainable.

I have Iranian friends who still abide the extended family concept. Their extended family numbers around 300. They meet once every three years. For about a week. Such items as arranging marriages, selecting bright children to sent away to school. Consulting on business and politics. Perhaps making a loan to a eager entrepreneur whose ideas are sound. It’s not all bad.

As for the denial of overpopulation, as if Gaza was not example enough, I put those people in the same class as the Global Warming denial types. "Tell me anything but the truth if you please." Not exactly beating a dead horse, but worse, trying to ride a dead horse!

But you haven't really said anything to refute his argument Don, you just spouted off some opinions

Originally posted by donwhite
reply to post by Studious

 

You have no evidence to suggest that this 12-year old was forced to make these statements. For all we know it could have been her choice to. You are making a very bold claim that she was somehow coerced, and that some form of abuse has occurred.

Decent, self-respecting people do NOT engage children in their adult arguments.

But its perfectly OK to slice em up or stick a shiv through their occipital bone killing them. You one to talk

reply to post by Studious



US population 305,849,064, 02/19/09 (increases at 201,200 per month).
www.census.gov...

World population 02/01/09, 6,757,540,531 (currently increases at 7 million per month). www.census.gov...

"donwhite" your articles of U.S population growth are real because of two reasons

1. The population growth of the United States is 2.1 which is above the 2.0 lowest maintenance level. (A stable TFR is 2.1)

2. Immigration is also included in the census (legal immigration) which also contributes to the growth of the United States.

"Europe's population is expected to decrease from 728 million now to 658 million by 2050, due to declining birth rates." June 8, 2000- ENN/AP

www.overpopulation.org...

www.grist.org...

www.amren.com...

Japanese Population Shrinking BBC

Japan Persuading Families to have Children- BBC

Europe BBC

Italy -BBC

"No EU country has the 2.1 birthrate needed to keep a population stable"-BBC


The below list shows all countries TFR rates any nation below 2.0 is shrinking. (Unless immigration props up the numbers. But immigration would only detract the total population of someplace else.)

www.cia.gov...

The below image shows TFR on a map by country "Dark Blue" countries on the map are shrinking.



A description of TFR can be found below.

Simple TFR Description

Many in the United States seems to have the false idea that the population is is too large when in fact in may be too small. The industrialized developed world is shrinking while the developing world is growing.

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Studious]

[edit on 19-2-2009 by Studious]

reply to post by Studious

The population growth of the United States is 2.1 which is above the 2.0 lowest maintenance level. (A stable TFR is 2.1) No EU country has the 2.1 birthrate . . The below list shows all countries TFR rates any nation below 2.0 . . The below image shows TFR on a map . . A description of TFR can be found . . Simple TFR Description . . Many in the United States seems to have the false idea that the population is is too large when in fact in may be too small.

I am reminded of an 11th grade girl infatuated with her teacher and who just learned what TFR stands for! "Fertility" being the operative word! Gee Whiz! You are what they say in the old country, TOO smart by half!


[edit on 2/19/2009 by donwhite]

Rationalizing & Denying over population

There are no words.

---------

In the immortal words of Gloria Vanderbilt - "Of course I was coached - I was a child"

12 = child.

Originally posted by Annee
Rationalizing & Denying over population

There are no words.

---------

In the immortal words of Gloria Vanderbilt - "Of course I was coached - I was a child"

12 = child.

In the final words of baby Jane Doe - "Of course I was murdered - I was a child"

Fetus = child. RIP you poor innocent soul .


Yeah annee can sweep every man under the bus as if they were the scum of thr earth, make up excuses for her womb being invaded behind the guise of spirituality, use every double standard one could POSSIBLY think of while she is perfectly calm and collected as she has her own son or daughter executed in ways we don't even lower ourselves to when putting the family dog down.

But Rationalizing and denying the population growth!!!!

NOW THAT'S GOING OVER THE LINE!

Good Grief,,


[edit on 19-2-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi

Hi Friend. I just signed on, and see you're replying to donwhite. I finally put him on my "ignore" list because he couldn't refute my posts, but he kept asking about what the Church allegedly did in the first millenium. His claims are so outrageous, that it doesn't even pay to discuss anything with him. He can't refute the charges of murder, so he started attacking the church and it's rules of over 1,000 years ago.
BTW, the 12-year old girl is a student, and she chose this topic and did her own research, which was a class assignment. She did the entire thing herself, but because of age, her name cannot be released or any information about her.
The only thing her mother would say was this:

"My daughter prepared and delivered this speech for her grade 7 class. Even those who didn't agree with her loved it,” writes the anonymous poster of the video.

She was not put up to it, and strongly believes in the pro-life case.
Of course, the abortionists are claiming that she is too young to be speaking about such issues. I guess even 12 year olds don't have any rights, in their opinion. What is the next step for abortionists? Will they say because the mother raises and feeds her, they control her and... you know the next step...
God bless this young woman. She is very courageous.

www.speroforum.com...

reply to post by Aermacchi

Yeah annee can sweep every man under the bus as if they were the scum of the earth, make up excuses for her womb being invaded behind the guise of spirituality, use every double standard one could POSSIBLY think of while she is perfectly calm and collected as she has her own son or daughter executed in ways we don't even lower ourselves to when putting the family dog down.

If we had it to do over, Roe v. Wade, 1973, we’d make it a CRIMINAL VIOLATION of the law for any MALE person to utter, speak or write anything about ABORTIONS or pregnant women. From the Vatican DOWN there is nothing any MAN can contribute that is useful to the subject. Ref. this thread. Only pompous repetitious rantings.

Ah, if we knew then what we know now, we could have moved on over the past 35 years to SAVE the lives of LIVING children. Of which the fanatical fringe element has no cognizance. 16,000 dead children every day. I mean live, walking around human beings. Not a pregnant woman on the “if come” line.

Uh, Mr A, if you talk with Herr P/E, ask him if he knows what hunky job His Eminence Bernard Cardinal Law was awarded by Pope John Paul 2 when he fled the US to Italy.


[edit on 2/19/2009 by donwhite]