Sumerian tales versus the bible

After reading through this thread and a ton of really bad information from more than a few contributors, and some good info from others, I feel it best for you to decide for yourself. Here is a link to about 400 translated tablets that you can read and compare to the bible. Gotta love the guys at Oxford for putting this together. This should get you started on your own research =)

Oxford does Sumeria!

I spent about half this thread yelling at my screen because a lot of the information was just.. meh...

~Druidae

Simple thing really since you are asking advice...

Keep your faith and just research all other past doctrine and history with an open educated mind.

Having faith is not a bad thing...it is only hindered with narrow mindedness.

do not close off to other ideas just cause you have a faith.

this comes from someone who does not follow religion but studies many religions and beliefs with great vigor.

Please Let Us Be Enilightened

Originally posted by theresult
reply to post by illece

 

The truth is inside you and so is your faith...

Very true. And Im not sure if anyone had said this before but, 2 verses:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.- John 1:1

and

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.- Matthew 24:35

Here's a tip, search inside yourself for the answer don't let anybody else infer their own "wisdom" on the matter.

To be honest, I don't know a lot on the topic, other than the Sumerian texts were definitely written before the bible... but this has already been expressed.

I just wanted to thank the contributor who put up the Oxford translation of the Gilgamesh Epic. So Thank you! I'm going to favorite this, and then get into some amazing reading.

Ona personal note: To anyone who truly digs into the history of the bible and other historical and spiritual based readings, you'll soon discover that trying to be part of organized religion is nearly impossible. I do have a solid belief in a greater power that brought some sort of existence, but I don't believe this creator really cares about the individual creatures of the universe.
If you think about it from a purely logical point of view, the notion that we (earth) are the only living beings in the universe, you don't understand the basic fundamentals of probability. This said, there are possibly millions of planets with life, and a couple thousand with intelligent life. I don't think "God" will really want to deal with sooo many different personalities at the same time, and if "God" does do this... then "God" is truly the most... well, EVERYTHING

It certainly is a door you can't go back through.

However, here's some questions to ask yourself:

1: On what does the Christian church base it's belief/dogma that the Bible is the infallible, inspired, defy it at your peril Word of the Almighty God from first verse to last and everything inbetween?

2: If someone lies about me, if someone organises a group of people to go out and kill people in my name, without my permission, request or approval, who carries the blame for that?

3: Which is better: to seek earnestly and honestly to find out the truth, or to blindly stake eternity on the word of someone who wants money off me every month or their income will fall?

4: If something actually happens, then 5 people all write down their own versions of it, and all those versions end up telling the same story in a different way, what value do any of those stories have? Must 1 be true and all others false, or do we accept that each version gives us a different perspective on the same event?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by TheIrvy]

Originally posted by illece
I don't know if i have posted in the right section,but i really would like to know which was written first Sumerian tales or the bible ,i am really struggling with my christian believes due to this subject!!

There are more than 600 flood stories from cultures all over the globe.

The Sumarians didn't exist until after the flood.

There was a post-Babal five way split...

1. Phoenicea aka Sumeria or Canaan
2. Mizraim - Egypt XI Dynasty
3. Chaldea - Ur was the capital and Abraham came from here.
4. Greece (Attica, Arcadia, Sparta)
5. China - 1st Hiah Dynasty.

All five civilizations arose about the same time.

Abraham later came out of Ur of Chaldea and had lived in the household of the aging Noah while a boy...
...so Abraham was contemporary with the Sumarians and their stories...
...which were just different versions of the same Noah event...
...that changed like a Chinese whisper as it was retold within each split.

The biblical record of the event was written about 430 years after Abraham came out of Ur...
...it was written then by Moses in the preamble to the Torah...
...but it would have been passed down verbally...
...from Abraham to son Isaac and grandson Jacob (who was renamed Israel)...
...The Children of Israel are then the offspring of Abe's grandson Jacob (aka Israel).

So of course there are similarities between the Sumarian stories and the Biblical stories.



[edit on 3/8/10 by troubleshooter]

Originally posted by TheIrvy
It certainly is a door you can't go back through.

However, here's some questions to ask yourself:

1: On what does the Christian church base it's belief/dogma that the Bible is the infallible, inspired, defy it at your peril Word of the Almighty God from first verse to last and everything inbetween?

2: If someone lies about me, if someone organises a group of people to go out and kill people in my name, without my permission, request or approval, who carries the blame for that?

3: Which is better: to seek earnestly and honestly to find out the truth, or to blindly stake eternity on the word of someone who wants money off me every month or their income will fall?

4: If something actually happens, then 5 people all write down their own versions of it, and all those versions end up telling the same story in a different way, what value do any of those stories have? Must 1 be true and all others false, or do we accept that each version gives us a different perspective on the same event?

[edit on 3-8-2010 by TheIrvy]

Alot of us/christians don't follow through as we should. For us to take a stance of knowing all or more is heretical in itself. I would like to address your points.

1) Infallible is generally used by the Pope, without error to the faithful. The Catholic Doctrine differs so much that folks that study the Bible believe it to part of Mystery Babylon. I cannot see that the Bible is without error, yet I reserve judgement and typically find my understanding was "shallow" at that point. Generally speaking, written in 3 languages. Just to tranlate it, even with the very best scholars because languages just don't translate 1 to 1. We are even instructed not to add to or change anything in the book.

2) Obviously, the folks who scheme, plot and kill of their own intentions should be held responsible for the act. In the old Testament, God instructing to wipe out a nation - all of it? He might use G Bush to judge Iraq, or Obama to judge America. If He created it all, He can take it away. We know not the time or place.

3) Always ernestly seek the truth. Jesus even said "the truth shall set you free", yet also said "he is the way, truth and the light. more on this at the bottom.

3b) Money should not be a driving factor. Jesus mentioned obeying the law/the Word as primary to giving. The PTL network is littered with many(not all) Word of Faith folks teaching God as a force and Mike Murdoch's faith and money multiplication antics. The religious channels or no less effected than the national news on getting the "real story".

4) Multiple stories often used a few ways. Matt, Mark, Luke for example. They seem to cater to different audiences, one basic to the point, one more story like, another more philosophic. Could be that God in his infinite wisdom wanted everyone to understand it.

4b) Old testament to New testament same story. The old testament really was written for the Jewish folks, Christian pastors/flock have only lately come to see the deep rooted traditons with this tribe of man. For the Jew, he still has everything necessary in the old testament for salvation. The O.T. still showing a tribulation and wrath to come.

4c) The new testament really reveals the rest of us that didn't understand the O.T. the way of salvation. The stories don't necessarily conflict, and we believe that God shows us things, sometimes a voice, strong impressions usually given 2 or 3 times. Yet, we have to "test the spirits" every time, does it conflict with scripture, does it harm self or other. Many say God told them this or that and that lack discernment, even the best sometimes - we are not perfect.

more below....

The kicker for a christian. Most of us believe the story of man is approximately 6000 yrs. But can I deny it was 12,000-15,000? NO
Could be the Adam/Eve story was meant only to show us how we could not govern ourselves, peacefully, in any form or fashion. Yet through a true love of God be transformed and eventually returned to the Adam/Eve state before they knew sin and had to "cover themselves".

A christian would have a hard time knowing more truth without studying government, military, other religions, music, E.T.'s, space, new-age, etc...

We have to sift through it all, Michael Tsarion, Alex Jones, Lucas, Bill Cooper, Chuck Missler. David Icke, the Pope. All have some truth, some much more than others. But test it (don't don't mean trying things that may take you places not good), compare it, confirm.

Truth isn't winning an argument here, for me, you or anyone else. Test even my reply.

And let me apologize for my brothers/sisters were we are wrong? We screw up also, I hope you can forgive.

Oh, last thing, there is no perfect church down the street, many fallen off the true message and others cold - hope now you can understand why we hope for Messiah to bring us into a better place.

God bless

Originally posted by Hanslune
Howdy Clearskies

The Bible was Orally passed down generations before it was written down!

Hans: Ah we agree, how long ago those stories were thought up is not known but they do seem to reflect certain aspects of Sumerian stories.

Not only Sumerian, but Egyptian, Indian, etc. The newer the text is more collage like it looks in my opinion. And the Bible certainly looks a lot more like a collage of different works than other texts where we know that the physical evidence is older than the Bible.

For me most of these texts came from a common source (written or oral) at some point in time and were then adapted to the cultural context of of where they were being passed on.

reply to post by hootieowl


You totally missed the point of my post. I was not asking for answers to my questions, I've already researched them and know the answers. You've given me some very nice party line church answers. Go away now and find out the truth.

reply to post by illece


I spent several years studying this subject.

1. The Sumerian stories are much older. Sumerian civilization predates any Semitic civilization by several thousands of years in the most conservative of estimates. The earliest tablets are in Old Babylonian (Sumerian) a language that wasn't even discovered until relatively recently in modern history. Hebrew, by contrast, or Akkadian (first semitic language), or Arameic are all languages that evolved much later. Since writing existed along with the earliest Sumerian civilization it is a very poor argument to say that the Hebrew didn't write it down but they thought of it first. They weren't even around.

2. Christian "scholars" have spread an enormous amount of misinformation on the similarities between Genesis and the Sumerian Enuma Elish and Atra Hasis but if you read either of the Sumerian epics and are at all familiar with the Bible you will see that all the Christian arguments are not only empty but also highly defensive and irrational, mostly relying on speculation and misinformation. They are especially off on dates (as they tend to be -sse the argument that the earth is only 6,000 years old, for example, way off but all the same, persistent). If you read academic scholars, who are very cautious on the subject, you will find that there is no question about the fact that the Hebrew texts were distortions of Sumerian tales, which, by the way, was not unusual in ancient Mesopotamia. There is also the giveway word Elohim (a plural, meaning gods) and the fact that god, in Genesis, talks to himself persuasively as you would only see a madman do, trying to persuade his alter ego into something. However if you read the Sumerian epics you will see that what was put into the mouth of the Genesis god was in fact a conversation occurring between the god Enki and the god Enlil.

3. The early gnostic Christ figure had nothing to do with what we believe to be the story today. This Christmas, I'm going to post a sign: Happy Birthday Tammuz/Marduk/Adonis/Mitrhas/Horus, which is what today's Christians believe to be the Christ story. It has been around since at least 3,000 BC and there is scholarly evidence to show that there was a movement behind distorting the early Christianity message towards the Egyptian Hermetic cult (see Giordano Bruno) which was itself derived from the Sumerian Tammuz cult.

4. For those who think that reading this information changes or invalidates religion or spirituality, I disagree. What got me interested in the subject is the monomyth. (See Joseph Campbell) In search of the earliest monomyth I read just about every last major mythology known to man. It is inexplicable, in my opinion, how the trinity continues to develop over the ages, how the myth persists in culture and society regardless of whatever other major changes occur. There is the ingrained understanding that the god/goddess/son (or, in the LATE Christian version, god/holy spirit/son) pervades all known religions, mythologies, and narratives. If you search within, you will probably find that you have some god/goddess/son in your own fantasies and dreams.

5. There is no question that religion has been misused to control people. All the same, there is something at the heart of it: what, I'm not exactly sure. I'm trying to find out.

For the people who always ask for proof: I have been scouring scholarly journals and books for the past 3 years as well as reading sacred texts and learning Sumerian. I have plenty of "evidence." I'm not interested in entering a tired discussion. If you want proof, go to a library and look it up for yourself. Start with the texts themselves, then move to the scholars like Samuel Kramer, etc. Good luck to you.

PS: Nimrod is NOT Gilgamesh. He is Ninurta.

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.- John 1:1

The word "G-o-d" did not exist in the English language until 1610. There were other words used prior to that.

How did the word "G-o-d" get created in the English language? Pulled straight from someone's rear. It was made up in 1610 and did not come from any ancient scrolls or books.

This is the 400th Anniversary for that new made up word.

reply to post by illece


Biblical beliefs are MUCH older than the written records of them, and correlations between those and older works are due to other cultures using the same ideas, with information not entirely accurate included. Many groups will attempt to convince people that the Bible borrowed information from older works, but that isn't true. God was there before time began, and He is where your faith should be. Trust in that. Concrete proof won't help you.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


But then what was there before God? Anti-God? I do believe in a greater power, but I don't believe this power created everything... but then again, I don't have a good answer for what created the original particle.

I think God and Aliens beings are (from a religious stand point) one-in-the-same. Why else would all these beliefs of beings descending from the "heavens"exist? God, if God is the all-power being as we have given him label, is able to do ANY and EVERYTHING, then why would God need messengers? God should be able to speak to the heart, soul, and mind of every creature without the aide of an intermediary. This need of angelic messengers is in complete contradiction with the teachings in the bible.

God would not need any help from any being to transmit His thoughts. No would he have needed to send Jesus to clean our sins. AND He would not need to have a battle with the Devil since Satan is a direct creation under His power and control. The bible is one big hypocritical story of wielding power over those that need to be controlled.

If you honestly believe that we need to believe in something, then religion is made especially for you. That's the point of religion. Look back through the ages and you will see this truth 100%; the people that were in power were always aligned with the church (or directly opposed to the leaders of the church, yet claiming to be for God). This is because the general people NEED something to believe in, otherwise depression and anarchy set in. THIS is why religion, or general spirituality, is so central to ALL societies.

Don't give in to religious dogma... think for yourself and you will soon see the real God in your heart. He does not care about the banners you fly in His name... only that you believe. Say what you want, but this is the most logical answer anyone can give to the enigma that is God.

Originally posted by Seitler
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

But then what was there before God?...
...God, if God is the all-power being as we have given him label, is able to do ANY and EVERYTHING, then why would God need messengers?...

...

God was, is, and always has been. Easier to imagine that than to imagine nothing, IMO.

He doesn't need messengers; we do. He created beings to have someone to love, and that's why He came as a man, and died in our place. Jesus wasn't sent by God; Jesus IS God.

reply to post by theindependentjournal

The Bible was WRITTEN long before any sumerian tales were published or written.

OP, refuse to listen to this tripe. Just another religious nut who will do anything to keep you in the cult, even tell big fat lies.

The Sumerians, with a language, culture, and, perhaps, appearance different from their Semitic neighbors and successors were at one time believed to have been invaders, but the archaeological record shows cultural continuity from the time of the early Ubaid period (5200-4500 BC C-14, 6090-5429 calBC) settlements in southern Mesopotamia.

Source
Ancient Babylon is spoken of in the Bible as if it were an ancient city already, well established. Christians are frantically grasping at straws these days, and saying anything to maintain their power over the people. Well, the People of the World are waking up at long last to the lies of the Church, and religion is on a downhill slide to destruction. Enjoy it while you still can. You simply cannot dumb down people forever.

Sumerian Questions and Answers

Sumerian Gods

Ancient Sumarians and Planet X

Even the Biblical God Yahweh was an Annunaki, as were the other Gods and Goddesses in the Bible. The bible is simply a retelling of an earlier tale, with some differences to reflect religious dogma. How this has helped you on your quest for truth, OP.

reply to post by sir_chancealot

But do not think that the bible borrows from sumerian tales, because they do not.

Really? Care to explain the Flood story then. Gilgamesh told it first. And what about the Biblical Gods? Can you prove they were not taken from earlier tales of the Annunaki, an ET race recorded by the Sumerians? Let's see your evidence, man!

reply to post by Hanslune


Yes, I was reading about the a few days ago. Seems like everyone is trying to cash in on the Jesus Myth.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


SOMEONE TO LOVE!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?

If God loves us so much, then why would God allow us to continuously let us harm ourselves? Again, hypocritical. Like a parent, you teach your kids by letting them learn by experience, BUT if that child is not getting it on their own then it is the responsibility of the parent to teach the kid the proper way. WHERE IS OUR TEACHER? Jesus... don't kid yourself. If Jesus was really the Son of God (thus God Himself) then we would not be having these problems. (Not to mention, God is above emotions....)

Trust me, the God you cling to is a fallacy... and to say that the bible is the word of God is without truth. Please, show me where the bible comes before the Qu'ran. Even previous biblical scholars have admitted that the Qu'ran is the predecessor of the bible. If you don't believe this, then you need to read the Qu'ran and the Bible. They are VERY close to identical in the Old Testament era.

reply to post by Aldolas

Bull! History was written by men using their own point of view or good intentions. There are words in the original hebrew bible that have no translation to english. On top of that, there are several books banned from the Bible because the Catholic church believes we cant handle what the truth is. When writing of the King James translation of the Holy Bible, The Apocalypse of Peter was in consideration for what is now the Book of Revelations.