Do skeptics ever get tired of trying to disprove everything that is amazing?

There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can go and get a thrill from people telling weird stories. Head on over to:

www.godlikeproductions.com
www.zetatalk.com

... or any of the other places were skepticism is actively discouraged, and any nutty story or idea is encouraged regardless how silly it may be.

Hey, I like fiction as much as the next guy. But there are actually strange and unexplained things to be explored in the world, that would be interesting to find out about, without a lot of nonsense and stupidity clouding the water.

reply to post by sensfan


Again...I agree we need skeptics. I dont know how many times I can say it. BUT...people who try and tear threads down and attack people for believing is what I am talking about.

Posts like that just take away from the conversation. Say someone has a great idea that would change the world and is about to post it and sees that the OP is getting attacked for his beliefs and Ideas. That person might say ehhhh screw it I will just be made fun of and attacked. That is what im talking about.

One more time so their is no confusion. I welcome skeptics with something constructive to say. I am just fed up with people who cant think outside the box and attack everything that doesn't agree with them.

The nature of this world and reality is change. Our scientific models and theory's are evolving constantly and we understand a little more each day. An open mind is essential. The people who are afraid of this evolution and feel they have to stifle peoples creativity and attack them are my problem.
I am just asking them to think before methodically lashing out at every new idea. I am trying to help them open up a bit. Is that so wrong?

If those that want to discuss the "nonsense", the "bull", the "utter nonsense", and some join in with CONSTRUCTIVE skepticisim, Im all for it. A good honest, CIVIL debate is healthy, productive and can unfold alot of information for both sides of the subject.

But as I pointed out in another thread, there is a HUGE difference between constructive skepticisim and outright discussion disruption.

There has been ALOT of discussion disruption lately. Not creative skeptical assertsion, but destructive skeptical sideswiping of the flow of the topic.

There IS a difference. And the difference can be spotted the second it begins. And in each case, the discussion flow is broken, and that is why a week later we see the subject get brought up again by another member who was not a part of the first discussion, but is ripe target game for those same disruptive skeptics to do their sideswipping all over again.

This forum is supposed to be for discussion of all sides of the subjects put forth..not favor one or the other or condone certian posters over others. That is BIASED and clearly an uneven playing field.

I and a few other members went through this very thing last night on the thread #1 Mars. The "broken record"..as I like to refer one particular skepitc, had made a valid injection at the begining of the discussion, and only ONE. Every post after that, was "bull", "nonesense", "utter crap" and on and on and on...just like a broken record. This poster was NOT there to contribute anything further in as far as constructive skepticisim, but just the opposite, to blaintanly disrupt the conversation of those who WANTED to discuss the "nonsense" and "bull".

I welcome contributable skepticism in discussions I am participating in. I was once a very skeptical person about much of the stuff found out here in ATS..alot of it. But I decided one day to open my mind and at least CONSIDER the possibilities.

Just as the skeptics go around claiming "if it was not for us you wouldnt know reality"....the adventurous and curious have the right to explore the "nonesense" and "bull" as well without needing someone shoving repeating, non-contributing skepticisim in their face every other post!

And if it were not for those interested in discussing the "nonsense" and "bull", the skeptics would have nothing to be skeptical about!

Its kind of a win/win thing there...ya?


It all goes hand in hand. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. No side can admit they cannot do without the other. But BOTH sides can do without the non-contributing 2 cents worth.



Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by mellisamouse

Originally posted by sensfan Every thread needs skeptics, or people with other points of view. If you didn't have that, all you would have would be people agreeing with everything you say, what fun is that?

Yes, SKEPTICS, but not trolls putting everyone down.

But this thread name refers to skeptics in a derogatory sense...not trolls. Once again, one can't put up a fuzzy thread title and then complain when it is challenged.

Originally posted by Nohup
But there are actually strange and unexplained things to be explored in the world, that would be interesting to find out about, without a lot of nonsense and stupidity clouding the water.

Wow.......mabey the "stop talking, and spew out abuse" trolls get a lot more in the way to some.......nonsense and stupidity is people spewing out mean names and making judgements about people that have NOTHING to do with the topic, because they want to talk about something.

That is just my logic regarding things...unfortunatly this thread even though FILLED with reason, now has ade me want to take leave of it......

So many threads are killed and abandoned, only to be re-hashed over and over and over, because so much conversation get squashed, that there is no ponit in reading them or adding anything.

THEN they complain that the same subjects keep comming up, but if they would be respected and passed on by these people so they could GO somewhere, mabey we wouldn't see 50 threads started on exactly the same topics over and over again.





Edited to add: sorry if it is a bit of a repeat, I see 3 of us were typing at the same time and made the same points.



[edit on 5-12-2008 by mellisamouse]

reply to post by bringthelight


I don't mind skepticism. I just don't think most people who claim to be skeptics know what skepticism means. It is about questioning, not debunking.

Questioning allows for an open-ended discussion. It enables progress to be made. It encourages discovery.

Debunking is stating that something cannot be true or is most-likely not true and asking someone else to "prove it."

Other than simple math, very little can be proven. Science is about discovery. It is growing, expanding, refining, but it is never static or stagnant. Science asks questions without knowing the answer. In fact, the answer isn't even the point. It is the discovering, the step by step walk into a vast frontier not knowing if you will ever return. Science is for the bold.

What some of these debunkers do is attempt to make it impossible for discovery to happen by using fallacious arguments like "appeal to ridicule" and a sliding scale of criteria to shut down anyone who has an idea a little different from most.

By the James Randi standards Galileo would have been screwed just as quickly as he was in front of the Catholic inquiry. Isaac Newton, too. These men had not the equipment to make their case, nor people willing to give up their reputations (or life) to side with them. They had a logical assumption and an internal compass that told them they were right.

Skepticism is good. Skepticism is helpful. Asking: why do you think this? Have you considered...? What about the idea of...? Who is this person and what is their background?

Skepticism is not asking someone to prove it. That's an inquisition. Skepticism is helpful. It generates new ideas.

Also, there is a cruelty to debunking that I find hard to witness. Some of the people, surely, that they are debunking do believe these events have taken place (abductions, for example), some are in a very vulnerable place. Going after them with ferocity doesn't make some of these so-called skeptics appear smarter, in fact, they appear smaller in my estimation.

It is one thing to tell Angelina Jolie that she is ugly, and another thing to tell a conjoined twin. One adheres to a standard of beauty accepted by society, the other is held to one that is rejected. If would be one thing to attack the views of a Carl Sagan and another to attack an individual who claims to be an abductee.

Now, I'm not the board police. I just offer up my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by mellisamouse

Originally posted by sensfan Every thread needs skeptics, or people with other points of view. If you didn't have that, all you would have would be people agreeing with everything you say, what fun is that?

Yes, SKEPTICS, but not trolls putting everyone down.

But this thread name refers to skeptics in a derogatory sense...not trolls. Once again, one can't put up a fuzzy thread title and then complain when it is challenged.

I didn't start the thread, I am aloud to welcome skeptics and be disgusted by trolls if I want to!

reply to post by Nohup


If this forum was specifically for the provable, the undeniable, the factual and the no strangeness allowed, it would be plainly written in big bold letters in the forum rules.


I do not see that within the rules of becoming a member of ATS.


Do you?



Cheers!!!!

reply to post by Rintendo


Well put. As I stated, CONSTRUCTIVE skepticisim is a welcomed addition to a subject being discussed.


But outright discussion DISRUPTION is clearly not.


Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by mellisamouse
So many threads are killed and abandoned, only to be re-hashed over and over and over, because so much conversation get squashed, that there is no ponit in reading them or adding anything.

I find that most threads are killed or abandoned because they run out of good material to debate. They run out of substance, and all we end up with are people jumping in with opinions that can't be backed up with anything substantial.

Sure, everybody has an opinion. A photo is posted, and somebody jumps in and says, "Hey, I believe this is a real photo of a nuclear weapon blowing up the WTC," "Or so much for those evil people at NASA/The Pentagon/The NSA trying to keep everything a secret!" Fine. That's an opinion. Got anything new to add to the discussion, or anything to back that up? No? Well, then the thread has run its course.

I wouldn't worry too much about quashed threads or topics, though. Everything has a chance to get reassessed and rehashed, because nearly every topic pops back up here in cycles of about every three months. Plenty of time to argue things over and over and over. Maybe some new, significant, real material will pop up we can all debate. Maybe not. Probably not.

[edit on 5-12-2008 by Nohup]

Originally posted by RFBurns
If this forum was specifically for the provable, the undeniable, the factual and the no strangeness allowed, it would be plainly written in big bold letters in the forum rules.


I do not see that within the rules of becoming a member of ATS.


Do you?

I think you're missing the point. This forum is all about the unusual and the strange. And new topics pop up all the time. I'm all for it.

But I would certainly prefer those topics to have at least some small shred of weight to them that can be reasonably debated. Then we might actually get a quality discussion, rather than just a lot of mutual hand waving.

People are free to post whatever they want, within the stated rules of the forum. Likewise, people are also free to take reasonable exception to what anyone posts, which includes challenging the poster to back up what they're saying with some kind of evidence or logic.

I suggest that disagreement and challenge is what gives a discussion whatever value it might have. Without it, all we'd have here is a church meeting where everybody agrees, bows their heads, and chants the same prayers. Personally, I don't like churches. I think they're boring.

reply to post by Nohup


True. I have also seen alot of abandoned threads that were filled with disruptive sideswipping too. Odd too that if you track the sideswippers nic's in those abandoned threads, and see the newer active threads containing the same sideswipping, amazingly..the same nic's are there doing the sideswipping.

One poster pointed out that sektpicisim should be adding to the topic, "what bout this information"..or "can you provide some footnote on your assertion, here is what I found" etc. I too have said that this is constructive, not desctructive.

Obviously there are gonna be skeptics out there that get so bent out of shape and have their hair curled all up into a tangled furball because they cannot stand seeing what they call nonsense up on the forum.

But you know what else is quite odd....

..I have not seen as much destructive skepticisim on other forum threads as much as I have seen on the Aline/UFO forum. And there are just as much "bull" and "nonsense" threads in the other forums as there are in the Alien/UFO forum.....curious..isnt it.

It would seem to me, that constructive skepticisim would be even across all of the forums, and often there is. But oddly enough, the DESTRUCTIVE skepticisim seems to be more apparent within the Alien/UFO forum...sort of like wasps hovering around a hive. I find that a bit obvious and evidence to me that these particular disruptors of discussion are only there for one thing....and one thing only.

And it isnt to be constructive either.

Cheers!!!!!

Skeptic: A person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.

Skeptics seem to have a shallow perception of what is
truth or fact.

Others find a deeper meaning, and feel what we are told
are inaccurate facts or truths.

I originally thought this site was for those who think out of
the box. It seems that there are minds that try to keep things
neat and clean in this box.

I think that that is boring, stagnant and leaves little room for
our minds to open up. Questioning and speculating our world
and experiences seems perfectly natural. Our minds are hungry
for more, demand the truth and like to solve mysteries.

Skeptics seem to have all the answers and like to act more
superior or jaded. I think they lack something in their brain that
doesn't allow them to believe that something can be outside the
neat little box in their head.

Of course with every faction of society there needs
to be an opposite. So this seems to work out just
fine.

reply to post by cluckerspud

Skeptic: A person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.

But that does not mean that skeptics are out to destroy truth.
A skeptic wants TRUTH. Just because one requires more proof is not a bad thing.

It sounds like the issue here is with TROLLS not skeptics. And trolling isnt allowed here, so just alert Mods when someone is trolling.

Sometimes it seems like believers dont want TRUTH. They just want their beliefs confirmed. That seems just as bad as as what I see being complained about here.

And "amazing" is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen people think proven hoaxes are amazing. Or people who are looking at a blurry bird say "amazing".

Skeptics are an absolute must IMO...because they help weed out the crap, the hoaxes, the lies, the frauds and keep everything ballanced. Cant have truth until both sides of a story are looked at. And isnt that what we all should want: TRUTH ?

I am very much a skeptic. But I am here at ATS in search of TRUTH and I prefer to see all sides to an issue so I can form my own opinion and hopefully find what that truth is. I dont think all believers are nearly as "open" as skeptics are

[edit on 12/5/2008 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by Nohup


Trust me I dont miss your point. But I dont think that an honest debate or discussion on any subject would contain repetitive and abusive posts by skeptics who were really trying to contribute another point of view.

It hardly is giving another point of view to be posting every reply with "bull" or "utter crap" would it?

To me that kind of point of view is extremely narrow and doesnt contain any useful information to the subject being discussed. I would expect alot more from any skeptic trying to deliver a valid point of information other than the repeating phrases that actually do not give any point of view. Those replies seem to only serve one purpose, to aggrivate the participants into quitting the discussion.

Now is that the goal of those particular skeptics with the repetitive non-informational responses? To stop the discussion!?

That seems to be the pattern to me. Because once the discussion ends, the thread gets buried into the abyss and those particular skeptics move on to disrupt the next discussion with the same repetitive non-information contained replies all over again.

Its like a merry go round ride that never seems to end.

There was alot of that kind of disruption that occured over at another anomaly/theory type forum some years ago. Not sure if they are still around, but the membership dropped from over several thousand members to next to nothing in no time and that forum earned a bad reputation for not being an even playing field for all to discuss subjects of varying tastes.

For the sake of prosperity of what ATS is all about, I hope that ride ends soon becasue even tho ATS is huge, things like what happend over at that other forum can very well happen here too. No forum is immune to public opinion. And when the public becomes dis-interested and unwelcomed by influences of such calibur, ATS too can fall very fast and very hard. I for one would not want to see ATS heading in that direction because of a handfull of disruptive, repetitive abuse of members and their desire to discuss subjects of interest to them with others with the same interests.



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 5-12-2008 by RFBurns]

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
reply to post by cluckerspud

 

Skeptic: A person who questions the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual.

But that does not mean that skeptics are out to destroy truth.
A skeptic wants TRUTH. Just because one requires more proof is not a bad thing.

It sounds like the issue here is with TROLLS not skeptics. And trolling isnt allowed here, so just alert Mods when someone is trolling.

Sometimes it seems like believers dont want TRUTH. They just want their beliefs confirmed. That seems just as bad as as what I see being complained about here.

And "amazing" is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen people think proven hoaxes are amazing. Or people who are looking at a blurry bird say "amazing".

Skeptics are an absolute must IMO...because they help weed out the crap, the hoaxes, the lies, the frauds and keep everything ballanced. Cant have truth until both sides of a story are looked at. And isnt that what we all should want: TRUTH ?

Absolutely! Agreed. Our ideas and acceptance of the truths
are different. I think lots of people find lies and deceit in our
history and have come to the conclusion that everything we
are fed by our government is BS. We deserve the truth, But
how do you know when you get genuine, 100%, grade A truth?!

If you don't want skeptics getting all up in your grill, start or join another internet forum dedicated to the creative discussion of far-out ideas, and make critical commentary against the rules.

It isn't against the rules here, so skeptics may as well start a counter thread: "why do believers complain so much?"

Take your own advice: ignore it, or go elsewhere.

Originally posted by mdiinican
If you don't want skeptics getting all up in your grill, start or join another internet forum dedicated to the creative discussion of far-out ideas, and make critical commentary against the rules.

It isn't against the rules here, so skeptics may as well start a counter thread: "why do believers complain so much?"

Take your own advice: ignore it, or go elsewhere.

It seems you couldn't take your own advice and ignore.

Do all skeptics use the word grill and the idea of getting all up in it?!

I'd be skeptical of your education.

reply to post by mdiinican


I dont think anyone in this discussion has said they do not want skeptics in their discussions. What I do see here is people saying they do not want the disruptive, non contributing, non informative garbage that some, not all, SOME skeptics obviously do on a repetitive basis.

I believe that everyone here that is....how you put it..."complaining", to which we are not complaining, we are discussing,...discussing this issue welcomes the skeptic that has something contributable to the subject at hand and actually helps move the thread FORWARD...not contribute abusive responses that only brings the thread to a dead stop!!!



Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by RFBurns
reply to post by mdiinican

 

I dont think anyone in this discussion has said they do not want skeptics in their discussions. What I do see here is people saying they do not want the disruptive, non contributing, non informative garbage that some, not all, SOME skeptics obviously do on a repetitive basis.

I believe that everyone here that is....how you put it..."complaining", to which we are not complaining, we are discussing,...discussing this issue welcomes the skeptic that has something contributable to the subject at hand and actually helps move the thread FORWARD...not contribute abusive responses that only brings the thread to a dead stop!!!



Cheers!!!!

I like the skeptics. Sometimes they may point out something you have missed. This allows us to look at things from another angle or rethink
our stance. Some of the times it does not persuade or change our out-
look, but it helps get a full understanding. Some are jerks just as I'm
sure we are jerks to others.

that some believers are jerks.