the reason I fear the God of the bible: science

reply to post by reject


Very interestimg... Ok let's think this.... 4000 years ago man noticed that all those things had bad consequences... and passed a kind of law that was then adopted by the Bible.. big deal...

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by Bombeni
So you celebrate Christmas? 364 days a year you blaspheme God and the Son He sent to save your soul, but on His birthday, you can set all that aside, long enough to what, open the gifts? How are these atheists ever going to gain respect and be taken seriously?

What a complete and utter washout.

I guess you didn't read the last thing I said:
"So how is the 'ignoring the arguments and moving on to pointless questions which you believe will demoralize atheists', going for you?"

The game your playing is very simple and obvious.
It's also a bit annoying, because I'm here to discuss more than silly Christian assumptions.

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's "His birthday"...
I celebrate Christmas because it's a tradition.
Do you celebrate Halloween because of ghosts?

You say I "set all of that aside" on Christmas.
I'm an atheist all year long lol... I argue the points when I feel like it, but I don't change my stance on Christmas.
Just what are you getting at?
If you have any logical argument to present then do so.
As of yet, you've proved only that your good at making assumptions, which quite frankly I could have guessed.

I'm talking about having the moral of your convictions. I have read accounts more and more recently of atheists who do not celebrate Christmas in any way shape or form; and admittedly I respect them for at least standig nbehind their convictions. Islamists have some type of celebratory period during the year, not sure when, but I don't celebrate it because I don't believe in the cause. Jews celebrate Hannukah for days and days, but I don't celebrate with them because I don't believe in their cause. It isn't that I don't like to party and have fun, I just don't want to be considered a phony. or just "there for the food and gifts." I want my beliefs to be clearcut. Atheists who celebrate Christmas don't belong in this clearcut category I refer to. I want to use a tried but true saying here which never had a better fit: Either crap or get off the toilet.

reply to post by Bombeni


Goodness. Mr Bombini, you would do well to remember that Christmas is a Christian holiday as much as it is a pagan holiday and a secular holiday.

Belief in a cause is all well and good, but for some there also is tradition.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Goodness. Mr Bombini, you would do well to remember that Christmas is a Christian holiday as much as it is a pagan holiday and a secular holiday.

Belief in a cause is all well and good, but for some there also is tradition.

That's Miss Bombeni to you (just funnin'). Christmas is about Christ, just as a reminder. I know all about the tradition of Christmas, as these atheists probably grew up with loads of presents and good memories from Christmas and they are not willing to give that up. But when you take debunking the very existence of Christ as a main life goal, seems to me you would have the courage of your conviction, if you expected to be taken seriously. One of them even claims to be a former Christian. Maybe it's just me, but if I had come to denounce even the existence of Christ, yet tell my family "hey, don't let that discourage you from bringing on the gifts" I can't find much respect for that.

What we are left with in the end is that a poor carpenter from a remote village in Jerusalem 2000 years ago still merits the largest birthday party in the entire world every single year, a party not to be missed by anyone who's anyone.

reply to post by Bombeni


Oh c'mon, gift giving has nothing to do with Christ anymore, whether or not the guy actually existed. Even as a christian I was knowledgeable of history enough to know that Christmas, Easter and St Valentines day are all hijacked holidays thanks to the Holy Roman Empire.

What you believe about Jesus doesn't change history.

As for atheists gift giving. Dunno miss, it sounds like you're just looking for excuses to criticise. "Oh. You don't believe in Jesus yet you give and receive gifts?!" As if that's a prerequisite somehow. So what? Should we just put up Xmas tress and receive one gift from Santa. each?

Frankly I've always been told that the true meaning of Xmas is the importance of family. Not all the ways in which we celebrate.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Oh c'mon, gift giving has nothing to do with Christ anymore, whether or not the guy actually existed. Even as a christian I was knowledgeable of history enough to know that Christmas, Easter and St Valentines day are all hijacked holidays thanks to the Holy Roman Empire.

What you believe about Jesus doesn't change history.

As for atheists gift giving. Dunno miss, it sounds like you're just looking for excuses to criticise. "Oh. You don't believe in Jesus yet you give and receive gifts?!" As if that's a prerequisite somehow. So what should we just put up Xmas tress and receive one gift from Santa each?

Frankly I've always been told that the true meaning of Xmas is the importance of family. Not all the ways in which we celebrate.

Jesus is the reason for the season, no way around that, in spite of the pagan rituals that have been attached to it in the past 50 years. The thing is and the point you are missing, is I can see the Average Joe who no longer believes in God, or never really did and didn't know it until he grew up, I can see that guy continuing with the Christmas holidays because Jesus' birthday is about the happiest time of the year. But take a person who blasphemes the man whose birthday is being celebrated, sticks his neck out nearly daily to debunk everything about Jesus, and yet goes on with the Christmas celebration in all its granduer leaves me with a deflated vacant summation of said person. If I wanted to see a major figure thrown from power I wouldn't show up at the rallies to celebrate said figure and perpetuate said figures influence. Not if I was really serious, that is.

reply to post by Bombeni

Jesus is the reason for the season, no way around that, in spite of the pagan rituals that have been attached to it in the past 50 years.

Jesus became the reason for the season more than 1500 years ago. In the last century your figure dropped from that pedestal when the significance of gift giving became greater than the significance of Jesus. It's all secular commercialism now, which I would hazard a guess is as to why xmas is becoming less and less celebrated.

As you say; "No way around that".

But take a person who blasphemes the man whose birthday is being celebrated, sticks his neck out nearly daily to debunk everything about Jesus, and yet goes on with the Christmas celebration in all its granduer leaves me with a deflated vacant summation of said person.

But it's not about Christ anymore is it? It was a winter solstice celebration, that became about a religious figure and has since become secular save the nativity. Although it's funny that there is more paganism in xmas these days than Christianity; Trees, holly, santa and all the other traditions. Amazing what survived the hijacking really.

Also remember that most, if not nearly all, atheists are not out to debunk Jesus, they are not Jesus haters. They, in fact, couldn't care less about your messiah, they are completely indifferent.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Jesus is the reason for the season, no way around that, in spite of the pagan rituals that have been attached to it in the past 50 years.

Jesus became the reason for the season more than 1500 years ago. In the last century your figure dropped from that pedestal when the significance of gift giving became greater than the significance of Jesus. It's all secular commercialism now, which I would hazard a guess is as to why xmas is becoming less and less celebrated.

As you say; "No way around that".

But take a person who blasphemes the man whose birthday is being celebrated, sticks his neck out nearly daily to debunk everything about Jesus, and yet goes on with the Christmas celebration in all its granduer leaves me with a deflated vacant summation of said person.

But it's not about Christ anymore is it? It was a winter solstice celebration, that became about a religious figure and has since become secular save the nativity. Although it's funny that there is more paganism in xmas these days than Christianity; Trees, holly, santa and all the other traditions. Amazing what survived the hijacking really.

Also remember that most, if not nearly all, atheists are not out to debunk Jesus, they are not Jesus haters. They, in fact, couldn't care less about your messiah, they are completely indifferent.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Good Wolf]

I have to disagree. For myself and the Christians I know, which are many, Christmas is about Christ. In fact my family does not exchange gifts anymore, we have a big dinner, and people bring gifts for the young children. But we are not talking of children. Grown men who have an agenda, a belief as strong as truthparadox that Jesus if He even existed, which he thinks not, was just a con artist who conspired with a bunch of guys who were willing to leave their families and homes for fame and riches (his words not mine) lol.

And as far as the trees, holly, etc. it only serves to allow us Christians to stretch out the holiday, the celebration of the birth of our Savior. The Jews I think celebrate Hannukah for 10 or 12 days, maybe longer. I doubt God looks down on us for putting a tree and lights up in our homes. On top of those trees is a star which symbolized the star of Bethlehem. That's getting worn out, we aren't going to hell for our Christmas trees.

I dont' know about most atheists not being Jesus haters, but the ones on this site, or at least this thread certainly appear to be. They hate the Christ part but are fine with the mas part. Hypocritical. People don't take a stand though anymore for their beliefs. They take the lazy, easy, self-serving stand. It's as simple as that.

reply to post by Bombeni


Ahh the hypocrisy is sweet .
You think I shouldn't celebrate Christmas because Christ is a small fraction of the tradition behind Christmas?
What if I were to say that you shouldn't celebrate Christmas because paganism is a large fraction of the tradition behind Christmas?

Want to know what Christ has to do with Christmas?
*The name "Christmas", which I can call "Xmas" if I want .
*Some Christmas songs which talk about Christ rather than Santa.

hmmm... Is that it? Maybe I'm missing something...
I would say the 25th of December being Christ's birthday, but they stole that from other God's... hmmm.. nope I think that's about it.

Just drop it.
I celebrate Christmas because I want to. If someday there becomes a good atheist alternative, then I'll most likely celebrate that .

Originally posted by Bombeni
I have to disagree. For myself and the Christians I know, which are many, Christmas is about Christ.

Yes. To Christians, it's about Christ.

To Atheists, it's about family and friends (and eggnog).
It's something different entirely.

You say that atheists shouldn't celebrate Christ's birthday, and you're right!
But that's not what I'm celebrating during Christmas.

Not even close.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Grown men who have an agenda, a belief as strong as truthparadox that Jesus if He even existed, which he thinks not, was just a con artist who conspired with a bunch of guys who were willing to leave their families and homes for fame and riches (his words not mine) lol.

No, those are YOUR words, not mine.
Don't you remember? That was your strawman argument against what I was actually saying - which is that it was most likely a fable.
No con artist needed.
I believe I stated that at least 5 times.

Well let's just close this little Christmas debate by saying Christmas is SUPPOSED to be about Christ. There are some party crashers that claim to be atheists who can't stay away from the indescribable experience of Christmas which is much more than the gifts and the parties, it contains something that you can't quite put your finger on when trying to describe, and if you were excluded from this yearly event that has a that special something that no other time of year has, you would feel like a total loser, an outcast, a dying calf in a hailstorm. It's ok, Christ welcomes all. I know I kicked up a little snow because I felt it was hypocritical, but that's the human weakness in me; Christ reigns supreme and each and every year, though you may claim it is just the gifts and the parties you can't stay away from, it is Christ making his continual bid for you, it is that unfathomable love and what He did for us, that we really celebrate, in words or in silence.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Well let's just close this little Christmas debate by saying Christmas is SUPPOSED to be about Christ.

So says the Christian.
But as I stated above, to the atheist, Christmas is not about Christ at all.

Originally posted by Bombeni
There are some party crashers that claim to be atheists who can't stay away from the indescribable experience of Christmas which is much more than the gifts and the parties

It's not indescribable at all .
It's a good feeling to show your appreciation to family and friends and let them know that you're thinking about them.
To you it may be 'indescribable' because you believe there is a greater meaning behind it - I don't .

Originally posted by Bombeni
Christ reigns supreme and each and every year, though you may claim it is just the gifts and the parties you can't stay away from, it is Christ making his continual bid for you, it is that unfathomable love and what He did for us, that we really celebrate, in words or in silence.

According to the Christian, I would think that such a thing would be daily and not just once a year .
However, even if Jesus existed, it's still a complete guess that he was born on the 25th ( www.religioustolerance.org... ) - which was taken from other god's and customs.

Maybe the reason you feel such joy on the 25th is due to Mithra (the persian savior, born on Dec.25) 'making his continual bid for you'.

lol...

reply to post by TruthParadox


Maybe Mithras or maybe all of the other Gods also born on that day with as the sun is born again each year (as the ancient astronomers believed).

Maybe the Christians should give the pagans their old holiday back. I believe the bible speaks against stealing, somewhere in the ten commandments.

[edit on 2/1/2009 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf


I could imagine all the gods in the 'afterlife' arguing about who's birthday us mortals are celebrating lol...

reply to post by TruthParadox


...Or who's birthday we're not celebrating.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I believe the bible speaks against stealing, somewhere in the ten commandments.

Weren't they also just (conveniently) borrowed from the Egyptian book of the dead- who in turn just 'borrrowed' them from the Mesopotamians?

BIBLE

Have no other gods before me

Make no idols

Do not misuse the name of God

Keep the Sabbath holy

Honor your mother and father

Do not kill

Do not commit adultery

Do not steal

Do not lie

Do not covet another’s property



BOOK OF THE DEAD

I do not tamper with divine balance

I stop not a god when he comes forth

I do not offend the god who is at the helm

(Egyptians had no Sabbath)

I do not harm my kinsmen

I do not kill

I am not an adulterer

I do not rob

I do not tell lies instead of truth

I do no wrong or mischief to others


The Mesopotamian Hammurabi's code is also very similar:

en.wikipedia.org...


On the other hand ,I think George makes some good points:
uk.youtube.com...

reply to post by Bombeni

There are some party crashers that claim to be atheists

There are a lot of atheist who don't celebrate xmas

who can't stay away from the indescribable experience of Christmas

It's not that indescribable. Frankly it gets more and more boring each and every year. There really is only magic in xmas for children, and it's the gift they're excited about

which is much more than the gifts and the parties, it contains something that you can't quite put your finger on

still don't know what you're talking about

when trying to describe, and if you were excluded from this yearly event that has a that special something that no other time of year has, you would feel like a total loser, an outcast, a dying calf in a hailstorm.

I wasn't at xmas this year and I didn't feel left out at all. Frankly, not having to see the family was great, I got to sit at home eating chocolate and watching TV. Fantastic.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Well let's just close this little Christmas debate by saying Christmas is SUPPOSED to be about Christ. There are some party crashers that claim to be atheists who can't stay away from the indescribable experience of Christmas which is much more than the gifts and the parties, it contains something that you can't quite put your finger on when trying to describe, and if you were excluded from this yearly event that has a that special something that no other time of year has, you would feel like a total loser, an outcast, a dying calf in a hailstorm. It's ok, Christ welcomes all. I know I kicked up a little snow because I felt it was hypocritical, but that's the human weakness in me; Christ reigns supreme and each and every year, though you may claim it is just the gifts and the parties you can't stay away from, it is Christ making his continual bid for you, it is that unfathomable love and what He did for us, that we really celebrate, in words or in silence.

WELCOME BACK ....I see your all refreshed .....glad your back .
Oh and a star for the post above ...I second that emotion Miss Bombeni lol

Originally posted by Bombeni
Well let's just close this little Christmas debate by saying Christmas is SUPPOSED to be about Christ. There are some party crashers that claim to be atheists who can't stay away from the indescribable experience of Christmas which is much more than the gifts and the parties,

i think youl find were just joining the rest of the world in celebreating the birth of the comming year

shall we look at gatecrashing?

The December 25th birthday of the sun god is a common motif globally, dating back at least 12,000 years as reflected in winter solstices artfully recorded in caves. "Nearly all nations," says Doane, commemorated the birth of the god Sol to the "Queen of Heaven" and "Celestial Virgin." The winter solstice was celebrated in countless places, including China and Persia, the latter regarding the solar Lord and Savior Mithra's birth. The winter solstice festival in Egypt included the babe in a manger brought out of the sanctuary

Indians for millennia have celebrated the winter solstice, as a cardinal point, the new year and, presumably, the birth of the sun god. In the Indian
solstice celebration--a "great religious festival"--there is "rejoicing everywhere." As in the West, the Indians "decorate their houses with garlands, and make presents to friends and relatives," a "custom of very great antiquity." One way the Brahman priests of Orissa have celebrated the solstice
is by carrying images of "the youthful Krishna to the houses of their disciples and their patrons, to whom they present some of the red powder and tar of roses, and receive presents of money and cloth in return." Thus, in India the winter solstice has been as much a major holiday as it was anywhere, which is to be expected in a land permeated with sun worship for millennia

Regarding the Persian sun god Mithra and his sacrifice, in the 19th century respected Christian author Rev. J.P. Lundy remarked:

"For let it be borne in mind that it was precisely at the season of this sacrifice, near the beginning of the new year, that the birth of Mithra was celebrated over all Persia and the world, in temple-caves, on the night of the 24th of December, the night of light. Even the British Druids celebrated it, and called the next day, the 25th of December, Nollagh or Noel, the day of regeneration, celebrating it with great fires on tops of their mountains

jesusbirthday.org...

gate crashing? the christians broke the gate down and stole 1/2 the brickwok from the wall, weve just wondered in for a look around

gatecrashers we celebrate a holiday of family while you celebrate a pagan ritual and pretend its christianity, bunch of dirty pagans

it contains something that you can't quite put your finger on when trying to describe, and if you were excluded from this yearly event that has a that special something that no other time of year has, you would feel like a total loser, an outcast, a dying calf in a hailstorm.

well unless you like paganism you should exclude your self, and may i say how very nice of you what next jewsa ...i mean athiests cant be citizens?

It's ok, Christ welcomes all.

were still trying to work out who invited him to the party though or did he just gate crash as well as suspected

I know I kicked up a little snow because I felt it was hypocritical,

you hypocritical? never ..... well ok season of good will but lyings still wrong so sorry yes your often hypocritical

you call gate crasher on atheists when christianity gate crashed it and tried to steal it and claim it for its own which is far worse

so when is jesus's birthday? .......

using details of the bible scholars have worked out jesus was born april/may of either 5BC or 6BC

i think you better save the carols and front yard nativity for a couple of months time


[edit on 4/1/09 by noobfun]

[edit on 4/1/09 by noobfun]

reply to post by Bombeni


no but u show u'r ignorance and hypocracy by not practicing what u preach