Masonic logde connected to fals flag terrorists?

reply to post by jaamaan


Umm no, your source doesn't say that at all. It makes no claims about the lodge doing anything wrong.

This is yet another case where, it doesn't matter what happened, because the point is that the so called nefarious purpose failed to spread beyond the local lodge. It demonstrates the pointless nature of trying to use freemasonry for a evil purpose - you'd be much better off starting your own private club. P2 is the perfect example of why the fraternity is not well suited to those who would use it for "evil" purposes.

Not to mention you arent exactly quoting from a reliable source...

[edit on 24-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Well i think filling the ranks of a lodge with ex nazi people is not very much to praise about.
That a lodge trough the years can have so many members with a war criminal record, does not say much good about this place.
In that light i seems to show that these lodges can be used for bad intentions, like what happened in this scenario.

So i dont realy understand why you think this lodge was such a prime example of how lodges cant be corrupted.

reply to post by jaamaan


I think its very clear you are interested in trying to shove a point through without any consideration that you happen to be either 100% incorrect or are quoting from sources which there is no reason to believe are correct because they are not reliable.

You have failed to demonstrate anything at all. But you have shown, contrary to your intentions, a perfect example of where an attempt was made to use a lodge for a nefarious purpose which the institution of freemasonry positively responded to and dealt with the problem as soon as it became aware.

Thanks for the great example!

[edit on 25-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
reply to post by jaamaan

 

I think its very clear you are interested in trying to shove a point through without any consideration that you happen to be either 100% incorrect or are quoting from sources which there is no reason to believe are correct because they are not reliable.

You have failed to demonstrate anything at all. But you have shown, contrary to your intentions, a perfect example of where an attempt was made to use a loge for a nefarious purpose which the institution of freemasonry positively responded to and dealt with the problem as soon as it became aware.

Thanks for the great example!

[edit on 25-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

I am not sure how you think you know my intentions so well but anyway.

But could you tell me where i am 100% incorrect, maybe i can learn something here
And could you please point out what is wrong with the source stories?

I am not sure how long this particular lodge was used for "nefarious purpose" yet but from what i have seen so far it seems that they had quite some strange members, like i mentioned earlier.
So i am not sure how much on target your statement is, that they dealth with it as soon as they found out.

But could we try and keep it a bit constructive here, i know i am not the best writer and i am not a jounalist eighter.
I just come across stories and articles around the internet and i like to discuss them with people to see if they carry any valid points for me.
I am in it for the learning, and like you mentioned before i even might prove your point in the end.

So trying to try and call me a mason basher or something is not going to help any of us.

This whole Gladio thing was not a small story, it seems there was a masonic lodge involved.
There are many conspiracy theories involving masons trying to bring on some kind of new world order with their secret ways.
I like to see for myself trough reading and discussion if this could be tru in some kind of way, or not.
Any thing is possible in my book, so this could be to.
But i dont just want to believe these thing because i read them somewhere.
So that is why i am here and that is my agenda for today if you would like to know.

"If' there would be some secret shadow government running armies of agents trough secret societies and fraterneties than this whole gladio seems to be quite an interesting way to to it, and it was done in some ways.

Here is some information about some people who ran the P2 lodge.

Licio Gelli, Grand Master P2

Called Naja Hannah (King Cobra) by P2 members. Born 1919 in Pistoia, a provincial capital of Tuscany. At Seventeen he left high school to fight with the Fascist Italian Blackshirt division in Spain, and during World War II Gelli zealously supported the Italian dictator, Benito Mussolini. Gelli served as an Officer in the notorious German SS Herman Goering Division which saw extensive duty in the battles of Sicily and Mainland Italy. When the dictator fell, Gelli fled to Argentina, where he allied himself with Juan Peron, became Peron's economic advisor to Italy, and was granted dual citizenship.

Operated the "Rat Line" which orchestrated the escape of hundreds of indicted or suspected Nazi War Criminals, "Scientists", and Nazi Intelligence Officers including likely Klaus Barbie the Butcher of Lyon, Via Switzerland to South America under the direction of O.S.S./C.I.A., and M.I.5 using the code name "Operation Paperclip".

With the help of the Grande Oriente of Italy the Anti-Fascist Commission cleared Gelli of War Crime charges related to his involvement with the executions of Partisans by the SS, contradicting claims by Masons of Anti-Masonry by Italian Fascists, and Anti-Fascism by Italian Masons. When Juan Peron died, Eva Peron called him back to organize the transition.

In early 1960's he joined the Masonic Order of Freemasonry known in Italy as the Grande Oriente (recognized by mainstream Freemasonry UGLE & U.S. Grand Lodges). As Grand Master of P2 Gelli declared himself "a lifelong anti-communist".
www.freemasonrywatch.org...

Here some background of an other prominent member of this same lodge.

Michele Sindona

Born in 1920 in Patti, Sicily. Sindona became the most successful tax lawyer and the most powerful banker in Italy. Years later, as one of the wealthiest men in the world, Sindona was identified by the Italian and U.S. governments as the Mafia's banker (appointed as such at a International Mafia conclave in Palermo Sicily in 1957). He was accused of washing heroin profits through his banks and of smuggling currency out of Italy through the Bank of the Vatican and help organize with P2 Grand Master Gelli and the CIA/MI5 the coup in Greece in '69, an attempted coup in Italy plus others in Spain and Latin America).
www.freemasonrywatch.org...

Considering the background of these people i find it very hard to see this particular lodge as a prime example of the self clensing properties of the free mason system as mentioned earlier.








[edit on 26-11-2008 by jaamaan]

Here a bit more background on gladio

The following is an excerpt from a much longer post I made on GNN1, which Darios reproduced in full over at Upwingers, about the so-called “Strategy of Tension”.

It deals with Operation Gladio. Unlike the majority of suspected false flag operations, it is extremely well documented and can therefore serve as a crash-course in the study of state-sponsored terrorism.

As I will outline in the follow-up, there are extraordinary similarities between Gladio and the “War on Terra”, not the least of which is that many neocons – top policy makers who are now at the helm of battleship Amerika (Kissinger, for instance) – were actually involved in the conspiracy.

www.gnn.tv...

“Some Italian political analysts believe that P2 and “Ordine Nuova” (New Order) may have cooperated with the CIA [to bomb the railway station].… There are clearly overlapping circles of membership between P2, the CIA, and the Knights of Malta, a “sovereign military order descended from the Knights of St. John-Hospitallers,” and whose membership in the U.S. has included Bill Casey, Alexander Haig, and Prescott Bush [and reportedly George Bush].”
www.constitution.org...

www.gnn.tv...

Originally posted by jaamaan


Considering the background of these people i find it very hard to see this particular lodge as a prime example of the self clensing properties of the free mason system as mentioned earlier.

But the P2 Lodge is not a part of the system of Freemasonry. The ceremonies they practice are much different than ours, and their philosophies and ideologies are also very different. A member of the P2 Lodge is not allowed to visit a Masonic Lodge, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by jaamaan


Considering the background of these people i find it very hard to see this particular lodge as a prime example of the self clensing properties of the free mason system as mentioned earlier.

But the P2 Lodge is not a part of the system of Freemasonry. The ceremonies they practice are much different than ours, and their philosophies and ideologies are also very different. A member of the P2 Lodge is not allowed to visit a Masonic Lodge, and vice versa.

Mason usually say that there are different rites from lodge to lodge. There is the York Rite, the Scottish Rite and other convoluted rituals all of which are under the umbrella of Freemasonry. The only exception is when the brethren are caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Then they are not true Freemasons because the rituals are different, ie the Shriners, P2.

It seems to this cowan that a Freemason is a Freemason until he is caught shafting something or someone.

Originally posted by masonwatcher
Mason usually say that there are different rites from lodge to lodge. There is the York Rite, the Scottish Rite and other convoluted rituals all of which are under the umbrella of Freemasonry. The only exception is when the brethren are caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Then they are not true Freemasons because the rituals are different, ie the Shriners, P2.

It seems to this cowan that a Freemason is a Freemason until he is caught shafting something or someone.

Quite wrong, as usual. It is very clear what regular freemasonry is and is not.

There are three types of masonic organizations:
1) Regular Freemasonry - this is the blue lodge, and consists of all those lodges that are recognized by other regular grand lodges - the litmus test is often to see whether the grand lodge is in mutual recognition with the UGLE.

2) Masonic organizations - These are side orders which build upon the three degrees of freemasonry. In the US, this includes the York and Scottish Rite, and some smaller orders. This is not freemasonry per say but rather organizations which teach from the tenets of the 3 degrees of freemasonry.

3) Clubs with masons - These are clubs that require masons to be members but don't do any sort of building upon the degrees or otherwise really explore masonic philosophy. They exist for the entertainment and fun of the members. This includes the Shrine, Grotto, and other organizations.

4) Organizations calling themselves freemasons - Anyone can call themselves masonic. No one is going to stop them. And so lots of people do. This group is not masonic at all but includes all those groups that call themselves masons which do not fit in 1-3 above.

P2 is under group 4. It is not freemasonry.

Thank you for the responses.
I see that there are many different lodges in many different countries, that must create some variations in the way the lodges are run.

Just a question.

P2 was first an official lodge right?
And later expelled and falls since than in the mentioned catagory 4, correct ?

Establishment

1944 the P2 by the mattress manufacturer Licio Gelli under acknowledgment of the Grossloge Grande Oriente d'Italia as Freimaurerloge again-justified. Gelli became 1967 "„masters of the chair "“. The Italian Grossloge was and is not recognized not of the United Grand Lodge OF England.

When it turned out that the establishment of lying in the sense of a conspiracy with the intention happened of intervening actively in the Italian policy the Italian large lying day of the Grande Oriente decided d'Italia 1974 the deprivation of those "„group of own qualification "“, which became effective finally 1976.
www.economy-point.org...

Its a bit confusing, but it looks that this Licio Gelli joined P2 in 1944 and became master in 1967.

Members or persons with contacts to the P2

* As the most prominent member under the membership number 1816 the Medienmogul and Italian ex Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi were led. Silvio Berlusconi was condemned because of perjury, after the membership was proven to him.
www.economy-point.org...

It would be interesting to know if he is member of a lodge now and what one if so.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by jaamaan]

Here for reference.

1981 DETAILED PARTIAL LIST OF 959 P2 LODGE MEMBERS

So prominent was Gelli's influence, that he was even a guest
of honor at the 1981 inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

Gelli used blackmail in order to gain prominent members of his P-2
lodge, its membership is estimated at 2400 members, including 300 of the
most powerful men in the Western World.. He was a close friend of Pope
Paul VI, Juan Peron of Argentina, Libyan Dictator Muammar el-Qaddafi,
and many high officials in the Italian and American governments - he is
also reported to have had some financial dealings with the George Bush
for President campaign.
www.arcticbeacon.com...

This Gelli had many many connections.
If you want to play both sides of the theatre this would be a good one to have in your ranks.

reply to post by jaamaan


I am not a expert on P2, but I believe the "grand lodge" P2 established itself under was never organized by UGLE, the UGLE only recognizes the "Regular Grand Lodge of Italy."

That would indeed make them part of Group 4, but even if they were ever recognized as being regular they are now part of group 4 regardless.


[edit on 27-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

The Grand Orient of Italy received it's charter in 1972, it awarded the Propaganda Due Lodge it's charter in 1877. Four years after the Grand Orient of Italy was awarded it's Charter, the Grand Orient revoked P2's charter.
The P2 lodge was definetly irregular for most of it's history.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Is the "Grand Orient of Italy" the same as the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy which is listed on the UGLE website as being recognized?

reply to post by LowLevelMason


No, the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy was founded in 1993, the Grand Orient was founded in 1805.

www.granloggiaregolareitalia.org...
That's the Regular Grand Lodge's Site.

www.grandeoriente.it...
There's the Grand Orient's site. Unfortunately, I can't read Italian, but Babel Fish leaves only a few words untranslated. The bit about P2 is in the last half of the block of text under Instituzione in the 1945 to 2005 date range. Babel fish doesn't translate the page, just the block of text.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Interesting, because the UGLE only lists the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy as being recognized:
www.ugle.org.uk...

Anyone know if the UGLE recognized the grand orient previously?

Thanks for the digging so far and clearing up some things about the P2 lodge.

The P2 lodge does not seem to have been a regular recognised lodge so far, at least not for a very long time.

But what i realy would like to know if some of these promenent people like berlusconi, Licio Gelli and others mentioned earlier are members of a masonic lodge now, and if so what ones.

Originally posted by jaamaan
But what i realy would like to know if some of these promenent people like berlusconi, Licio Gelli and others mentioned earlier are members of a masonic lodge now, and if so what ones.

Freemasonry rarely lets anyone in a lodge if something as small as a 40 year old drug conviction for using shows up on a background check. I cannot figure out how it would be possible for those guys to apply to any regular lodge in the world and get in given their known history.