Masonic logde connected to fals flag terrorists?, page 1

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Topic started on 24-11-2008 @ 07:27 AM by jaamaan

Recently i came across some articles concerning Operation Gladio. (check link for extra info)
It looks like this "was" an opperation set up as a secret resistance group for Nato to sabotage a possible communist invasion or infiltration of european countries.
The opperation was connected with a Masonic lodge in Italy called "Propaganda Due" (aka P2).
Gladio and the Masonic lodge where involved in many investigations in european countries connected to terrorist bombings.
The whole opperation involved many high placed members of several secret services from various countries.
Some high placed members in the opperation and of the Masonic lodge where sentenced for their involvement of false flag terrorist bombings.

"The Prime Minister, Giulio Andreotti, sharply denied that there was any
link between the group, codenamed Gladio...and a wave of unsolved bombings
between 1969 and 1984 in which 143 people were killed...The Communist Party
alleged that members of Gladio may have taken part in acts of terrorism
nero, or neo-fascist bombings such as that in the waiting room at Bologna
Station in August 1980, which killed 85 people in Italy's communist
heartland. Four neo-fascists were jailed for life for the crime, and the
grand master of the illegal P2 Masonic Lodge, Licio Gelli, was sentenced
to 7 years for his involvement in the case. But last July the appeals
court overturned the ruling for reasons never clearly explained, causing
a national outcry." (Fiona Leney & Wolfgang Achtner, Independent, 10/11/90)
web.archive.org...://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm

Links between Gladio, Italian secret services bosses and the notorious P2 masonic lodge are manifold (...) In the year that Andreotti denied Gladio’s existence, the P2 treasurer, General Siro Rosetti, gave a generous account of 'a secret security structure made up of civilians, parallel to the armed forces'

en.wikipedia.org...

"In the programme, Mr Brenneke alleged that, throughout the 1970's the CIA
had made large sums of money available to the subversive Masonic Lodge, P2,
widely believed to have been involved in the August, 1980 Bologna train
station bombing in which 85 people were killed. Furthermore Mr Brenneke
claimed that, not only does the CIA continue to secretly finance a revived
P2, but that it was involved in the 1986 killing of the Swedish Prime
Minister, Mr Olaf Palme. According to Mr Brenneke, P2, under the guidance
of its Grand master, Mr Licio Gelli, used some of the finance made
available by the CIA to set up agencies in West Germany, Austria and
Switzerland. These agencies in turn were used by P2 to set up the
assassination of Mr Palme, on the orders of the CIA. Finally, and perhaps
most sensationally, Mr Brenneke alleged that President Bush, then director
of the CIA, not only knew about these CIA activities in Italy (during the
late 1970s and early 1980s) but was in fact one of the masterminds behind
them.
web.archive.org...://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/gladio.htm

Is this a prime example story of how the power structures of the shadow government powers work ?
Is this an example how an elite layer of people controls the upper layers of Masonic logdes without the know of its lower members?
It quite looks like it with so many high placed people involved in it.
This was quite a large scale opperation crossing many borders and invloving many different government bodies from various "western" countries.

To me this this whole Gladio Opperation could be a small peep into the kitchen of the so called "shadow government" and their possible connection to Masonic Lodges.

But one conspiracy, Masonic in origin, was catapulted into the sunshine one day in March of 1981 when the Italian police searched the home of Worshipful Master Licio Gelli and found a list containing the names of some of Italy's most prominent officials, including that of Silvio Berlusconi, a man who would become Premier of Italy and a personal friend of George W. Bush.

Founded in 1877, P2 or Propaganda Due was an irregular lodge formed as part of the Grand Orient of Italy. It had few members until Licio Gelli came to power and drastically expanded its membership within one year to over a thousand. Gelli was a former fascist, having been a "black shirt" in Mussolini's government, and served as a liaison between Mussolini's government and the Third Reich. Essentially setting the P2 Lodge up as a shadow government for Italy along fascist lines in the 60's and 70's, Gelli's Lodge included four Cabinet Ministers, all three heads of Italy's intelligence organizations, forty eight members of parliament, hundreds of military officers, and the cream of the crop of Italy's industrialists, bankers and diplomats. In addition, he developed high level contacts outside of Italy as well, most notably meeting with Alexander Haig, and contacts with Henry Kissinger and the CIA.

www.theparanormalreport.com...

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 07:30 AM by Raustin

Oh jeez. I think the P2 lodge has been gone over pretty thoroughly on this site. As I recall the lodge was not officially recognized.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 07:43 AM by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Raustin
Oh jeez. I think the P2 lodge has been gone over pretty thoroughly on this site. As I recall the lodge was not officially recognized.

It was recognized a long time ago, but that recognition was withdrawn over 30 years ago.

The P2 Lodge is not a Masonic organization, and is well known for a being a criminal institution subservient to both the mafia and political extremist right wing.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Masonic Light]

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 07:50 AM by Raustin

reply to post by Masonic Light

Ahh thank you for the clarification. I need to read about it again, it's been awhile and I am really fuzzy on the details.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 08:20 AM by jaamaan

The P2 lodge was recognized up to the time that this Gladio scandal came out right ?

It would be quite logical that they are not any more after this type of information came out.

The whole gladio opperation seems to have been more than just a right wing group, quite some main stream and high placed politicians where involved here.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 09:10 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
The P2 lodge was recognized up to the time that this Gladio scandal came out right ?

No, it was suspended in 1975 and the Gladio scandal became public in 1981.
en.wikipedia.org...
So it had been operating clandestinely, independently, without the oversight of a Grand Lodge, for more than 5 years. Considering there were probably grounds for having their charter revoked, it's easy to believe they'd gone rogue prior to 1975, but the Grand Orient of Italy, like all institutional bodies, had to have all its charges in order before they could be processed appropriately.

[edit on 11/24/2008 by JoshNorton]

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 09:41 AM by jaamaan

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
The P2 lodge was recognized up to the time that this Gladio scandal came out right ?
No, it was suspended in 1975 and the Gladio scandal became public in 1981.
en.wikipedia.org...
So it had been operating clandestinely, independently, without the oversight of a Grand Lodge, for more than 5 years. Considering there were probably grounds for having their charter revoked, it's easy to believe they'd gone rogue prior to 1975, but the Grand Orient of Italy, like all institutional bodies, had to have all its charges in order before they could be processed appropriately.

But the whole gladio opperations go back far into the 60's right?
Quite some years before the "investigation".
Is it not as easy to believe that gladio had its connections to this lodge before it was considered officialy "rogue"?

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 09:58 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
But the whole gladio opperations go back far into the 60's right?
Quite some years before the "investigation".
Is it not as easy to believe that gladio had its connections to this lodge before it was considered officialy "rogue"?

Sure. But again, the operations of one lodge are not the operations of Masonry as a whole. There easily could have been individuals with other allegiances who joined P2 when it was a legitimate lodge. It's also possible that by such members signing the petitions of their nefarious friends, the ranks of mafia and other types within that one lodge could have grown without anyone from the Grand Lodge noticing. Elections for officer positions within the P2 may have been swayed by such members. It would have taken a while for such actions to play out, and, as such, would have taken a while before coming to the attention of their Grand Lodge. And once the Grand Lodge saw that something was fishy they did what was within their power to put a stop to it. They looked at what P2 was doing and said "That's not Masonry" and suspended P2's charter.

It's actually a good example of why there can't be an overarching Masonic conspiracy. Even if the same actions where carried out under all the lodges of the Grand Orient of Italy, and they managed to get Mafia members in the GL, the Grand Orient of Italy doesn't have any power over lodges not in its jurisdiction, nor do other Grand Lodges have any authority over it, other than to deny it recognition. So in a worst case scenario—all the lodges under the Grand Orient of Italy controlled by Mafia, and the GOI itself controlled by Mafia, once criminal activity came to light other Grand Lodges could say "We don't recognize the GOI as legitimate. That's not Masonry." and that is that.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 10:09 AM by jaamaan

Originally posted by JoshNorton
It's actually a good example of why there can't be an overarching Masonic conspiracy. Even if the same actions where carried out under all the lodges of the Grand Orient of Italy, and they managed to get Mafia members in the GL, the Grand Orient of Italy doesn't have any power over lodges not in its jurisdiction, nor do other Grand Lodges have any authority over it, other than to deny it recognition. So in a worst case scenario—all the lodges under the Grand Orient of Italy controlled by Mafia, and the GOI itself controlled by Mafia, once criminal activity came to light other Grand Lodges could say "We don't recognize the GOI as legitimate. That's not Masonry." and that is that.

Is it not as much an example of how lodges can and are beeing used as a secret base for "shadow governments" to carry out their agenda without the knowing of good willing Masons?

It seems to that the grand lodges only trew out the P2 lodge after the criminal activities came to public.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 11:07 AM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
Is it not as much an example of how lodges can and are beeing used as a secret base for "shadow governments" to carry out their agenda without the knowing of good willing Masons?

Can you explain exactly what the benefit of doing such would be? The only thing I can see that such a "shadow government" might gain from such a relationship would be a time and place to meet. A lodge has no inherent power. Its members are a cross section of the community in which it exists and, at most, can only reflect upon that community. Perhaps you can describe this "secret base" theory a bit more to help me understand?

It seems to that the grand lodges only trew out the P2 lodge after the criminal activities came to public.

If the police raid didn't happen until 1981, and the GOI suspended P2's charter in 1975, how can you say that?

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 11:29 AM by jaamaan

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
Is it not as much an example of how lodges can and are beeing used as a secret base for "shadow governments" to carry out their agenda without the knowing of good willing Masons?
Can you explain exactly what the benefit of doing such would be? The only thing I can see that such a "shadow government" might gain from such a relationship would be a time and place to meet. A lodge has no inherent power. Its members are a cross section of the community in which it exists and, at most, can only reflect upon that community. Perhaps you can describe this "secret base" theory a bit more to help me understand?

Well i think for one, the P2 lodge seemed to have had many members with importand political positions.
This "secret" society network of people could be nicely used for opperations like Gladio.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 11:31 AM by jaamaan

Originally posted by JoshNorton

It seems to that the grand lodges only trew out the P2 lodge after the criminal activities came to public.
If the police raid didn't happen until 1981, and the GOI suspended P2's charter in 1975, how can you say that?

I could easy be wrong on this one, i understood that gladio and its connections to the P2 lodge went as far back as the 60's.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 12:01 PM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
I could easy be wrong on this one, i understood that gladio and its connections to the P2 lodge went as far back as the 60's.

So you're saying that those connections have been public since the 60's? Andreotti denied Gladio's existence in 1974 and 1979. He wasn't forthcoming about the association between the two until 1981. So while there may have been intermingling going back to the 60's, I haven't seen any clear evidence that would show any reason why the GOI, nor the rest of the public, would know about it's business until much later.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 03:07 PM by jaamaan

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by jaamaan
I could easy be wrong on this one, i understood that gladio and its connections to the P2 lodge went as far back as the 60's.
So you're saying that those connections have been public since the 60's? Andreotti denied Gladio's existence in 1974 and 1979. He wasn't forthcoming about the association between the two until 1981. So while there may have been intermingling going back to the 60's, I haven't seen any clear evidence that would show any reason why the GOI, nor the rest of the public, would know about it's business until much later.

No i dont try to say that those connections have been public since the 60's.

As far as i understood there where connections between gladio and the P2 lodge going back to the 60's.
Therefore possibly indicating a connection between the two before the lodge was officialy trown out by the grand lodge.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 03:28 PM by JoshNorton

Exactly. You seem to be arguing in circles, but I think we agree on the following points:

P2 may or may not have had ties to Gladio going back to the 60s. Certainly by the early 70s, but I haven't seen any evidence tying the two much further back, myself. Such evidence could exist, but I'm not aware of it.
In 1975 the Grand Orient of Italy decided there was something going on in P2 and suspended their charter.
In 1981 the police raided Andreotti's house and got the list, and everything became public.

So your assertions that

The P2 lodge was recognized up to the time that this Gladio scandal came out right

and

It seems to that the grand lodges only trew out the P2 lodge after the criminal activities came to public.

are provably false.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 05:24 PM by jaamaan

reply to post by JoshNorton

Mmm, it looks like you have a good point there.

But does it not just circle around the statement that started this side track?

Is it not as easy to believe that gladio had its connections to this lodge before it was considered officialy "rogue"?

In reaction to yours:

So it had been operating clandestinely, independently, without the oversight of a Grand Lodge, for more than 5 years. Considering there were probably grounds for having their charter revoked, it's easy to believe they'd gone rogue prior to 1975, but the Grand Orient of Italy, like all institutional bodies, had to have all its charges in order before they could be processed appropriately.

So there is at least 5 years where the operations of gladio could as easely be know by this "Grand Orient of Italy" as not.

Still, the whole gladio scandal is a good example of how secret societies can be infiltrated, or are set up and run, by a group of people conspiring evil plans like terrorist attacks on they own people.

If the world would be run in secret by a shadow government that ruled trough a system of secret societies and lodges that want to set up a new world order.
Than these kind of scandals would be the tips of the iceberg to look for i think.

There was a connection with a masonic lodge and this gladio operation.
And from what it looks now to me is that gladio seemed to be active within P2 "under" the juristiction of this "Grand Orient of Italy" at least from the early 70's until 1975.

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 05:32 PM by LowLevelMason

Originally posted by jaamaan
Still, the whole gladio scandal is a good example of how secret societies can be infiltrated, or are set up and run, by a group of people conspiring evil plans like terrorist attacks on they own people.

Woah. Talk about spin! Its actually a excellent example of why infiltrating freemasonry for nefarious ends is quite pointless. You notice that this is a case where at no time was the institution of freemasonry involved, simply 1 lodge. None of the institutional qualities of freemasonry were ever implicated, and as soon as it found out what was going on the lodge was expelled.

P2 is, in reality, the ultimate example of why freemasonry as a institution cannot be used for nefarious purposes. Its a clear case of someone attempting to carry out all the things that anti-masons claim freemasonry is just so susceptible to, and yet its a case where the nefarious plot never spread beyond the local lodge and the institution removed the lodge from its organizational structure as soon as it became aware of anything going on that was wrong.

[edit on 24-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 05:32 PM by jaamaan

Here is some more background on operation Gladio

Google Video Link

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 05:39 PM by masonwatcher

Gladio was one of many 'secret armies' created by Nato during the Cold War. Another group known as "Deep State" was formed in Turkey. The major recurring threat to society and political stability in Turkey over the past 60 years, the "Deep State," was actually enabled by the country's Western allies, and first of all, America.

These 'stay behind' forces in the event of a Soviet invasion were charged with waging sabotage campaigns and resistance. However, they have became prone to corruption, interference with domestic politics and society, and were in some cases involved with brutality against Leftists and the citizenry in general.

Many of the recruits of these secret armies were initially from the partizans and the resistance of the Second World War but also included Freemasons, major players in the criminal underworld and the security services.

Anyone interested in this subject should read 'NATO's Secret Army: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe' by GANSER DANIELE.

This subject is current and the prospect of a violent emergence of these groups are very real. With increasing xenophobia and the infiltration of racist extremists since 9/11, secret army coordinators have self activated.

news.bbc.co.uk...

reply posted on 24-11-2008 @ 06:46 PM by jaamaan

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
P2 is, in reality, the ultimate example of why freemasonry as a institution cannot be used for nefarious purposes. Its a clear case of someone attempting to carry out all the things that anti-masons claim freemasonry is just so susceptible to, and yet its a case where the nefarious plot never reached spread beyond the local lodge and the institution removed the lodge from its organizational structure as soon as it became aware of anything going on that was wrong.

Mmm, i think there are some examples that this particular P2 lodge had in reality been used for "nefarious purposes" for quite some time.

Two ancient, mysterious, international fraternities kept the loosely-linked Gladio programs from flying apart. The Knights of Malta played a formative role after the war (see box), but the order of Freemasonry and its most notorious lodge in Italy, known as Propaganda Due (pronounced ``doo-ay'' ), or P-2, was far more influential. In the late 1960s, its ``Most Venerable Master'' was Licio Gelli, a Knight of Malta who fought for Franco with Mussolini's Black Shirts. At the end of World War II, Gelli faced execution by Italian partisans for his Nazi collaboration, but escaped by joining the U.S. Army Counter Intelligence Corps. 23 In the 1950s, he was recruited by SIFAR.
www.mega.nu:8080...