Proof for God's Existence

Originally posted by mpeake
Great question mOjOm!

Hope my response answers your question sir!

Well, yes and no actually.

Let me see if I understand you correctly. What I am getting from what you've said is that the Difficulty in trying to answer the Origin of Reality, for you, adds to your faith in that it Must have Been God who created everything. Is that right?

If so, why is it that you are able to accept God being Eternal and without a need for Creation, but you aren't able to accept that the same would apply for what we call Reality or that which was created by God?

Does that make more sense? In other words, you seem to need a Creation type Origin for Reality, which you apply to God, but I wonder why you wouldn't then wonder about the Origin of God at that point. If God has always been and you're ok with that, then why can't everything esle be accepted as having no need for an Origin either.

Ah yes, the Origin of God. I see what you asking. Do I beleive, as it was mentioned before by someone else, that for all eternity God has just existed, and that one day he decided to create our existence, and that before that he just did nothing but exist himself with no begining of his own. I guess you have to ask yourself, with all of it's flaws, do you beleive in the scripture? "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I truly beleive that God has always existed and if that requires beleiving that he has always been there for infinite time just twiddling his godly thumbs all the way up to our creation, then yes. I don't know why, but that's not my place to ask. Well, not here or now. I guess you can always play the who created the creator game all you want and never get to the "source", or you can accept that the "God the Creator" is the source and leave it at that. I have done just that.

[edit on 11-6-2004 by mpeake]

"He said God is self-caused, which means he created himself. Then, he went on to create everything else. However, if absolutely NOTHING exists, where does NOTHING get the resources to create a GOD and then out of that God a universe? Nothing is absolutely NOTHING! This means, NOTHING never existed, otherwise it forevermore would exist - SOMETHING can never come out of absolute NOTHING!"

lilblam: But can there really be NOTHING? Matter and energy can't be created nor destroyed, but they can be changed in form. If that is really true then NOTHINGNESS can�t exist, in other words SOMETHING has always existed.

Also you say:

"How could a being that exists outside of time CREATE something?"

Well this is impossible for us to answer since we are bound by the laws of time in our minds and bodies. You say that God had to wait inifinty to create something. Well obviously that�s wrong since we are here. You can never understand infinity from a time bound perspective. You will only end up comparing it to something you know wich is time. What if inifinity is something completely different than just infinite time?


"then the question is: BEFORE he created the VERY FIRST THING EVER, what was he doing?"

Well he did create something the very first moment he came to be: Himself. Wich in your terms will mean that he didn�t spend infinity doing nothing cos he created himself as the first act.




[edit on 11-6-2004 by Satariel]

Exactly, now we are both on the same page here.

You're right also, this topic will usually come to this very same point every time. Also known as 'Which came First, the Chicken or the Egg!' This can go some interesting directions as well. For example:

1.) Let's say God was just hangin' out then decided to Create all this for whatever reason. Would that mean that this creation is then something other than God? Cause that would seem to go against the idea of Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, teachings since you can't have All knowing, All Powerful and All Present, while also having created something Other than that which is All Present. Then there is the All Knowing aspect that has problems which I won't even get into at this point.

2.) Here is another good one. This comes up a lot in Buddhist teachings mostly. The concept of the Void which existed before all of creation. So this Void, which is to be understood as an Emptiness rather than a Nothingness, is therefore God. Formless, shapeless, and that which Contains the entire Universe, however is itself a Void without any applicable traits of any kind as well as being Infinite and without Limits. So God is then both Eternal, Limitless and so forth, but also the Void. The Void also though, is not Nothing but Empty, which Implies that it is to be filled. So then the Void contains Everything also.

In a manner of speaking Zero is Equal to Infinity since all other numbers are finite and defined, while Infiniteness can be applied to either the Concept of Infinite which is not of any practical use in mathematics for actual equations and things. Or Zero, which is used as a place holder since it's not a number really cause it has No Value, yet without it there is no contrast to the rest of the numerical values whatever they may be. You see where that is going? It can get pretty involved too. I actually like the idea of Zero=Infinity for some reason. The more it rolls around in your mind the closer your mind gets to understanding nothing, which Ironical is filled with all Wisdom. Whatever that means!

Originally posted by mpeake
Great question mOjOm!

Here goes...The reason your answer and answers like yours make it easy for me to put my faith in "God the Creator" is simple. Occams Razor. With all the possibilities and theories out there, I choose the one for me that is the most simple and reasonable.

Simple yes, but is it reasonable? Reasonable implies you arrived at this using reason, but may I ask what reason is inherent in this conclusion, other than wishful thinking?

There is a God and he created us and all that exists. With all the intangibles in existence, and the perfection required to pull it all together, that for me is the only explaination.

Perfection is a state without flaws. Flaws exist only when intent is identified. If I throw a ball and it hits a person, was there a flaw in my throw? Well, if my intention was to hit the person, then my throw was perfect - it precisely accomodated my intention. If my intention was to miss, then there was a flaw in my throw. However, who knows my intention but me? But I think what you're saying is, that the inherent complexity and wonder of the universe and all that exists that you're currently aware of, seems to require some sort of grand intelligence to "facilitate" this. Although "complexity" and "wonder" is subjective and relative, I agree that there is a consciousness that permeates all things, without which, nothing would exist, because that consciousness simply IS everything. This may or may not be true, but I don't think this means that CREATION is a viable concept in and of itself, since consciousness is timeless, and creation is an aspect of time.

It's not the flashiest answer or the most thought provoking, and usually is the one most laughed out of these forums, but it's mine. I love talking about this kind of stuff cause I always learn something new, but it seems the more i learn on this subject, the more my conclusion resonates with me as truth.

Learning is fun, but try to assume as little as possible and know as much as possible. Most people assume far more than they know.

But, if I were to come face to face with God so to speak (which would most likely mean I am in dead and in heaven) and he told me that what I had thought/beleived all along was wrong, well then I guess I'd just say, ok. Right now I have my convictions and beleifs and I won't change them till I have been given a reason to, and to have God tell me that I'm wrong, that'd be reason enough.

Ah, but how could you know if it is God? Cuz he says so? It's easy to fool those who assume. If you have certain assumptions about what God is, then someone with the power/technology to appear before you and accomodate your assumptions could easily fool you into thinking this is God - this has been done before countless times. Unless of course you realise that God as a persona or being doesn't exist, that he's ALL THERE IS. Any type of BEING with its own personality or voice is NOT all there is, is NOT God, because an infinite being that is simply EVERYTHING has no "personality". Personality is a human trait, it is variable and can change anytime. Most of us have MANY personalities depending on what company we find ourselves in. Example: Do you act the same way in front of your family as you do in front of your friends? What about in front of your teachers? And when you learn new things, you adjust your "personality" to match the environment/situation, so personality is just an empty shell, and there are many that each one of us carries.

So once again, if some being talks to you, how could you know it is GOD? You cannot say "I simply will feel it" because feelings/emotions/sensates can VERY EASILY be technologically/psychically remotely induced! Your body is filled with a plethora of "buttons" that can be pressed and made you feel any way the "button presser" desires (not physical pressure points necessarily, but brain chemicals etc). You can feel a euphoria as you talk to some magestic huge white light, and you feel like you're floating in the air, with the most orgasmic and wonderful feeling you ever felt. You feel so happy that you feel like laughing, crying, and screaming at the same time. All this can very easily be induced in any human using technology, including any "voice in your head" and any visual representation that you see before you. But of course, if you dive into "wishful thinking" and "beliefs" and "assumptions" then you can very easily be fooled and therefore controlled!

So you like to learn "new" things? As do I! I hope you think about this, really think about it. No need to have a predetermined conclusion in your mind, but just openly think about it, carefully. And have fun, cuz learning is FUN, isn't it?

-Mike

"1.) Let's say God was just hangin' out then decided to Create all this for whatever reason. Would that mean that this creation is then something other than God? Cause that would seem to go against the idea of Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, teachings since you can't have All knowing, All Powerful and All Present, while also having created something Other than that which is All Present. Then there is the All Knowing aspect that has problems which I won't even get into at this point."

Ok, I like this one!!! WOW, hard to wrap the brain around that one. God being All Present and still creating our existence. No answers obviously, ans it's sorta hard to even search for them in myself.

I'd love to know what your views on a Creator are with everything that you have brought up previously. Please enlighten?

Originally posted by mpeake
"1.) Let's say God was just hangin' out then decided to Create all this for whatever reason. Would that mean that this creation is then something other than God? Cause that would seem to go against the idea of Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, teachings since you can't have All knowing, All Powerful and All Present, while also having created something Other than that which is All Present. Then there is the All Knowing aspect that has problems which I won't even get into at this point."

Ok, I like this one!!! WOW, hard to wrap the brain around that one. God being All Present and still creating our existence. No answers obviously, ans it's sorta hard to even search for them in myself.

I'd love to know what your views on a Creator are with everything that you have brought up previously. Please enlighten?

Nice word isn't it, "enlighten"? Means roughly "To bring light to". But what is LIGHT? Why does our language have this really "odd" habit of thinking that LIGHT is being brought when I actually give you knowledge? Maybe light IS knowledge, and if you research the roots of that word and beyond you begin to see something? Perhaps LIGHT aka KNOWLEDGE aka GOD aka LOVE aka ALL THERE IS is all one and the same? But you want MY views? Well, as far as I understand it, creation is INFINITE and in order for the creator to exist, he must also be INFINITE, as otherwise he can't be omnipresent, all knowing, etc. And if he IS in all of creation, then they are inseparable, one and the same. Creator is the creation and vice versa. Non linear concept, but so what?

The author of the quote you mentioned fails to ask how LONG God would have to be hanging around, before he suddenly decided to create something. But I already talked about that so I won't get into all that now. However, given that most people are reluctant to think, as they have been programmed/conditioned to ACCEPT things, usually under temptation of "rewards" and threats of "punishment". Humans, with out SERVICE TO SELF nature, are extremely easy to hoodwink and fool, and therefore control. If you believe lies and accept illusions, you lose your free will, you lose your ability to entaract with creation, you accept entropy, and therefore, you are nothing but a SLAVE to those who know the truth but keep it from you, as they control your entire existance. So this maybe puts the phrase "the TRUTH shall set you free" in a whole different "light"?

And here is my favorite quote, that carries far deeper meaning than meets the eye and I'd suggest you spend some "time" thinking about every part of this quote and try to figure out what it is talking about, without making any assumptions if you can.

"Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future." "

-6th density unified thoughts forms.

Here's another one:

"The problem is not the term "love," the problem is the interpretation of the term. Those on third density have a tendency to confuse the issue horribly. After all, they confuse many things as love. When the actual definition of love as you know it is not correct either. It is not necessarily a feeling that one has that can also be interpreted as an emotion, but rather, as we have told you before, the essence of light which is knowledge is love, and this has been corrupted when it is said that love leads to illumination. Love is Light is Knowledge. Love makes no sense when common definitions are used as they are in your environment. To love you must know. And to know is to have light. And to have light is to love. And to have knowledge is to love."

-6th density unified thought forms.

And another one:

"The point is: stop filling your consciousness with monotheistic philosophies planted long ago to imprison your being. Can't you see it by now, after all you have learned, that there is no source, there is no leader, there is no basis, there is no overseer, etc... You literally possess, within your consciousness profile, all the power that exists within all of creation!?! You absolutely have all that exists, ever has, or ever will, contained within your mind. All you have to do is learn how to use it, and at that moment, you will literally, literally, be all that is, was, and ever will be!"

-6th density unified thought forms!

There are more, in addition to my own signature, but that's enough for now. The point is to get you to THINK for yourself, instead of submit and accept popular theories because they sound plausible. Plausible doesn't mean true, and the BEST LIES are the ones that SOUND PLAUSIBLE - so people have a tendency to assume them to be truth, since they are too lazy to put in the effort and figure it out themselves. The only way to learn and progress is to think for yourself, to learn to consciously think and question EVERYTHING, never accept anything without questioning it, ever.

Once again, a very thorough and concise reply and I appreciate it Liblam! Thinking for ones self is (or the lack therof) is the most important thing an individual can ever do in life. The life we have is so saturated with the material things that people are not require to think for themselves, thus they lose thier identity. For example, "I think, therefore I am" is so true, so one can conclude that if you don't think for yourself then you have no "self". But that's sorta off topic here huh?

I gotta be honest with you and mOjOm. You 2 are both way out of my league when it comes to this topic. I am not ashamed to admit. Rather envyous of your knowledge, but hopefully as I go thru life that envy will change as I have grown in the field of "truth". Fortunately for me, knowledge is not the same as intelligence. Intellegence is the ability to obtain knowledge, and that, I feel, is not lacking in myself. I thirst for knowledge. Until my progression gets to the next level I am forced to answer in my own way.

The points that Liblam bring up are meant to get me to challange the general "Christian" views of God and exixtence and I understand that I sound like I'm chock-full of em. My father was a pastor so it's sorta in my DNA, if you will, to have these views. BUT, I am not a child anymore and do not see eye to eye with my upbringing. So, where does that put me? One could say that I beleive what I do because I am looking for an easy way out, or need to hold onto something that "feels good". If I saw someone say the things I do, I may have the same accusations. Let me put it like this, I beleive that all humans are born with the need to "beleive". To me, even the athiest need to beleive that they are thier own gods so to speak. If you disagree, I understand, I'm not getting into a philisophical debate with anyone here for sure!
But, I still feel that the need to beleive is in all of us. Why else would it be in the fabric of every race and creed. So then, for me I beleive in a Creator of all things. However you want to put a spin on it feel free. For me it will always come back to the simple answer. God was, is, and will always be here.

Enjoy my ramblings!

Originally posted by Satariel
"He said God is self-caused, which means he created himself. Then, he went on to create everything else. However, if absolutely NOTHING exists, where does NOTHING get the resources to create a GOD and then out of that God a universe? Nothing is absolutely NOTHING! This means, NOTHING never existed, otherwise it forevermore would exist - SOMETHING can never come out of absolute NOTHING!"

lilblam: But can there really be NOTHING? Matter and energy can't be created nor destroyed, but they can be changed in form. If that is really true then NOTHINGNESS can�t exist, in other words SOMETHING has always existed.

Precisely my point!

Also you say:

"How could a being that exists outside of time CREATE something?"

Well this is impossible for us to answer since we are bound by the laws of time in our minds and bodies.

I disagree, just cuz we don't perceive something doesn't mean we can't understand it, at least in part.

You say that God had to wait inifinty to create something. Well obviously that�s wrong since we are here.

That's if you make the assumption that we're here because of some "God", and you know what happens when we assume, right? You said it's wrong, but if God is infinite then it's right! And if we're here, it just means that time doesn't exist. And if time doesn't exist, neither does creation, because creation is an aspect of time.

You can never understand infinity from a time bound perspective.

Infinity is a concept, and we can mathematically and logically understand what this concept implies, and what restrictions it offers, if true. You don't need to see 4 fingers in front of yourself to know 2+2=4, and neither do you need to see infinity to know what it means.

True, a finite perception cannot experience infinity, but it can understand what infinity is.

You will only end up comparing it to something you know wich is time. What if inifinity is something completely different than just infinite time?

I'm not asking what it is. I'm making my own definition by stating, "If there is an infinity of TIME, then..." and I then make an assertion based on that proposition. And yes, an infinity of linear time doesn't exist, and if time is not linear but instead is simultaneous, it really is no longer time is it? It's something else then! In that respect, I agree.

"then the question is: BEFORE he created the VERY FIRST THING EVER, what was he doing?"

Well he did create something the very first moment he came to be: Himself. Wich in your terms will mean that he didn�t spend infinity doing nothing cos he created himself as the first act.

Can't create yourself if you don't already exist. You said that NOTHING cannot exist then, in which case, something was here before "God", so he's not really GOD, as something else created HIM

Unless time doesn't exist, then there is no creation and only BEing!

Originally posted by mpeake
Once again, a very thorough and concise reply and I appreciate it Liblam! Thinking for ones self is (or the lack therof) is the most important thing an individual can ever do in life. The life we have is so saturated with the material things that people are not require to think for themselves, thus they lose thier identity. For example, "I think, therefore I am" is so true, so one can conclude that if you don't think for yourself then you have no "self". But that's sorta off topic here huh?

I'm not into topics, so go as "off topic" as your heart desires! I don't like restrictions, because very often what people consider "off topic" is directly or indirectly related to the "topic", even if they don't see the connection. And what you just said is very much related to the topic, maybe more than you realise as of now? Vast majority of people don't have much of a self, as most of their "decisions" and "choices" are forced, conditioned, programmed, and done without much thought. Even when they think they're applying "thought", usually it is guided and restricted severely, and therefore is not much thought at all, it is controlled within the "box" that is created for them.

Your interaction with "God" depends on how much faith you have in terms of your potential and the potential of creation itself. If you choose entropy, where you create a world of illusion and you fail to progress and learn, you are truly of little faith and you "reap what you sew". And I'm not talking about "faith" as in "belief", but I'm talking about faith where you realise the infinite potential of yourself and all that exists, and you embrace it by learning all you can about creation, and therefore raising your awareness level and progressing towards "God", as you follow the "creative principle". I know I used some unfamiliar terms to you, but I'm having issues with restraining myself here, because there is MUCH I'd like to share, but cannot, until asked, as I respect your free will (or try anyway, tho sometimes it's difficult when I'm so anxious to go all out!).

I gotta be honest with you and mOjOm. You 2 are both way out of my league when it comes to this topic. I am not ashamed to admit. Rather envyous of your knowledge, but hopefully as I go thru life that envy will change as I have grown in the field of "truth".

Let me fill you in on a little secret. You only know as much as you choose to know. If you instead choose to believe and assume, and practice "wishful thinking", then you are choosing not to know, and this is plain and simple to see and understand, isn't it? People have a fear of admitting to themselves and others a very simple thing: "I don't KNOW!". People choose to believe instead, to create the illusion of knowledge for themselves, as it is extremely insecure to "not know" and admit it to yourself. But until you are honest with your self, you will continue to live in an illusion! Why do you think even JESUS said over and over again, "KNOW THYSELF". Throughout the ages, this phrase has been reiterated by all the so-called "masters" and "gurus" of philosophy and greater knowledge, even if afterwards religions were created in their names, and their teachings corrupted and twisted for the benefit of the elite.

So what does "know thyself" mean to you? If you truly seek "higher knowledge" or "supreme knowledge" or let's cut out the adjectives and just say "knowledge", then knowing yourself is the very first step, because your programming and illusions are screening reality for you, preventing you from seeing what IS. Why do you think religions tell you to not question their doctrines? Upon open minded questioning comes realisation, that all of religions are controls, designed to inslave your entire being into subservience. God needs no WORSHIPPERS. God needs no rituals, no symbols, no bowing, no RESPECT, God needs nothing because he's ALL THAT IS. Any form of "obedience" and "worship" is designed by a control system, in order to prevent you from seeing the truth, and keeps you in "check" as you literally ARE AFRAID of questioning the "doctrines" for fear of some kind of PUNISHMENT. The mind programming is extremely powerful and hard to overcome, but when you do, you experience enlightenment (again that word, "Light"), and with that, comes knowledge and new awareness, beyond your wildest dreams at this point.

But the first step, is KNOW THYSELF. This is much more difficult and involved than meets the eye.

Fortunately for me, knowledge is not the same as intelligence. Intellegence is the ability to obtain knowledge, and that, I feel, is not lacking in myself. I thirst for knowledge. Until my progression gets to the next level I am forced to answer in my own way.

You see, your progression depends on your knowledge! It's not the other way around. The more effort you put in to understand and KNOW, the higher your awareness becomes, and when you know ENOUGH, you go to the next level of awareness, as your current form of existance will no longer suit you. However, the knowledge must be GAINED WITH EFFORT, you cannot sit there and wait for it to drop from the sky on you. If you don't put in the effort, you never rise to the "next level". You must build your own ladder to the next floor, you cannot sit around waiting to grow wings - it won't happen.

The points that Liblam bring up are meant to get me to challange the general "Christian" views of God and exixtence and I understand that I sound like I'm chock-full of em. My father was a pastor so it's sorta in my DNA, if you will, to have these views.

Is not! It's your choice to have them!

BUT, I am not a child anymore and do not see eye to eye with my upbringing. So, where does that put me? One could say that I beleive what I do because I am looking for an easy way out, or need to hold onto something that "feels good". If I saw someone say the things I do, I may have the same accusations. Let me put it like this, I beleive that all humans are born with the need to "beleive".

No, humans choose to believe. Why? Because we're all born SERVICE TO SELF. Belief comes with the territory! You know what I'd suggest? Get out of the habit of using the word belief in your lexicon. No longer believe things, try to arrive at your conclusions through RESEARCH and mental exercise instead. Our "need to believe" is really a DESIRE to believe, and we HAVE this desire because we are SERVICE TO SELF. This is not my belief, it is what I know from research and experience. You can know it too, and you don't have to "go it alone", there is help available when you ask. But you need to learn to truly ask first, which is a learning experience in and of itself.

To me, even the athiest need to beleive that they are thier own gods so to speak. If you disagree, I understand, I'm not getting into a philisophical debate with anyone here for sure!

But, I still feel that the need to beleive is in all of us. Why else would it be in the fabric of every race and creed.

I just told you, because all humans are service to self. Belief is a service to self action, it only serves you to pretend to know that which you do not! There is much more to this, but this is the "gist" of it.

So then, for me I beleive in a Creator of all things. However you want to put a spin on it feel free. For me it will always come back to the simple answer. God was, is, and will always be here.

Enjoy my ramblings!

Yes, he is, was, and always will be. But is "He" separate from his creation? If you are satisfied in your belief and want to stop there, that is your choice. But if ever you wish to open your mind and learn, where you don't "memorize dogma" or "believe teachings", but learn to think and figure things out through EFFORT, so you can KNOW it without doubt - then by all means don't hesitate, just go for it

You have your own path, as we all do. If you ever need help or want to discuss certain things, feel free to u2u me, as I'm always eager to network with those who ask. I learn more about you and your understanding, you learn more about mine, and we share knowledge that creates a balancing of energies. Networking is a SERVICE TO OTHERS principle, and even though all humans are service to self, some made the choice to learn and become service to others candidates, as they move closer and closer to that way of existance.

-Mike

[edit on 12-6-2004 by lilblam]

Couldn't the variable, "G", be the big bang...Another outside force that brought the components to the composite.

[edit on 12-6-2004 by Yngwie]

Originally posted by Yngwie
Couldn't the variable, "G", be the big bang...Another outside force that brought the components to the composite.

[edit on 12-6-2004 by Yngwie]

And what about before the big bang? There had to be something in existance for at least an eternity of time BEFORE big bang, if time exists. All I'm saying is that the "source" is not separate from the creation, because there is no CREATION when everything always was, Mr Malsteem! They are one and the same. Maybe the bing bang brought components to this universe, but where did the components come from? They had to come from SOMETHING. And if so, where did this something come from? This can go on for infinity, which it must. And if it does, how did it ever arrive at the point of the big bang, how could an infinity of linear things happen BEFORE the big bang, isn't infinity unsurpassable?

So to correct this problem, you eliminate time, and say everything exists simultaneously. In this way, there is no creation, just existance of all there is, and there is absolutely no limit to what exists! The universe is infinitely complex, and is so far beyond our understanding, that it's laughable to think that religions "have it all figured out"! But of course, that is why they ask you to believe them, because they can offer no knowledge, and tell you: "Assume we're RIGHT, or you'll burn in hell" and well, surprisingly many people fell for it because of their own service to self nature - they'd rather BELIEVE and ASSUME than run the risks of eternal damnation - even if such a risk doesn't even exist! They don't know, but they aren't taking any chances! If they only used their minds, they COULD know.

[edit on 13-6-2004 by lilblam]

Science AND Religion are both correct, and true in my view, the hardest part is not proving one or the other though. The most difficult task comes in finding out where both Subjects overlap, and support eachother. THAT is the real question.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Science AND Religion are both correct, and true in my view, the hardest part is not proving one or the other though. The most difficult task comes in finding out where both Subjects overlap, and support eachother. THAT is the real question.

Religion is a great deception, that has SOME truths but mostly lies, which are easier to swallow when packaged wrapped around in truths. It asks you to assume and believe contradictions and fantasies that have no basis in reality, nor CAN they if one applies critical thought and researches them.

Science, because of its own rigidity and self-limitation ALSO leads people astray. Yes, there are some truths there as well, but the inability of most scientists to think "outside their own bubble" in fear of "mockery" and "being kicked ouf of honorable scientific community" they conform to even SCIENTIFIC DOGMA! That phrase SHOULD be an oxymoron, but sadly it is not. Human scientists are taught that "if it cannot be counted, proven, or detected, then it doesn't exist". Everything that exists is supposed to be physical in nature (not tactile necessarily, but physical). Nothing "spiritual" or "ethereal" works for science, because that is unacceptable to the scientific community!

I prefer a merging of science and spirituality, where you extrat the TRUTHS from both and leave the lies (and there are MANY) alone. Then you do your own research and objectively and open mindedly try to understand truly how reality works, without conforming to ANYTHING so as to not RESTRICT yourself, as restrictions only stagnate your progress until you learn to get rid of them. This means you must NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING (which also means never believe anything), and seek to KNOW! This means one must be vigilant, patient, open minded, and have faith in yourself that KNOWLEDGE is all you need, that the potential to understand all that exists is THERE, and CAN be tapped into! Not faith in the sense of "belief"!

This state of being is apparently really hard to achieve for humans, and therefore very few actually learn truth. Perhaps one day something will happen that will cause this to change, perhaps not. Either way, this doesn't stop the individual from being on the path of truth, no matter if everyone else is basking in their illusions and PREFER IT that way. Free will is a wonderful thing indeed..

[edit on 13-6-2004 by lilblam]

The best place to hide the truth is to break it into fragments and hide it in between lies. So when opposing people/regilions/sciences try and find it they end up arguing who is right and loose sight of the goal. They infact ALL contain a piece of the puzzle. IMO

[edit on 14-6-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

I have only one question for god "why did you make carrottop and micheal jackson WHYWHYWHY"

Originally posted by thequietshaodw
I have only one question for god "why did you make carrottop and micheal jackson WHYWHYWHY"

God: Oh and you think I made him WHITE too? Wait till he dies and stands there in line waiting to get in Heaven! Who will recognize him? Not me! You see, when Michael went WHITE, he lost all of his "soul", get it?

badoont doont, ding. That was my rimshot

there is another being of emmense evil his name.........Richard Simmons

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Science AND Religion are both correct, and true in my view, the hardest part is not proving one or the other though. The most difficult task comes in finding out where both Subjects overlap, and support eachother. THAT is the real question.

Religion is a great deception, that has SOME truths but mostly lies, which are easier to swallow when packaged wrapped around in truths. It asks you to assume and believe contradictions and fantasies that have no basis in reality, nor CAN they if one applies critical thought and researches them.

Science, because of its own rigidity and self-limitation ALSO leads people astray. Yes, there are some truths there as well, but the inability of most scientists to think "outside their own bubble" in fear of "mockery" and "being kicked ouf of honorable scientific community" they conform to even SCIENTIFIC DOGMA! That phrase SHOULD be an oxymoron, but sadly it is not. Human scientists are taught that "if it cannot be counted, proven, or detected, then it doesn't exist". Everything that exists is supposed to be physical in nature (not tactile necessarily, but physical). Nothing "spiritual" or "ethereal" works for science, because that is unacceptable to the scientific community!

I prefer a merging of science and spirituality, where you extrat the TRUTHS from both and leave the lies (and there are MANY) alone. Then you do your own research and objectively and open mindedly try to understand truly how reality works, without conforming to ANYTHING so as to not RESTRICT yourself, as restrictions only stagnate your progress until you learn to get rid of them. This means you must NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING (which also means never believe anything), and seek to KNOW! This means one must be vigilant, patient, open minded, and have faith in yourself that KNOWLEDGE is all you need, that the potential to understand all that exists is THERE, and CAN be tapped into! Not faith in the sense of "belief"!

This state of being is apparently really hard to achieve for humans, and therefore very few actually learn truth. Perhaps one day something will happen that will cause this to change, perhaps not. Either way, this doesn't stop the individual from being on the path of truth, no matter if everyone else is basking in their illusions and PREFER IT that way. Free will is a wonderful thing indeed..

[edit on 13-6-2004 by lilblam]

You spoke a great amount of truth. Too often, I find individuals trying to limit themselves, either due to the fact they don't want to be laughed at, or because they don't have any faith in what is not already proven. I've always been a religious person, but, at the same time, I believe in Science. My quest is to prove to either side of the spectrum, that both have truths, and just because there aren't facts to back certain things up, it doesn't mean they can't be true. Sometimes people say God created everything, I don't doubt that, but when they say it can't be true if it's not in the Bible, I strongly disagree. God may have delivered the sermon of the Bible, but, at the same time, in my view, he gave us a brain for a reason. Too often, we, humans in general, don't use our brains. I for one, strive to.