Proof for God's Existence

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posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 02:36 AM
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Hi everyone!
Well, I've just registered on ATS and just read this forum. So, if God's out of time, then he can't create, that's obvious (for outside time there's no creation nor CHANGE, which are essential for life). If he's inside time, he can't see the exact consequences of his actions, and very likely, he's not omnipotent. Now, I was thinking, and it hit me like a brick... GOD IS TIME!
If he's Time, he can create, and he can see the consequences, the FUTURE. If he's Time, he really IS everywhere and in everything. We saw the Time is essential for life, then so is God! I think this explains a lot of things.




posted on Jun, 15 2004 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by Caius
Hi everyone!
Well, I've just registered on ATS and just read this forum. So, if God's out of time, then he can't create, that's obvious (for outside time there's no creation nor CHANGE, which are essential for life). If he's inside time, he can't see the exact consequences of his actions, and very likely, he's not omnipotent.
Now, I was thinking, and it hit me like a brick... GOD IS TIME!

I disagree. If time doesn't exist, and if only an illusion that we experience at our current level of awareness, then what? I think it is extremely likely that this is indeed the case.



If he's Time, he can create, and he can see the consequences, the FUTURE.

If he is time, and if you make the assumption that TIME can create things by being some sort of conscious entity, then he still couldn't know the future. The future is open because of free will. And, he couldn't create, because if God is TIME ITSELF then he is automatically TIMELESS! Why?

Because if TIME EXISTS then time must exist AT ALL TIMES (so if today time exists, then it existed yesterday and will exist tomorrow), and therefore God would be simultaneously in the past, present, and future. So it seems that even if he was time, he'd himself be timeless! We're the ones "travelling through time", or in your words "through God", so God is timeless! But he cannot still see our future because all possibilities exist, nor can he create.

But not only that, I disagree that time exists at all, so if you say "God is time" then God you're attributing Godliness to an illusion, in my view.



If he's Time, he really IS everywhere and in everything. We saw the Time is essential for life, then so is God! I think this explains a lot of things.


Time is essential for life? That's a huge assumption. Where did we see that? We don't know what existance is like outside of time, so by not having any knowledge of existance unlike our own, how can you make the assumption that our way of existance is THE ONLY WAY life can exist?

So by making God=Time, and time is something that logically doesn't make much sense (at least to me), then God would also not make much sense. Creation exists only when time exists, but if you ARE TIME ITSELF then you exist simultaneously at ALL TIMES, so you cannot create! But without creation, God isn't God anymore.

You can only see the future if the future is SET, that means no free will for anyone, not even YOURSELF. Because if you're God the creator, and you see the future, then of course you WILL have to make it happen, you'd have no choice. If you DO have a choice, then you cannot see what you will DECIDE to create at some point in the future. So if ANYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE has FREE WILL, then the future and the past and the present are all VARIABLE and OPEN, as infinite possibilities all exist. Why do they exist? Well in the scope of infinity they will exist, but one would have to make this infinity SIMULTANEOUS, because a linear infinity can NEVER BE REACHED. So if there is linear time and NO BEGINNING, then how did we breach infinity in order to be located at the "present time"? This makes very little sense to me, so time must be not time at all.

Unlike a movie tape, where the actors have no free will because the thing is pre-recorded, the universe/consciousness does have free will. And WE know what will happen at the end of the movie by fast forwarding, but in a reality with unlimited possibilities, we can only predict a PROBABLE future, not an ABSOLUTE future. And in fact, if one is outside the time, all probabilities/possibilities can be experienced simultaneously, yet you can choose to experience them "separately" if you so wish, your consciousness can focus on different points of REALITY ITSELF, and experience whatever you wish in any way you wish to experience it. There are NO LIMITS.

Any idea about God creates limitations and contradictions, where such simply doesn't exist. However, most people do not think for themselves, and can be tempted with future "rewards" like Heaven, and future "punishments" like Hell, to make them believe whatever you want them to believe, so that YOU can control them. But I think this is getting redundant, because those who wish to wake up and begin to SEE, will do so. Proof doesn't exist, so you cannot prove anything to anyone. If they wish to KNOW and UNDERSTAND, they can only do so through their own EFFORT (and they can receive help when they ask for it). But proof? There is no such thing.



posted on Jun, 16 2004 @ 05:00 AM
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Oh, well, I think you're right. But, then it's not true that a timeless conciousness cannot create. Or is it? Maybe out of time, you can 'see' our world like you can see a two-dimensional shape in the third dimension? That's the only way someone timeless can create, I think.



posted on Jun, 19 2004 @ 10:56 AM
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There are some excellent knowledgeable comments, and information in this thread.

I would like to add some thoughts to it all, firstly I find it quite incredible in this day and age, with the endless turmoil in the world why people still follow "Organized" religion with it's mysticism and mind controlling dogma and turn their backs on their own inborn spirituality, we are born with a spiritual "belief" (for want of a better word) and if we were left to explore this spirituality and discover our conscience this world would be a far better place.

I believe and have faith in 'conciousness' similar to what the buddhist believe, although not in it's entirety. God is universal consciousness, in the beginning there was ONLY this singular conciousness of God (not an entity, but PURE conscious energy) and from this, matter was created.....Of course this cannot be proven, nor should it be, as our 'goodness', our very being relies on FAITH. "Organized" religion removes that option and replaces it with a confusing mix of demands of obedience to man and not to our inner 'soul'. What is needed in our society is "knowledge" and guidance, not manmade control.

Here is an article I think helps a little towards understanding and knowledge, and also includes hints as to how and why Man usurped God's authority:

www.sol.com.au...

Atomic theory is an ancient science. The earliest record of it can be found in Vedic texts from india which are many thousands of years old.

Legend has it that the Vedic civilisation was highly advanced. The sages that oversaw its development, through their mystic insight and deep meditation, discovered the ancient symbols of spirituality: Aumkara and Swastika. They also discovered many scientific principles that they applied to develop a highly advanced technology. They gave the atom its sanskrit name "Anu".

While the technical achievements of this ancient civilisation have been forgotten the archetypal symbols of spirituality have maintained their eminence in our consciousness. Now, thanks to advances in modern atomic theory, the atomic basis of these divine symbols can be appreciated.

Western theories of the atom took shape in the 18th and 19th century. At the beginning of the 19th century, John Dalton theorised that an atom was an indivisible particle of an element. However, after the electron was discovered in 1897, and then the proton several years later, the atom model was revised. In 1909, Ernest Rutherford showed that atoms were mostly empty space, revising the model of an atom to a tight positive nucleus containing the protons and neutrons with electrons around it; by 1913, Danish physicist Neils Bohr envisioned a planetary arrangement in which the electrons orbited the nucleus at different energy levels.

The current way of describing an electron is a model called the charge cloud model/quantum mechanical model/orbital model. This model based on the idea of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which states that we do not know the precise location or the velocity of any given electron. The model uses indistinct and overlapping "probability clouds" to approximate the position of an electron.

Where a cloud is dense, the probability of finding an electron in that vicinity is low. In this model, each electron energy level is denoted by numbers that take concentric shells as suggested by the Bohr model because there are overlaps in the ordering of the energy levels.

In the case of the carbon atom the electrons occupy four tear drop shaped clouds in a tetrahedron-like arrangement. These clouds represent the areas in which the electrons spend most of their time. They move so rapidly in this zone that they form a cloud rather than a specific flight path

Recently a number of researchers have suggested that within these clouds exist specific zones that the electrons favour. These zones form a spiral around the surface of each of the tear drop shaped clouds.

This new development came into the attention of a great Indian saint and mystic. Disciples were encouraged to develop the principle as it related to the carbon atom.In deep meditation one of those disciples, who was a chemist,spontaneously realised the true significance of this theory:

The electron's high probability zone formed spiral standing waves around the carbon atom's nucleus. When this configuration was viewed from certain angles the physicist was surprised to find that the spirals formed recognisable symbols.

In the first view a 3–dimensional Aumkara could be seen. From a different angle that Aumkara became a flat, 2-dimensional Swastika. The Swastika, he concluded, was actually 2-D representation of the 3-D aumkara.

Rotating the model to another angle shows those symbols change into the Greek Alpha and Omega. At a cosmic level the symbols of Eastern spirituality (Aumkara and Swastika) are literally and only different aspects of the same spiritual truth that is also represented by the symbols of Western spirituality (Alpha and Omega).

All people, objects and even energy itself are expressions of the same divinity that so many religions, cultures and philosophies have tried to claim exclusively as their own.

The Carbon atom, by containing within it these universal symbols, demonstrates that matter is a manifestation of the same Divine consciousness experienced by the saints and sages of all history. Matter is innately spiritual.
The Universe does not exist separately from the Universal Consciousness; it is a direct expression of it.

Living matter, which is carbon based, must have a unique role in this expression. A saint is one who lives in eternal experience of this all pervading divine purpose.

All people, objects and even energy itself are expressions of the same divinity

The alpha and omega are traditionally ascribed to Christ. In india the Deity called Ganesha presides over the Swastika and Aumkara.

There are some remarkable similarities between the two:
Both deities demonstrate the value of childlike innocence; Ganesha is himself an eternal child famous for his simple wisdom ;while Christ, often exhorted his disciples to "be as little children";

They both are divine children; both conceived immaculately;, both divine sons of a holy trinity (Christ is the son of Yahweh and The Holy Spirit/Mary and Ganesha son of Lord Shiva and Mother Parvati).

Are Ganesha and Christ the one and the same deity?

Each, like their symbols that exist as different aspects of the carbon atom, represent different aspects of the archetypal cosmic child.

Thus the distinction between Eastern and Western spirituality, like any division based on race,culture or belief, is no more than ignorance of the true spiritual nature of the universe and all that exists within it.



posted on Sep, 26 2013 @ 01:53 PM
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Okay ... I tried to read it and am tripping over my own eyes. I"m going to post here to mark it so I'll remember to come back and read it in the morning when I have fresh eyes . It looks interesting.





 
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