Ancient Hopi Tell of Earths Multiple Destructions and of Atlantis.

reply to post by Nohup


Yep, the Hopi peoples have lots of different stories and there is no agreement on which is correct amongst themselves. There are at least two opposing stories as to the destruction of the third world occurred.

Howdy Ivanzana

Sorry, i couldn't make any sense of your last postl my friend. So what definition are you using?

Let me see if I can clear this up. Are you saying that the Hopi 3rd world was destroyed by a global flood-a flood in the biblical sense, all destroying? I believe you are - yet there is no evidence of said flood. We've known that for over 150 years.

Oh and I would think Waters translations of the myth is more accurate

The people repeatedly became distant from Sotuknang, the creator. Twice he destroyed the world (by fire and by cold) and recreated it while the few people who still lived by the laws of creation took shelter underground with the ants. When people became corrupt and warlike a third time, Sotuknang guided the ones who had retained their wisdom to Spider Woman, who cut down giant reeds and sheltered the people in the hollow stems with a little water and food. Sotuknang caused a great flood with rain and waves, and the people floated in their reeds for a long time. Finally, they came to rest on a small piece of land, and Spider Woman unsealed their reeds and pulled them out by the tops of their heads. They still had as much food as they started with. They sent out birds to find more land, but to no avail. They grew a tall reed and climbed it, but they saw only water. But guided by their inner wisdom (which comes from Sotuknang through the door at the top of their head), the people traveled on, using the reeds as canoes. They went northeast, finding progressively larger islands. The last of these was large and fruitful, and people wanted to stay there, but Spider Woman urged them on. They went further northeast, paddling hard as if going uphill, until they came to the Fourth World. The shores were rocky with seemingly no place to land, but by opening the doors at the tops of their head, they found a current that took them to a sandy beach. Sotuknang appeared and told them to look back, and they saw the islands, the last remnants of the Third World, sink into the ocean. [Waters, pp. 12-20]

Approximately 10,000 years ago, earth was emerging from its last ice age. The northern hemisphere was covered by huge glaciers and sheets of ice. Following the rapid warming of the planet, these icesheets melted. Millions of tons of fresh water poured into the ocean, raising the sea level by up to 400m.

Most ancient civilisations established themselves close to water, so when the sealevel rose, those early people would have lost their living space. Fleeing to higher ground, they would have had to start again. A traumatic event, certainly, and a good basis for developing flood myths.

The indundation described above was only the 'last ice age' suffered by the northern hemisphere in the last 40,000 years. Altogether there were three distinct glaciations with long warm, ice-free periods in between. So technically, this scenario could have played out several times over and any number of emerging civilisations could have been displaced and forced to start over.

www.helium.com...

Ancient civilizations established themselves next to rivers. If and when the water levels they just moved up and out of the river valley until the river stablized. Some civilizations are shown to have not established themselves next to water that would be effected by a sea water rise...one can think of Gobeki Tepe and Catal Huyuk and later the Central Americans

Some say a comet broke up into thousands of pieces which impacted a wide area, including a large part of the Atlantic Ocean off the U. S., sometime between 8500 to 9,000 B. C. Such an event would have caused super-tsunami waves that would have engulfed the low-lying regions of the Bahamas and Caribbean killing everything in their path.

[edit on 15-11-2008 by IvanZana]

Is there a printed book about these stories from 50+ years ago?

I ask because I have heard about many Hopi stories but of course they are from internet sites (and some / most were put on record recently) if you know what I mean.

If there is a printed source of Hopi tales before the late 70's please let me know.

reply to post by IvanZana


Yes but again that is NOT a world wide global flood. You are describing a regional effect.

Originally posted by infolurker
Is there a printed book about these stories from 50+ years ago?

I ask because I have heard about many Hopi stories but of course they are from internet sites (and some / most were put on record recently) if you know what I mean.

If there is a printed source of Hopi tales before the late 70's please let me know.

Excellent question, and right on the mark.

There are some VERY old books about Hopi and Navajo stories. The twins are featured in them. My memory is dim, but as I recall, they climbed up through a series of worlds and in the dim stories I remember there was no destruction of those earths.

I'll see what I can find.

The problem with many of these stories (as I found in a wonderful book at the Hot Springs National Park) is that they were sometimes invented out of nothing as advertising/promoting for something the Whites wanted to do. There are only a few scholars who were trusted by the Native Americans, so authentic (and faithful) recordings are hard to come by.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by IvanZana

 

Yes but again that is NOT a world wide global flood. You are describing a regional effect.

The bible stories were stolen from the epic of gilgamesh. In it it matches the hopi, land rose and land fell under the sea. Lots of land was melting like wax and flooding.

The bible is full of lies and stolen stories, it was intended to keep people ignorant!

reply to post by IvanZana


The myths themselves are much older than the bible. Remember, Judaism is a relatively new religion when it comes to the other older faiths out there. It is interesting how much the bible has "borrowed" other myths from the other cultures, including the flood myth.

hanslune i've read some of your posts in scott creighton's forum, i know you've got a lot of credibility as far as facts and science go. i tend to think that this world is very very old and has been a fully functioning planet for a very very long time. i'd like to know the ins and outs of these situations but knowing that older civilizations have been around would be a good start without all the details.

i can just imagine how many "worlds" have been on this planet. if only in the last 100,000 years or so we've had 4-5 worlds then who knows what's been here before.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by infolurker



The problem with many of these stories (as I found in a wonderful book at the Hot Springs National Park) is that they were sometimes invented out of nothing as advertising/promoting for something the Whites wanted to do.

I dont mean to offend you by pointing out your ignorance in the matter. I provided links to hundreds of different flood stories from many diffrent races, tribes and locales. For you to assume they were all written for some commercial success ,monetary gain or to "promote" some racial view against whites" is absolutly thoughtless, no?
www.ilhawaii.net...

There is nothing to debunk. The information presented has been passed down and predates most religions from the anicent Americas to the ancient East.

Hre is a links with almost every country having a flood 'myth' in their history. www.talkorigins.org...




[edit on 16-11-2008 by IvanZana]

[edit on 16-11-2008 by IvanZana]

[edit on 16-11-2008 by IvanZana]

North America

Innuit:
An unusually high tide caused a global flood. Shellfish and such things in the mountains are evidence of it. [Gaster, p. 120]

Eskimo (Orowignarak, Alaska):
A great inundation, together with an earthquake, swept the land so rapidly that only a few people escaped in their skin canoes to the tops of the highest mountains. [Frazer, p. 327]

Norton Sound Eskimo:
In the first days, the water from the sea came up and flooded all the earth except for a very high mountain in the middle. A few animals escaped to this mountain, and a few people survived in a boat, subsisting on fish. The people landed on the mountain as the water subsided and followed the retreating water to the coast. The animals also descended. [Gaster, p. 120]

Central Eskimo:
The ocean rose suddenly and continued rising until it covered even the tops of mountains. Ice drifted on the water, and when the flood subsided, ice was stranded to form ice-caps on the tops of mountains. The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today. Many people drowned, but many others were saved in their boats. [Frazer, pp. 327-328]

Tchiglit Eskimo (Point Barrow to Cape Bathurst):
A great flood broke over the land. Driven by the wind, it submerged people's dwellings. The people formed a raft by tying several boats together and pitched a tent against the icy blast. They huddled together for warmth as uprooted trees drifted past. Finally, a magician named An-odjium ("Son of the Owl") threw his bow in the water and commanded the wind to be calm. Then he threw in his earrings, causing the flood to subside. [Frazer, p. 327]

The evidence that modern homosapiens witnessed these major changes to earth in the last 30,000 years is undebatable.


In our million years+ plus history on this planet it would be extremely ignorant and rather stupid assume that we became modern only 6000 + years ago and that before that we lived in caves and were savages.

One thing that should be considered is how much attention was payed to the building to super megalithic structures all over this world in ancient times that could and would survive thousands of earthquakes, localized flooding, neglect, and ultimitely forgotton to be only swallowed up by water, sand or a jungle.

Why did they want these structures to last so long and built so strong that professionals are baffled to the reason for and method of their construction? They are surely earthquake and flood proof.

I wonder some of their storys seem far fetched,most will take their word as gospel,but it seems when they do the reading's they use a combination of jimson weed and other halicingetics,guess I would see all sorts of bizarre things too

Originally posted by Oldtimer2
I wonder some of their storys seem far fetched,most will take their word as gospel,but it seems when they do the reading's they use a combination of jimson weed and other halicingetics,guess I would see all sorts of bizarre things too

hey now hey now, psychedelics are greatly misunderstood. Yes they produce hallucinations, but this is not to say the hallucinations do not contain accurate information. Psychedelic divination and translation are shamanic arts, and I wouldn't be surprised in the least if modern practitioners were coming into the same information.

reply to post by kidflash2008


Religions tend to evolve, absorbing cultural aspects from other religions and beliefs as they age and mature.

You can see that in Christianity with its absorption of pagan and other beliefs, the AE beliefs system evolved over time, etc

reply to post by Mozzy


Howdy Mozzy

We have some idea of what happened before. We certainly don't know everything but one of the things that we haven't found is evidence of prior civilizations. They might be out there but we haven't found anything yet. I suspect we'll find more "less than primitive" cultures that are pre-'civilization' (compared to the standard definitions). Perhaps as far back as 15k BP.

Originally posted by IvanZana

North America

Innuit:
An unusually high tide caused a global flood. Shellfish and such things in the mountains are evidence of it. [Gaster, p. 120]

Eskimo (Orowignarak, Alaska):
A great inundation, together with an earthquake, swept the land so rapidly that only a few people escaped in their skin canoes to the tops of the highest mountains. [Frazer, p. 327]

Norton Sound Eskimo:
In the first days, the water from the sea came up and flooded all the earth except for a very high mountain in the middle. A few animals escaped to this mountain, and a few people survived in a boat, subsisting on fish. The people landed on the mountain as the water subsided and followed the retreating water to the coast. The animals also descended. [Gaster, p. 120]

Central Eskimo:
The ocean rose suddenly and continued rising until it covered even the tops of mountains. Ice drifted on the water, and when the flood subsided, ice was stranded to form ice-caps on the tops of mountains. The shells and bones of many shellfish, fish, seals, and whales were also left high above sea level, where they may be found today. Many people drowned, but many others were saved in their boats. [Frazer, pp. 327-328]

Tchiglit Eskimo (Point Barrow to Cape Bathurst):
A great flood broke over the land. Driven by the wind, it submerged people's dwellings. The people formed a raft by tying several boats together and pitched a tent against the icy blast. They huddled together for warmth as uprooted trees drifted past. Finally, a magician named An-odjium ("Son of the Owl") threw his bow in the water and commanded the wind to be calm. Then he threw in his earrings, causing the flood to subside. [Frazer, p. 327]

Humans were certainly around but did they record things accurately. We know that eye witnesses are often wrong.

So Ivan have you actually read those examples above?

They appear to me to be explanation of why the Inuit and others found fossils on tops of mountains and where ice capped mountains came from. Explanatory myths are not records of reality but stories to explain where things came from in a pre-scientific society.

Here is a challenge for you. Since you think these myths are all truthful - take a look at the ones that explain where and what the moon is.

Are those true?

(bb code)



[edit on 21/11/08 by Jbird]

Some responses Oh Dear,

OP Good Thread S+F,

A lot of the problem lays here with the same way, that most of the worlds very spiritual and tribal or isolated community’s history is interpreted by an invading dominating culture.

This has happened since the beginning of time.

They like the Hopi, like even very literary and "Book" or scholarly type cultures, for example the Tibetan's, usually pass on these parts of their "wisdom" or knowledge such as prophecies by an Oral transmission only.

This is done from Shaman to initiate, from Guru to Monk etc, as even within their own, as in our current culture, the "Secret" knowledge is compartmentalised. Now in our society the west Technology is our God.

We build and order our lives around it. A lot of the Way Way above super secret activities done this very day by Mi5 and the CIA is our culture, is kept away from the rest of Society.

We though as a culture tend not to so "Specialised" in one area and have learnt to become more dynamic in our approach to life, needing to keep information in a easily recorded written form to go back to it.
As the Technical world and its use and applications requires such a large volume of information just to re create a simple PC it has become our norm to record information like that.

We should not transpose our own cultures way of doing things onto another's, and then use that lack of apparent evidence within our own paradigm and way of learning, as proof they did not to have their own which was very different.

Using this same approach I could state that until the first Stealth plane flew, indeed if one had never been shown in public that it is evidence of it not existing, if I was an historian in 100 years time, and America was invaded and taken over by china tomorrow.

In addition the information they were passing on was less volumous and usually involved a way of learning how to Feel, Act, Behave, and ultimately how to Experience and View things for example.

Shamans can write thousand of words in book after book, I can interview them, watch them drum around a camp fire, talk with them record it, but it is a knowledge you don't write down from observing and being taught. I can see a shaman on a "quest" but never prove it happened, it is a type of knowledge that takes direct experience and indeed a way of life and usually interaction with someone who has done it before to be successful.

Give me an A4 of instructions of what buttons in what order to press and when and I can go into a factory tomorrow in our world view and make say a car.
Then then go away and "make" a new one like a blueprint, or Try It out.

However Give me a list of things to do about going on a Spirit "Quest" tomorrow with a Shaman, what feathers to wear, what beats to use, what gods/deities/animals to pray to and I would not be able to make that "Quest", as I had the car. (Well maybe I do but for illustration my little power ATS animals )

It is very different from our way of approaching things, it is more about the Experience.

I think the Mugabe transposition of his western (though he would hate to admit it!!) way of doing things, proves that this at some point in Human life as you go further back to our basic nature breaks down, as the Farming crisis proved.

Some Knowledge is not about information but experience and "Knowing".

Now for the same reason that the CIA keeps their prized Secret Plasma Hyper Ventil equilibrium Star Gate Transposing Buttons secret, and not open knowledge, so do these type of cultures do with their own knowledge, which as said is nearly almost always Religious or of a magical, influencing or medical nature.

The reasons for the secrecy are the same, flood the market tomorrow with Stealth plane Plans and it’s dangerous, both from within the culture and from outside to destroy or affect the stability of the status quo.

Tell every person in a tribe how to contact the Powers they believe are supernatural or of other dimensions, and the bad puppy in the litter, the ostracised one will be trying to call down the armies of hell into the tribe or his enemies.

If the shaman reveals his medical knowledge HIS worldview and belief is that he would suffer great misfortune etc if some sacred plants were not taken from the forest/desert plain in the right respectful manner. The shaman might find himself or his family being poisoned, as healers usually know the best way to do the opposite to by there very nature.

Are Dr's in our society very dangerous if they put their knowledge to the opposite of their oath?

Only those as in the shaman, or the Yogic aspirant in Tibet who are ready, have the right motivation and capability to use that information correctly are then given it.

What better way to keep a secret is there than not to have any physical record of it at all, until it is time, to pass it on to the next generation and the most trustworthy person within it?

Also rather than in the case of us, where our technological Secret information, is seen as just that information, no intrinsic value of its self, just a means of communicating ways to influence and create through the hands or something else on the material world we focus on "out there".

Once the stealth plane is made from the stolen secret plans, it is the thing that is valued, as long as we keep the plans safe and secret.

The traditional cultures I speak of see, or feel is a better description with their Worldview, something totally different especially as in the Case of the Native American Indian.

The actual words themselves have a Power, and energy to them, sound and symbols are seen as having real affects just in themselves. To utter something may help to bring it to pass. To write it down invokes the energies or deities of that sound or symbol.

This can be seen in the Buddhist tradition of Mantra's & chanting and in ancient magic as in sigils and such like.

To write prophecy down and speak of it often can call it into being.

The above though is being now more and more understood in our culture from self help e.g. Louise Hay and Hicks, What the Bleep The Secret etc

This is very important to get your head around if you ever feel there is not much evidence for these "tales" and myths that seem to come to pop culture and general western culture, from the few who have crossed the rivers of cultures and come back to our side of the river and spoken a little about what they found.

Until you cross the river it is ignorant to say you know what is on the other side just because you have a very old, broken and incomplete map with no known providence.

To surmise the above we should not transpose our way of proving something is true by having to Read (see touch feel) as a lack of evidence from these cultures of its truth.

Now I have really gone on above about this but it is really important and is the most defining difference between 99% of the western world for many hundreds of years now and traditional tribal/religious etc cultures.

Also these prophecies in the native culture are not seen as Certainties like in the modern western schools of religious thought, such as Revelations. They are either/or futures, and the prophecy usually denotes what is likely to happen, given the current conditions and actions of the group and world at large.

I will add more here tomorrow but its late now in the UK now so lets just give an example of known Hopi prophecy as my opening two paragraphs asserted for consideration after taking in the above, from more than 50 yrs ago and from western sources and what can be seen still today in regard to just the Hopi,

Now the first western reliable source I have ever been able to find of the meeting of the White man and the Hopi, which was then written down by our culture and not passed on word of mouth, lol , is as follows to an early Mormon Pioneer Andrew Smith Gibbons in 1847 and recorded by a descendant from family archives.

‘I am Tuba, son of Nuunu Rinwah and Quwonghoningway,’ he said in his native tongue, Naraguts interpreting, ‘I am chief of the Corn and Water Clan in this ancient village of Oraibi.

We have been waiting for you. Our fathers told us you would someday come from the west.

he also noted that in further contact and discourse upon friendship of sorts he was told:

Village elders said that they had long been told that some day men of light skin would come to their villages, not from the east, but from the west, would call them brother, and would tell them of their forefathers. Some of the Hopis, particularly Chief Tuba, believed that the Mormons truly were the white men mentioned in ancient prophecy

Saint & Savage, Helen Bay Gibbons (1965), Deserat Books 2000 (but this isn't the first print edition, just my copy, has a heavy Mormon as expected theme.)

I think we can say that fits our worldview as asked by some posters, more than 50 yrs old published by a westerner and recorded in 1847 ish by another westerner. Fits many of the sketchy similar things we hear today.

Now then we have the following from the sole surviving Hopi spokesperson on these things. He was charged in 1947 I think to pass on the teachings and messages.

He below describes the oral transmission as explained above of "Hopi prophecy rock" which is known to be as in old Australian aboriginal art etc to be genuine and maybe thousands of years old, certainly well before any western mainstream acceptance of the "Whiteman" arriving in north America, and even probably before any old Celts in corals in the 1st millennium :-)



Finally to the NOW and a message from the remaining elders to us:



Cross the river then say you know if the scraps of the map we have found are truth or not eh?

Kind regards,

Elf.

Its evident that people who oppose these views and evidence are only regurgitating material that we were taught in grade 3.

An intelligent person learns beyond what is taught.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by IvanZana]