The real reason why UFO researchers cant force disclosure

If indeed there is a UFO coverup, If indeed the government knows something, it wont be UFO researchers who pry it out. Much has been said in this arena that the government allegedly has a disinformation campaign and a campaign of ridiculing UFO witnesses, but I find this bullock, as it would be completely unnecessary for them to achieve the ends they allegdely want, that is for UFO witnesses and researchers to be looked down upon.

In ths instance, the UFO Research Arena as it is today is its own worst enemy. Critical thinking has been thrown out and skeptics seem to be frowned upon, and indeed thevery definition of what a skeptic is has been schewed.
Look at ATS, look at any other UFO site like this, their forums. Go to
a book store and look in the UFO book section. What will most of the books be? Legitamate scientific inquiries into a interesting topic in a effort
to gain knowledge? No. youll find new age books, alien channelings, books about alien abduction full of accounts under hypnosis but with no actual proof, youll find pseudo religious, conspiracy UFO books. The UFO book
authoring field is almost like a circus now, not a inquiry. Each actor trying to be more sensational then the last, hoping to make a living. It was alien abductions, then it was hybrids, and now its hybrid - colonization aliens saving man from doom psuedo religous crap. Youll find stuff by hoaxsters and frauds. UFO research.. that phrase seems incompatible with what the goal of research actually is.. "UFO Research" seems to have devolved into gathering grainy photos of bright lights and hypnosis recovered memories, and each time a book is written the stories grow more sensational but the evidence stays the same - zilch -.
You have plenty of hear say, so and so said so and so knows so and so who saw such and such.
Then you have ignorance.. not ignorance as in stupid, but ignorance as in a lack of knowledge that fuels alot of these so called conspiracy theories, from forests on mars to hoaxed moon landings to artifical structures, these things are fed into the arena and linked with aliens with no real proof, yet many in the UFO research arena buy them. Even here as demonstrated. A new sensationalist post is made, with suspect pictures or a outrageous story and people will discuss what the OP said as if it were a matter of fact, and when someone steps in with a skeptical eye its met sometimes with irritance or hostility, indeed the UFOr esearch field is not very kind to skeptics. Skeptics are not merely people who disbelieve something, they merely require proof. Skepticism is the scientific method, it is the pure review, it is the experimentatin and testing that any hypothesis must go through and survive before it can become a theory, but god forbid its introduced in UFO research. This is why people buy into things like Niburu without researching and finding out just how scienc can show it is not so.
You find paranoia. People want to believ everything NASA does is a conspiracy. From Hoagland to moon hoaxes.. and today, people suspecting the phoenix lander going offline was something more, even though this had been anticipated...These conspiracy theories gain traction because people are willfully ignorant (not stupid, but as in a lack of knowledge) of the facts many times and thus the stories propogate until its sensationalized when a little bit of research would have shown the truth.
You find religousness - many books written or articles written about the UFO-scriptures etc. all sorts f psuedo religious beliefs crafted as a result of UFOs.
You find presumption - assuming something is UFO related when it isnt.
Case in point on youtube there is a video of some guy at a gas station..in the first part it shows him walking around outside... then the camera malfunctions..when function is restored it is 2 hours later and said man is vomitting in the parkling lot.. the video doesnt show any UFOs, no aliens, no bright lights, no nothing, but someone ran with it and is painting it as video of an alien abduction.
You find frauds: Like Whitley Streiber, Phillip Corso, Bob Lazar, Dr Greer and others who only seek fame or fortune from their exploits. Indeed the UFO phenomenon is a circus, everyones got an act and an audience.
Youll find uber-conspiracy: trying to link conspiracy theories together in a grand design, kennedy, UFOs,free masons and the illuminati with UFO nazi technology.
From channeling aliens, to hoaxes, to sensationalist baseless stories, to it all, and a willing audience many of whom will buy it hook line and sinker and the skeptics be damned, they represent the UFO money pot from which barnum and bailey of the UFO circus seek their funds.

So what can the UFO research field do? If there is a cover up, and there ever is to be disclosure, the UFO field must divide. Those who seek legitmate and scientific inquiry in the topic must break away from the sensationalists, from the hoaxers the frauds, the religous new ager alien messiah types, the paranoid, the conspiracy-around-every corner types.
it must branch off, and disassociate with it. It must never acknowledge the aforementioned as even a serious inquiry. The aforementioned should not be allowed to represent UFO research.

UFO research must present a unified, scientifc approach, and accept conclusions no matter what they are. If it leads to a alien reality, great so be it, but if it shows that the so called cover up is hot air then so be it.

Otherwise, the way the UFO field now is, with all these elements mixed into one circus, the govenrment never needed a disinformation or ridicule campaign. the UFO research arena has done that for them. If there is a cover up, all they need do is point, and say "Nutters".

It's really a big government plan to keep us hooked on UFO's and the NWO while they really do something else completely different behind our backs without us having any idea what they're doing...



lol I am kind of kidding but you never know. It could be true.

there's still legit scientists interested in the phenomenon, and still great books out too. Try reading "UFO's And The National Security State" By Richard Dolan. He's thorough, and sticks to the facts.

Skeptics are looked down on because of the ridiculous explanations they give to unexplainable things.

I think UFO's are working their way back into the mainstream. Look at how many shows Larry King has done( and look at how insane his skeptics sound). It's too easy to find someone who has seen something really strange. Everybody knows somebody at this point.

Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
there's still legit scientists interested in the phenomenon, and still great books out too. Try reading "UFO's And The National Security State" By Richard Dolan. He's thorough, and sticks to the facts.

Skeptics are looked down on because of the ridiculous explanations they give to unexplainable things.

I think UFO's are working their way back into the mainstream. Look at how many shows Larry King has done( and look at how insane his skeptics sound). It's too easy to find someone who has seen something really strange. Everybody knows somebody at this point.

But does he goven any proof in his book for his claim? Most books of that nature give anecdotal proof at best but nothing hard.
And secondly, your going to say skeptics come up with wild explanations?

lets see.. saving us from Niburu, saving us from armageddon, the moon landings hoaxed, crashed UFO etc.
All of the aforementioned have been proposed as explanations by people from different sides of the phenomenon as explanations for various phenomenon, but a skeptic, who might say that a UFO a person saw was really the ISS going overhead, THEY are the one coming up with the crazy explanation...ok.


As far as legit scientsist, who? The UFO phenomenon has descended into such nuttery that any real scientist who rsearchs the topic will have a black mark of shame on his or her career and be considered "fringe".

reply to post by NavalFC


NavalFC - absolutely spot on - word perfect in fact.

More power to your elbow friend.

Originally posted by NavalFC

the govenrment never needed a disinformation or ridicule campaign.

gov funded ridicule campaign proven...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM

The Panel's concept of a broad educational program integrating efforts of all concerned agencies was that it should have two major aims: training and "debunking."




The "debunking" aim would result in reduction in public interest in "flying saucers" which today evokes a strong psychological reaction. This education could be accomplished by mass media such as television, motion pictures, and popular articles. Basis of such education would be actual case histories which had been puzzling at first but later explained. As in the case of conjuring tricks, there is much less stimulation if the "secret" is known.

You're GOING to have NUTTERS anywhere in life.
You're saying you don't have your fair share of "NUTTERS" in the NAVY, NAVALFC?

try something as bland and everyday as christian religous extremism... or islam for that matter... plennnnty of "nutters" there buddy.

Look anywhere long enough, and you're gonna find nutters.


as far as a government funded ridicule campaign, it's needed, for national security.
You NEED people to not take this stuff seriously, so that interest wanes and becomes an "unattractive" issue for must.. lest they be ostracized from their social groups.
It NEEDS to be this way, to keep steady the most sensetive information known to man.

oh look .. out my window .. a man talking to himself as he collects bottles..
another nutter eh?
they're everywhere...

and they'll come up with waaaay more CRAZY crap out of their heads than authentic nazi bell craft blueprints, government funded psychic research, or MKULTRA court cases.


oh and nutters nevvver get to be head of state right?

knock of your condescending holier then though crap.. it's old as hell.

nutters are everywhere.
stop attacking ATS conversationalists passive aggressively in lengthy over the top posts.

I DECRY BIG FOE RANTS!
including yours.

-

[edit on 11-11-2008 by prevenge]

reply to post by NavalFC

You make a very sound argument NavalFC

However, I think that the way you categorize believers and skeptics is quite limited so to speak.

I'm a believer that extraterrestrials exist and have probably visited, but that's where it ends for me. I agree with you that all this Nibiru, NWO, moon bases theories and such are highly unlikely(if not impossible) and unfortunately, pseudo religions have been created over the decades in UFOlogy because of such ridiculous theories without any evidence either.

But just because I'm a believer, doesn't mean that I belief every piece of bull I come across. Some things can be answered with logic and common sense. And in some cases, there is no conventional explanation.

And although as you say, that the bookstores are filled mostly with mythology and new age religion stuff when related with UFOlogy, that doesn't mean that there aren't any REAL scientific studies concerning UFOs. One of the posters above me mentioned Richard Dolan's book "UFO's and the national security state".. this book is one example of pure, unbiased investigation.. one that you(as a skeptic) should be probably read up on.

Anyhow, again I say that you make a good argument.. and even though I am a believer, I am also a skeptic when it comes to most information I read and/or receive. UFOlogy certainly needs to distance itself from all the associated mythology and hoaxers for that matter, otherwise as it stands, disclosure will never be achieved.

Originally posted by prevenge

Originally posted by NavalFC

the govenrment never needed a disinformation or ridicule campaign.

gov funded ridicule campaign proven...
www.abovetopsecret.com...


-

[edit on 11-11-2008 by prevenge]

wow..misrepresenting a report and taking a law that no longer exists out of context. yep you sure did it...proof!

....not.

Originally posted by Majorion
reply to post by NavalFC

 

You make a very sound argument NavalFC

However, I think that the way you categorize believers and skeptics is quite limited so to speak.

I'm a believer that extraterrestrials exist and have probably visited, but that's where it ends for me. I agree with you that all this Nibiru, NWO, moon bases theories and such are highly unlikely(if not impossible) and unfortunately, pseudo religions have been created over the decades in UFOlogy because of such ridiculous theories without any evidence either.

But just because I'm a believer, doesn't mean that I belief every piece of bull I come across. Some things can be answered with logic and common sense. And in some cases, there is no conventional explanation.

And although as you say, that the bookstores are filled mostly with mythology and new age religion stuff when related with UFOlogy, that doesn't mean that there aren't any REAL scientific studies concerning UFOs. One of the posters above me mentioned Richard Dolan's book "UFO's and the national security state".. this book is one example of pure, unbiased investigation.. one that you(as a skeptic) should be probably read up on.

Anyhow, again I say that you make a good argument.. and even though I am a believer, I am also a skeptic when it comes to most information I read and/or receive. UFOlogy certainly needs to distance itself from all the associated mythology and hoaxers for that matter, otherwise as it stands, disclosure will never be achieved.

I didnt say there was zero scientific inquiry... what I said was that as it stands now, its all mixed together. Theres nothing to elevate them from the rest of the UFO arena..which is why the intelligensia, those who do want true scientific inquiry, need to sever themselves from the UFO arena as it is now, and seperate themselves and shun the rest.

Originally posted by NavalFC
Otherwise, the way the UFO field now is, with all these elements mixed into one circus, the govenrment never needed a disinformation or ridicule campaign. the UFO research arena has done that for them. If there is a cover up, all they need do is point, and say "Nutters".

Interesting, but speculation on lots of point. You specify people who wouldn't agree to that specification. You point out socalled deceivers, while you don't have proof of that. The whole field is see/hear/hearsay and hear-hearsay and so on. Nothing can be proven without doubt. Is is a swamp, so it is up to who you believe. I choose to believe some people for the time being like Dave Adair of Corso sr. and some others, but is purely personal, but does not bring me any further, if its true, it is up to wahtevr is living out there to show itself. You are seeking for a unity you cannot create here.

So everybody can and may say: "Nutters" So what, time will tell. Maybe...

reply to post by NavalFC


Hi NavalFC,

Normally I wouldn't read something as verbose as your OP but for some reason I decided to stick with it and read yours.

I have to say that I agree with 99% of what you have layed out on the table here. It's true - UFOlogy has been hijacked by hoaxers, con men and kooks but it seems to have always been this way.

All you have to do is go back in time to people like Adamski who's UFO footage along with his claims are complete rubbish. Even as a child I watched his footage and though,

"what level headed person could look at these and believe they are real, is there something wrong with them"? "Surely they can see that the UFO is a poorly executed 'cut-out' hanging from a tree branch"?

Sadly no they don't and this lack of critical thinking combined with the 'need to believe' any old trash that has played a big hand in giving UFOlogy a bad name.

Sure there are the rare few investigators that are trying to make a good fist of it but they are grossly outnumbered by the fringe elements. Then you have people like the UFO Hunters who claim to be taking a 'scientific approach' but their methods have been found to be sadly lacking too.

It's a sad state of affairs but I don't expect any change.. not to be pessimistic but as this forum has shown me time and time again, people have to want to change. There is no amount of logic or critical thinking that can change a persons belief system. You can only hope that eventually something will click as they begin to tire of constant disappointment/disillusionment.

A unified goal seems impossible at this point.

Star & Flag mate!

IRM

I disagree with your description of the UFO research field. Not everyone talking/writing about UFOs and aliens is a researcher, the same way that not everyone talking about science is a scientist.

You have charlatans using pseudo-science to make money, just as you have charlatans using the UFO phenomena to do the same.

There are alot of good and serious researchers, using scientific methods, to research the UFO phenomena. Unfortunately, they are a minority. But those are the UFO researchers, the charlatans and kooks, are not - they're just groupies, religious fanatics and opportunists of the UFO phenomena.

Having said that, I think one of the reasons there is so much nonsense in the UFO field, is because there's also deliberate attempts to ridicule the seriousness of the UFO phenomena and derail the scientific research and inquiry.

You apparently don't think there's any involvement of Governmental/Military agencies in the UFO field, I think otherwise. While I have no way of knowing the current involvement of any Gov/Mil agency in the field, one thing's for sure, there has been involvement in the past.

Even assuming 100% of UFOs were man made, you don't think some agency would make use of disinformation to cover up their operations? They have in the past, it's likely they continue to.

I suggest that you check out CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90, written by the Agency's own Historian. While I obviously do not buy everything (or anything) that comes out of the Agency's mouth, it's interesting to note that the CIA has no problems admitting to disinformation campaigns in the past regarding UFOs:

According to later estimates from CIA officials who worked on the U-2 project and the OXCART (SR-71, or Blackbird) project, over half of all UFO reports from the late 1950s through the 1960s were accounted for by manned reconnaissance flights (namely the U-2) over the United States. This led the Air Force to make misleading and deceptive statements to the public in order to allay public fears and to protect an extraordinarily sensitive national security project. While perhaps justified, this deception added fuel to the later conspiracy theories and the coverup controversy of the 1970s.

While I'm first in line, along side you, criticizing the current state of the UFO field, we should never judge the quality of the research based on the number of charlatans.

It's up to everyone, UFO skeptics and 'believers', to critically and scientifically (if possible) analyze the videos, photos and stories. It's the only way to improve the quality of the discussion, and ultimately, the research.

edit: fixed link

[edit on 11-11-2008 by danx]

The reason why UFO researchers can't force disclosure is because most of them are apathetic and lazy. I still say we have enough numbers to force it if we all wrote letters and called once in a while.

Originally posted by NavalFC
You find frauds: Like Whitley Streiber, Phillip Corso, Bob Lazar, Dr Greer and others who only seek fame or fortune from their exploits

Can you provide any evidence that Strieber and Corso are frauds? Strieber was already fairly famous when he started writing of these experiences and I find it hard to believe he would put his family through years of ridicule just for the sake of his own fame and fortune.

Again with Corso if these were his motivations why did he wait until he was 80 to publish his account? It didn't do him much good as he died a year after.

As has been said often before, there is no such thing as "disclosure." Disclosure is a rainbow people chase that they will never catch.

No? Look at it this way. The U.S. government has already stated, and continues to state, that their analysis indicates UFOs do not represent a threat to national security. That's disclosure. They're not saying they know what these things are, or that they don't know what these things are. And you wouldn't expect them to say that, would you? That's a national security issue in itself. You never tell potential enemies what you know, or what you don't know.

So what more do you want? Oh, you want the TRUTH. Well, how would you know the truth if you heard it? If the government came out tomorrow and announced that UFOs are space ships piloted or controlled by alien creatures from other planets, would you believe them? Why? Just because it might happen to coincide with your personal beliefs? That's a pretty lousy way to determine the truth of anything. "It confirms my irrational belief, so it must be true!" If you buy the government's alien story, you're just being a sucker.

It wouldn't take long for someone (maybe you) would wonder what angle the government was playing by telling the alien lie. A cover-up of the fact that UFOs are mostly time traveler ships? You bet the government would want to keep knowledge of the future secret. Or maybe they're making up this whole alien scenario to push their New World Order agenda. To convince people of the Earth to submit to a one-world government as protection against The Evil (or at least suspicious) Aliens. And just because the government might explain a few UFO sightings as alien, what about the others? Were they all alien, or were some of them something else?

And if the government knows about these aliens, have they been in contact with them? Have they made deals with the aliens to sell us out as experimental subjects or something, like cattle? What kind of secret negotiations have been going on? After all, if the government has lied to us for so long about this stuff, what makes us think they're not still lying?

So that would start another demand for the REAL TRUTH, not just the phony stories and lies the government has cooked up to placate the masses while they work their own evil agenda.

See? When would it stop? That's the reason why there will never be disclosure. Because it's a flawed concept to begin with. "Truth" is only what you're willing to settle for.

Originally posted by prevenge

Originally posted by NavalFC

the govenrment never needed a disinformation or ridicule campaign.

gov funded ridicule campaign proven...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM

The Panel's concept of a broad educational program integrating efforts of all concerned agencies was that it should have two major aims: training and "debunking."




The "debunking" aim would result in reduction in public interest in "flying saucers" which today evokes a strong psychological reaction. This education could be accomplished by mass media such as television, motion pictures, and popular articles. Basis of such education would be actual case histories which had been puzzling at first but later explained. As in the case of conjuring tricks, there is much less stimulation if the "secret" is known.

You're GOING to have NUTTERS anywhere in life.
You're saying you don't have your fair share of "NUTTERS" in the NAVY, NAVALFC?

try something as bland and everyday as christian religous extremism... or islam for that matter... plennnnty of "nutters" there buddy.

Look anywhere long enough, and you're gonna find nutters.


as far as a government funded ridicule campaign, it's needed, for national security.
You NEED people to not take this stuff seriously, so that interest wanes and becomes an "unattractive" issue for must.. lest they be ostracized from their social groups.
It NEEDS to be this way, to keep steady the most sensetive information known to man.

oh look .. out my window .. a man talking to himself as he collects bottles..
another nutter eh?
they're everywhere...

and they'll come up with waaaay more CRAZY crap out of their heads than authentic nazi bell craft blueprints, government funded psychic research, or MKULTRA court cases.


oh and nutters nevvver get to be head of state right?

knock of your condescending holier then though crap.. it's old as hell.

nutters are everywhere.
stop attacking ATS conversationalists passive aggressively in lengthy over the top posts.

I DECRY BIG FOE RANTS!
including yours.

-

[edit on 11-11-2008 by prevenge]

But thats just it. a Govrnment funded ridicule campaign wouldnt be needed due to the fact that the UFO field as it is today ridicules itself.

I can understand your frustration NavalFC, there are to many -truths-out there and only the faintist glimmers of what the truth of our place in this strange existence actually is. Who out there knows the truth? Many -claim-to but if there is speaker of the truth their voice is swallowed in a roar disinformation artists(intentional or not). Additionally our own civilization has reached a point where our level of technology can keep pace with our paranoia.

What do I mean?

If I posted an actual pic of an alien craft there would be a storm of skeptics screaming "CGI". On the other hand others would believe it was true if it was clearly a hoax.

And there we are, we don't believe -anything- of a paranormal nature unless it lands in our laps. Then we know the truth but we are then an island standing with a few others on the sandy beach of truth island. We know -something- is going on but we are presented with the cost of truth, do we share what we know even though it will bring laughter or ridicule? or do we stay quiet and live life in the fog of our spoon fed reality?

Anyway this subject of our place in the universe in relation to our extra Earth peers (if you can call them that) is long past due for serious study and disclosure. The question then becomes "Can we retain our identity as Humans when this knowledge is obtained."

The only thing I -know- is that is that we are not alone (I removed the word "believe" from my dictionary on this subject) and that others on this planet have a greater access to the truth but beyond that I am in the dark.

Originally posted by NavalFC
But thats just it. a Govrnment funded ridicule campaign wouldnt be needed due to the fact that the UFO field as it is today ridicules itself.

First of all, the UFO phenomena - and therefor UFO field - didn't start 'today'. Secondly, we know the Military/Air Force and CIA and other agencies were interested in UFOs in the past, to the point of even conducting public 'studies' (ie Project Blue Book).

Project Blue Book which was closed down because the Condon Report concluded that there was nothing of interest or substantive to UFOs.

One (of many) interesting details regarding the Condon Report however, is that apparently the Conclusion was written by Edward Condon before the rest of the report was even written...

Craig's notes of his all-day meeting with Condon and other project staff on Sept. 13, 1968, begin with Condon presenting his draft "Conclusions and Recommendations" chapter. Condon had not read the rest of the report because he wrote this Conclusions chapter before the rest of the report had even been written. (source)

I respect your opinion, but looking at the documentation that has been declassified and the past actions of the Military and Government, even though I can't obviously say for sure what influence Gov/Mil Agencies had/have in the UFO field, one thing's pretty sure to me: there has been some shady stuff going on.

reply to post by Nohup


They can say whatever they want, and I won't necessarily believe them.

I want disclosure of the EVIDENCE. Now, that would be a different kettle of fish, wouldn't it? Alien ships or ship parts, bodies or body parts, lab test results, documents...

If there is a coverup, there has to be evidence of what's been being covered up. I don't want anyone to say "ok there's been a coverup, they really are aliens," I want to see the real evidence. Release it all! Let us see the undoctored images of space, the Moon, and Mars. Let us see the objects recovered from Roswell and Kecksberg and other crash sites. Let us see the radar blips, the pictures, the videos. That's what I would call disclosure.

Originally posted by NavalFC
But does he goven any proof in his book for his claim? Most books of that nature give anecdotal proof at best but nothing hard.

There is no hard evidence that prove ETs don't exist either.

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

- Clifford Stone