Socialised Healthcare - American Views Needed

FIRST, its not American - its European-style.

SECOND, its socialism.

SOCIALISM - the government gives you what IT decides you need whether you like it/want it OR NOT.

Next comes, "preventative healthcare"... The government then forces you to get flu shots even if you don't want them in order to "save money" spent on treatment.

THIRD, the government already gave my daughter (my only child) brain damage (autism) with their vaccines, and I don't want them to get their grubby paws on my nieces and nephews (the last stand of the bloodline).

FOURTH, I don't want them placing me in a home against my will when I am retired.

If you allow the government to "preserve" your life, you allow the government to run your life. I truly wonder if anyone in the UK/Europe understands the stubborn need for individual freedom we Americans have? Is this lack of understanding why they are so hostile towards our policies and have so much misunderstanding concerning our actions?

I want personal responsibility and personal reliability in every area of my life. I want to learn and do everything I possibly can to take care of myself because I DO NOT trust anyone else with my life - because it is MY LIFE!

Originally posted by TheHypnoToad

Originally posted by chickenshoes
And,no doctor is required to treat a person who has no ability to pay.

This might be true for a family practice physician, or some clinic, but it is definitely not true at hospitals if you are in a life-threatening emergency situation.

Hospitals are required to stabilize patients before transferring them to a charity hospital. If you come in the ER bleeding to death from gunshot wounds, they cannot just shove you right back out the door because you don't have insurance.

well, tell ya what, go and break your ankle.....and tell me you can get the proper care to be able to walk again without a nice hefty downpayment or some type of insurance. all that hospital will do is slap a splint on your foot and send you to a specialist...who, well, ain't gonna want to do what is needed unless you flip him an insurance card or a nice sum of cash!
or well, hurt yourself mildly, and then miss a few days of work, if you are lucky, you might have a nice boss who will let it slide. but if you are not lucky, you're boss might have some lamb brained rule that says that you can't miss more than a day or two without having a note from you doctor, so, now you are hurt, and still have to go to work....not all of us have nice cushy desk jobs, some of us actually WORK at work...so, you can be hurting like hell and still have to be lifting a few tons of crap everyday if you want to earn the money to live.. and, well, guess what, the boss wants a doctor's note before you will lighten your load....

then well, there's the matter that well....the doctor I have now seems to be more of a drug pusher, doesn't seem to be that much interested in finding out what the problems are,.....my foot pain = osteoporousis or whatever=these nice little bills over here that are to be taken the rest of your life to build the bones, while it's creating a whole mess of other problems that you will have to take more pills for in time! a lump in your stomach accompanied by pain will = funny little pills that will reduce the acid in your stomach and well....you can take those little pillls the rest of your life.
ect. ect....while he's pushing his danged drugs on you, not one thought ever crosses his mind that hey, you are still working, got to, if not for the simple fact that you need the healthinsurance so you can keep going back to him for the danged pills for the rest of your life....your working in pain, making the problem worse, and coming home so danged hurt and tired (try limping around all day and compare it to doing the same thing without a limp)..you are wasting your energy by the limp, and you are damaging your body more with it....

my problem with socialized healthcare, is that it will put the governement, society in charge of your healthcare.... they will be sticking their nose into your diet, questioning your exercise routine, and forcing you to take those funny little pills that are gonna just create tons of new problems along with the ones you have now....
but, by no means are they gonna take the time out of their busy lives to actually diagnose any problem, or write a danged letter to your boss letting him know that you shouldn't really be lifting that ton of magnet everyday, or actually treat the danged problem!
quite frankly, I am beginning to wonder if maybe being without the healthinsurance most of my life may have extended my life....
seems like those who have had that insurance all along are one this pill, then this one over here to take care of the side effect of that pill, and then there's this one over here to help with the problem of that pill, ect...down the line...
MAKING PEOPLE SICK, JUST SO YOU CAN TREAT THEM AND MAKE MORE MONEY OFF THEM IS THE FIRST THING THAT HAS TO GO!
god, I got better treatment in my childhood from my doctor when I swung by his home to meet up with his daughter on the way to school!
my credit card is about maxed out because of healthcare bills, my insurance ain't gonna pay squat till I make more bills, and the care I get isn't worth crap, especially since well, I still have to go to work every day just to preserve that insurance and that means I am making the problems worse!

do something, anything, but the current system is crap! our whole economy is struggling with the bills from it, probably close to 50% of the bankruptcies are being filed because of healthcare costs, and from what I have seen, all they are doing is convincing the masses that they have to be taking some pretty toxic stuff the rest of their lives!

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by chickenshoes

 

I can only speak for the UK, but the idea you put forth of a hardworking man suddenly struck down by an affliction through no fault of his isnt the average scenario.

I would say first of all, the lowest paid members of US society get about $15,000 a year right? Are we to assume that they pay for their accomodation, food and essentials out of this $15,000 and are left with nothing? If so, that is an issue of wage levels. Why are these people earning such a pittance? Why are they only capable of being in jobs with such a wage bracket? Why are they not attempting to earn more money, or cut down on expenditure to pay for their own healthcare.

If you feel strongly about helping those with disease, you should give freely to charity without coercion. I have donated significant amounts of money to Cancer Research charities in the UK. I believe that in the long term, this will benefit cancer sufferers much more than simply paying for one course of treatement with an overpriced proprietary pharmaceutical. I truly believe in the power of charity. Where there is a moral obstacle to be overcome, people will do it of their own volition to the degree they can. Forcing anyone into paying for another man's treatment regardless of the situations surrounding the case is not acceptable in my opinion. Even worse is this concept that majority confers some right to force others to pay for other's medicine (ie like if Tom forces Brad to pay for Jim's medicine).


I would actually like to ask you a few questions sir. Please dont feel like I am singling you out in a negative way, I would just like to hear your side of the story.

a. Why are you in a job which leaves you without enough money to buy insurance? Do you feel this was your own fault/ choice?

b. Do you think it is fair for you to force (through a vote) richer people to pay for your insurance?

c. Do you think that government/ society has an obligation to take care of you; or compensate you for the position that you were born in/ the path you chose?

Again, please dont think those are hostile, Im genuinely interested to know your views!

umm...ya, I make less than $15,000/yr...
I'm a screen printer, made less doing more work when I was in NY, but still don't make enough to actually pay my own way in life. there was a time, when if I could only made more, I would have taken the kids and left my husband and well, with his child support, I would have been able to live without government handouts. that money never came, the kids are now grown, and well......heck with that idea...
are you saying that all those little screenprinters out there, all those cashiers, all those file clerks, heck, I was manufacturing gaskets for our navy jets and not making enough money....
well, that we all should just go out and get higher paying jobs??
even if we could.....tell me, who would be making the gaskets for our navy jets, or checking out our groceries, or screen printing your little signs or t-shirts....I've seen machinist jobs paying less than what it takes to live, who's gonna make your next auto part that gives up the ghost. who's gonna wait on you next time you visit the resturant?
the answer isn't that all these people need to find better paying jobs! they have jobs now that society is more than happy to take advantage of their products and services...
the problem is that society is too greedy to actually see the need to pay them what they should be getting paid....
that is left to charity, or the government programs, whatever...
and well, society, being as dumb as they are, end up paying much more, because it costs more for the money to be funneled through all these government programs than it would to just pay them the danged money!

like my husband said...
at least the danged doctor could give me one of those lovely little handicapped stickers to go into the window of the car...what the heck, I've seen lots of people jumping out of their cars and running into the store, getting around much better than I can on my best days.....who knows, maybe I would go out more often, ya know, go along with my h usband to the grocery store, ect.....if I didn't have to walk through half the parking lot just to get to the front door of the supermarket!

but, oh, ya....those little signs require being able to actually pursue treatment from the healthcare industry....money and insurance!! wouldn't be one bit surprised if my money helped the person jumping out of her car and running into the store get her little sign...but well....I can just keep on crippling myself till I can't even crawl to the danged car....and still would left hanging!

the day you are willing to live without file clerks, without cashiers, without waitresses, without half of your production force, machinists, ecct. ect. ect.....is the day you idea that we should just go out and find better jobs will be taken seriously!

still would like to see them just drop the social safety net......just to find out just how our economy would handle it!

reply to post by dawnstar


Supply and demand.

If you didn't do those jobs, one of two things would occur:

1. The salaries would go up to try and get more people into the jobs.

2. Outsourcing/ immigration.

I really cant understand your gripe. The simple reason that menial jobs are so poorly paid is that the employees are easily replaced. There is no skill basis to the majority of them, and immigrants/ outsourcing easily solves the problem. Education allows people to build a skill base and enter jobs which aren't easily replaced. Scientists, doctors, engineers etc are basically worth what they are capable of (innovation, healing etc), and these functions cannot be outsourced. Gasket making etc can easily be sent overseas.

I know what I am saying is rather heartless, but you are under the delusion that menial jobs are vital to the economy. Frankly if you refuse to do it, someone else will. Why do you think there are so many "illegal aliens" going into America to do menial jobs?

I dont really understand what you're trying to say about handicapped stickers etc...

In my opinion, the engine of the American economy is commerce. Small businesses contribute a vast amount more in terms of GDP than menial workers. The image of the hard working machinist on the factory floor is a vestigial remnant of the collectivist era of the past. If you want to know the real workers vital to the American nation, go and find the doctors and nurses, engineers and scientists, designers and architects, shop owners and service providers. Those are the jobs that are vital to the economy, not the grocery baggers and road sweepers.

no the salaries, won't go up, because, some, many would prefer to be taking that low salary than have it go up, unless it goes up alot!!
because, ya see......
regardless of weather you are talking about an immigrant, or an native born american filling these jobs.....
quite often, it's the AMERICAN TAXPAYER that is helping to keep them alive!!!

and that is my gripe!!
it would overall...cost a heck of alot less if we just paid them a wage that would pay for them to have a roof over their head for their family, food on the table, healthcare when they need it, ect!

reply to post by dawnstar


What you're suggesting would stifle business growth and lead to mass unemployment, since instead of employing 2 people who cost 50 dollars, the employer would have to employ 1 person costing 100 dollars. The net result is still the same in terms of reliance upon the welfare safety net; but this would also prevent business efficiency, thereby driving trade elsewhere.

There is no other way to uplift people other than education and a change in sectors from secondary to tertiary. Thats why Britain became the richest country in the world during the industrial revolution, as they went from primary to secondary. The only way to ensure everyone progresses is to have a change into the quaternary sector (ie innovation). Those who remain in the lower sectors will always struggle.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


No soulslayer, you are wrong. You are correct when you say that there is no skill set and employees are thusly easily replaceable in menial jobs. What people are trying to make you understand is that somebody HAS to do the menial jobs for society to function. Not everyone can be a high level employee earning a six figure income as the economy simply couldn't support it. If you are trying to suggest that everyone would be payed the same, then that sounds like communism to me.

Now onto socialised healthcare. I have only ever been seriously ill once in my 29 years of living and it happened to be while i was on holiday in Cuba. Whilst the quality of the equipment was not quite to the same standard as here in the UK, the quality of my doctor and care was. She had me in and out in 20 minutes with a prescription that cleared everything up in 3 days. (It was a tropical disease that caused my glands to swell up to the size of grapefruits - not pretty!) So to say that the quality of care goes down is simply not true.

As for paying for it being theft and the government being allowed to dictate how you live your life - untrue - to a certain extent. The government always tells you how to live, even in America with your every man for himself sickcare. Think about it:

1. You can't smoke indoors

2. Speed limits on roads

3. 21 to drink booze

And probably loads of other things that exist to "look out for your health and safety".

Here in the UK, the tax collected from cigarette and tobacco sales is more than the entire budget of the NHS so me and my smoking buddies actually pay for the ENTIRE thing. And the gov. has some change left over. And healthy sporty people are just as capable of self inflicted injury as a smoker is of developing lung cancer.

America, I would say to you embrace the change and go with it. If after a few years you feel you are being hard done by you can always break one of your limbs to claim it back!!!!

I mean i was thinking i might just burn my house down to get my moneys worth from the fire brigade.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by dawnstar

 

Supply and demand.

If you didn't do those jobs, one of two things would occur:

1. The salaries would go up to try and get more people into the jobs.

2. Outsourcing/ immigration.

First item is naive, second is true but cynical. People need to eat and therefore cannot just "don't do" these jobs. Your unemployment benefits, not being rich in the first place, are going to expire and you'll need to verify with Social Security that a job for you does not exist. You get the drift?

Number two... I say end illegal immigration and deport the ilelgals who are already here, and put a stopper on outsourcing.

I don't see anything wrong with people doing menial jobs. Thing is, and I would agree with you, is that they should really pay normal wage.


[edit on 17-11-2008 by buddhasystem]

The efficacy of healthcare depends upon where the issue lies on a country's priority list. There are many rumors circulating in the United States about how socialized healthcare will result in increased wait times, poor treatment quality, and low-paid medical professionals. However, one has to examine where countries priorities lie. As of 2010, the US military budget was 683.7 billion dollars (en.wikipedia.org...). If the US government shaved that budget by just 1/16, the US could afford to build thousands of hospitals and employee tens of thousands of medical professionals. Out of all of the countries in the world, the US is in the best position to create the most effective socialized healthcare system for citizens. Unfortunately, pharmaceutical companies and medical insurance companies have become very good at social engineering. The media portrays socialized healthcare to be ineffective both practically and financially.

Hopefully, as the medical situation gets worse and the United States, people will realize that we have exhausted every option that relies on privatized for-profit medicine. It really is silly that in this day and age people don't realize that a service that's as critical to the well-being of citizens such as healthcare should be socialized. After all, could you imagine reverting back to a fire service or a police service that was for-profit privatized? No? Then why healthcare?

America HAS socialized medicine.

Veterans Affairs. You can't see a doctor, you see a Nurse Practitioner managing everything as well as pretending to be a Doctor.

They reuse medical stuff that shoud be thrown away infecting hundreds of thousands of Americans every year with HIV, herpes, and many other diseases.

They can't afford to stock surgical rooms with basic supplies. Can't afford Doctors and Specialists and have been contracting out for them and barely finding a few who'll take the little they pay....for a few months anyways.

If you have cancer eating you away and need Controlled Substances like narcotics refilled routinely every 30 days....you're SOL on getting in to see a Doctor to sign the refill. The Nurse Practitioner running the show can't sign the refill, only real Doctors can.

It's a shame we force our military to a high standard but America let its Medical Field be ran by incompetents who couldn't work at Taco Bell without getting fired. Maybe America did it on purpose to save money and beat China in the economic numbers war....

America's been killing off far more of its own than if we went into a full blown war with the Chinese. Obama should be charged with Treason over what the murders covered up under the guise of "healthcare".

reply to post by vapedson


not having insurance mattered to me....
the only reason I managed to get taken care of was that a state representative heard about me and intervened...

if he hadn't, I would not be working today, I would not be walking today!!!!

and, I still owe quite a bit of money on that one, it wasn't "free"

the only thing that they need to take care of life threatening emergencies...
so, well, if you break a major bone, don't count on nothing more than a splint being slapped on, maybe some painkillers given to ya and to be sent home with a name of a doctor to follow up with...
who will either want a large down payment, or an insurance card!!!

Originally posted by skeptic1

Plus, if the system is socialized, I think that will cut back on the competition to be the best. I have several chronic illnesses, and I want to go to the best. The best doctor that has worked to prove he is the best. The best hospital that has competed and improved their technology to be the best.

My worry is that if things are socialized and/or standardized, there won't be as much effort put into being the "best" because there won't be any reason to work to get there.

I have many friends who work in the NHS and I can assure you they are the very best at what they do. Unfortunately there is now competition in the NHS and it has brought in some problems, I believe this has to stop as people will be treated as numbers. The NHS is not perfect, but, I love it, and I like many others, would be prepared to burn down Parliament if they decide to privatise it. If I get hit by a car an ambulance will pick me up and take me to casualty, without checking I have the right insurance. I have had two surgeries on the NHS and some scans, and yes I had to wait, the longest was 4 months for an operation, but I wasn't in pain whilst waiting and it wasn't serious, my friend had Liver cancer and was seen by the top specialist in the country, after 4 days of being diagnosed, so the idea that we get seen by under qualified back street surgeons, and have to wait for ever is a myth. Waiting list are high sometimes because of many different factors, one can be the seriousness of your condition, others depend on where you live, this does need looking at, sometimes it is down to who is in power at Number 10, right now we have the Tories who, have no interest in keeping the NHS despite what they say as it is Tory belief that there should be no NHS. Many hospitals are tied into the Universities in the UK, and their research improves technology and understanding of diseases all the time. The Staff of the NHS do a very difficult job, under constant scrutiny by the right wing press and opportunist MPs, and while certain private backers can help with research and such, I believe it should stay public and free on delivery, you guys have the right to bare arms we have the right to socialised health care.:-) You are right though, the government should keep there noses out, the position of Health Minister should be scrapped and replaced by position that can only be filled by a qualified medical professional who knows exactly what the NHS needs, and is voted for by other medical professionals, instead of a cluesless and inept carrer politician like we have now and in the past, who is only trying score cheap political points for their party whilst putting lives and public health at risk

Peace :-)

This is one topic I have discussed at length with my American relatives, and to be honest it seems to me any comparison between what is being implemented in America and elsewhere shares a name only.. Socialised Medicine, which really seems like a semi-private way of leveraging the already squeezed wallets of the average American.

The fundamental question in my head is why the American Government already spend a similar amount (per person) to the NHS in terms on things like Medicare/aid(?) and yet is not achieving anywhere near the economy of scale it could, add that to the existing funding paid in insurance and it seems like you spend at least 2x the amount the UK does, yet can sill only come up with a similar level of healthcare..

And no I am not suggesting the NHS is best, but I do wish it was better and would certainly pay more to make it better..

Back on topic, so baring in mind you already pay more for healthcare than we do while getting a similar level of care it boggles my mind why any American would want to pay more into a systems that seems to me is not giving the American people value for money.

By my reckoning Americans should be the healthiest people on the planet, or at the very least even the poorest American should already have open access to the best treatments..

Since that is not happening, it seems obvious (well that is how it seems to me) that the system is broken, and the recent push for a bigger spend, seems more akin to throwing good money into a back hole, rather than giving the American people deserved value for money for the healthcare they are already paying for.

For what it is worth, while the NHS is born out of a socialist government after WW2, that is NOT it origins, it's origins are with the wealthy and middle classes during the Great Depression, these where the people who dug forever deeper into their pockets to help out the less fortunate and suffering. And from what I have read most of those putting their hands in their pockets where deeply Conservative in their views.. the whole benefits system is born out of their generosity and kindness, not some socialist nightmare.

Originally posted by HillbillyHippie
FIRST, its not American - its European-style.

SECOND, its socialism.

SOCIALISM - the government gives you what IT decides you need whether you like it/want it OR NOT.

Next comes, "preventative healthcare"... The government then forces you to get flu shots even if you don't want them in order to "save money" spent on treatment.

THIRD, the government already gave my daughter (my only child) brain damage (autism) with their vaccines, and I don't want them to get their grubby paws on my nieces and nephews (the last stand of the bloodline).

FOURTH, I don't want them placing me in a home against my will when I am retired.

If you allow the government to "preserve" your life, you allow the government to run your life. I truly wonder if anyone in the UK/Europe understands the stubborn need for individual freedom we Americans have? Is this lack of understanding why they are so hostile towards our policies and have so much misunderstanding concerning our actions?

I want personal responsibility and personal reliability in every area of my life. I want to learn and do everything I possibly can to take care of myself because I DO NOT trust anyone else with my life - because it is MY LIFE!

Socialism is not this great big evil you Americans have been led to believe, there are good and bad parts, just like there are good and bad parts of Capitalism.

Our government does not force us to have Flu Vaccines, it reccomends it for the elderly and children under a certain age, we are not required to have it though. Preventative Healthcare makes sense, if you take steps to look after yourself you free up beds and Staff to look after people who need it.

I feel for you about your daughter, I truly do, my nephew was born with Autism, I know how difficult that can be, (however we get a lot of help from Social Services for the disabled in the UK, It's centred around the individual and focuses on independent living. I gather you would probably have to have some kind of medical insurance for her condition, correct me if I'm wrong). Forgive my ignorance, but I've never heard of Flu vaccines causing such severe side Effects.

People are not placed in Homes against their will in the UK, the legislation for Sectioning the Mentally Ill or placing the elderly in a home is very complicated perhaps too complicated, many things have to be looked at or done before anything like that is considered. Care for the elderly, the disabled and mentally Ill in the UK is run by Local Councils, some do it well, some don't, unfortunately, mine is very good, but the whole idea is based around independent living, where possible. If people have the ability to make choices in their lives then those choices will be respected, we do not round up our elderly like stray dogs and drop them in homes.

Sometimes your stubborn need as you describe it, for individual Freedom, can come across as selfishness, I mean no offence, but it's an attitude that is all 'Me Me Me' 'what about me?', not everybody is like you, and the choice should be there for people aren't. We have the choice to have private care too in the UK, but they will not take high risk cases as they will not take the responsibility, fthey would rather NHS do it. To put your care in the hands of Private medicine, is a bigger risk, I feel than to put it in the hands of Social services or the NHS. Our Social healthcare departments have many strict guidlelines to follow and do so, these are there for public safety, not to control people, as you have been led to believe, unfortunately in my experience the private sector cuts corners to save cost, risking the health and well being of the individual, maybe not so much in medicine, but especially in care for the elderly and disabled, If my mum needed care in the future, I would much rather it come from Social Services than any private care supplier any day. It's fine if you want to be in control of your life, no one is stopping you, the same way no-one stops us :-)