FIRST, its not American - its European-style.
SECOND, its socialism.
SOCIALISM - the government gives you what IT decides you need whether you like it/want it OR NOT.
Next comes, "preventative healthcare"... The government then forces you to get flu shots even if you don't want them in order to "save money"
spent on treatment.
THIRD, the government already gave my daughter (my only child) brain damage (autism) with their vaccines, and I don't want them to get their grubby
paws on my nieces and nephews (the last stand of the bloodline).
FOURTH, I don't want them placing me in a home against my will when I am retired.
If you allow the government to "preserve" your life, you allow the government to run your life. I truly wonder if anyone in the UK/Europe
understands the stubborn need for individual freedom we Americans have? Is this lack of understanding why they are so hostile towards our policies
and have so much misunderstanding concerning our actions?
I want personal responsibility and personal reliability in every area of my life. I want to learn and do everything I possibly can to take care of
myself because I DO NOT trust anyone else with my life - because it is MY LIFE!
Socialised Healthcare - American Views Needed, page 6
privacy
reply posted on 16-11-2008 @ 08:22 AM by dawnstar
Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by chickenshoes
I can only speak for the UK, but the idea you put forth of a hardworking man suddenly struck down by an affliction through no fault of his isnt the average scenario.
I would say first of all, the lowest paid members of US society get about $15,000 a year right? Are we to assume that they pay for their accomodation, food and essentials out of this $15,000 and are left with nothing? If so, that is an issue of wage levels. Why are these people earning such a pittance? Why are they only capable of being in jobs with such a wage bracket? Why are they not attempting to earn more money, or cut down on expenditure to pay for their own healthcare.
If you feel strongly about helping those with disease, you should give freely to charity without coercion. I have donated significant amounts of money to Cancer Research charities in the UK. I believe that in the long term, this will benefit cancer sufferers much more than simply paying for one course of treatement with an overpriced proprietary pharmaceutical. I truly believe in the power of charity. Where there is a moral obstacle to be overcome, people will do it of their own volition to the degree they can. Forcing anyone into paying for another man's treatment regardless of the situations surrounding the case is not acceptable in my opinion. Even worse is this concept that majority confers some right to force others to pay for other's medicine (ie like if Tom forces Brad to pay for Jim's medicine).
I would actually like to ask you a few questions sir. Please dont feel like I am singling you out in a negative way, I would just like to hear your side of the story.
a. Why are you in a job which leaves you without enough money to buy insurance? Do you feel this was your own fault/ choice?
b. Do you think it is fair for you to force (through a vote) richer people to pay for your insurance?
c. Do you think that government/ society has an obligation to take care of you; or compensate you for the position that you were born in/ the path you chose?
Again, please dont think those are hostile, Im genuinely interested to know your views!
umm...ya, I make less than $15,000/yr...
I'm a screen printer, made less doing more work when I was in NY, but still don't make enough to actually pay my own way in life. there was a time, when if I could only made more, I would have taken the kids and left my husband and well, with his child support, I would have been able to live without government handouts. that money never came, the kids are now grown, and well......heck with that idea...
are you saying that all those little screenprinters out there, all those cashiers, all those file clerks, heck, I was manufacturing gaskets for our navy jets and not making enough money....
well, that we all should just go out and get higher paying jobs??
even if we could.....tell me, who would be making the gaskets for our navy jets, or checking out our groceries, or screen printing your little signs or t-shirts....I've seen machinist jobs paying less than what it takes to live, who's gonna make your next auto part that gives up the ghost. who's gonna wait on you next time you visit the resturant?
the answer isn't that all these people need to find better paying jobs! they have jobs now that society is more than happy to take advantage of their products and services...
the problem is that society is too greedy to actually see the need to pay them what they should be getting paid....
that is left to charity, or the government programs, whatever...
and well, society, being as dumb as they are, end up paying much more, because it costs more for the money to be funneled through all these government programs than it would to just pay them the danged money!
like my husband said...
at least the danged doctor could give me one of those lovely little handicapped stickers to go into the window of the car...what the heck, I've seen lots of people jumping out of their cars and running into the store, getting around much better than I can on my best days.....who knows, maybe I would go out more often, ya know, go along with my h usband to the grocery store, ect.....if I didn't have to walk through half the parking lot just to get to the front door of the supermarket!
but, oh, ya....those little signs require being able to actually pursue treatment from the healthcare industry....money and insurance!! wouldn't be one bit surprised if my money helped the person jumping out of her car and running into the store get her little sign...but well....I can just keep on crippling myself till I can't even crawl to the danged car....and still would left hanging!
the day you are willing to live without file clerks, without cashiers, without waitresses, without half of your production force, machinists, ecct. ect. ect.....is the day you idea that we should just go out and find better jobs will be taken seriously!
still would like to see them just drop the social safety net......just to find out just how our economy would handle it!
reply posted on 17-11-2008 @ 05:05 AM by 44soulslayer
reply to post by dawnstar
Supply and demand.
If you didn't do those jobs, one of two things would occur:
1. The salaries would go up to try and get more people into the jobs.
2. Outsourcing/ immigration.
I really cant understand your gripe. The simple reason that menial jobs are so poorly paid is that the employees are easily replaced. There is no skill basis to the majority of them, and immigrants/ outsourcing easily solves the problem. Education allows people to build a skill base and enter jobs which aren't easily replaced. Scientists, doctors, engineers etc are basically worth what they are capable of (innovation, healing etc), and these functions cannot be outsourced. Gasket making etc can easily be sent overseas.
I know what I am saying is rather heartless, but you are under the delusion that menial jobs are vital to the economy. Frankly if you refuse to do it, someone else will. Why do you think there are so many "illegal aliens" going into America to do menial jobs?
I dont really understand what you're trying to say about handicapped stickers etc...
In my opinion, the engine of the American economy is commerce. Small businesses contribute a vast amount more in terms of GDP than menial workers. The image of the hard working machinist on the factory floor is a vestigial remnant of the collectivist era of the past. If you want to know the real workers vital to the American nation, go and find the doctors and nurses, engineers and scientists, designers and architects, shop owners and service providers. Those are the jobs that are vital to the economy, not the grocery baggers and road sweepers.
Supply and demand.
If you didn't do those jobs, one of two things would occur:
1. The salaries would go up to try and get more people into the jobs.
2. Outsourcing/ immigration.
I really cant understand your gripe. The simple reason that menial jobs are so poorly paid is that the employees are easily replaced. There is no skill basis to the majority of them, and immigrants/ outsourcing easily solves the problem. Education allows people to build a skill base and enter jobs which aren't easily replaced. Scientists, doctors, engineers etc are basically worth what they are capable of (innovation, healing etc), and these functions cannot be outsourced. Gasket making etc can easily be sent overseas.
I know what I am saying is rather heartless, but you are under the delusion that menial jobs are vital to the economy. Frankly if you refuse to do it, someone else will. Why do you think there are so many "illegal aliens" going into America to do menial jobs?
I dont really understand what you're trying to say about handicapped stickers etc...
In my opinion, the engine of the American economy is commerce. Small businesses contribute a vast amount more in terms of GDP than menial workers. The image of the hard working machinist on the factory floor is a vestigial remnant of the collectivist era of the past. If you want to know the real workers vital to the American nation, go and find the doctors and nurses, engineers and scientists, designers and architects, shop owners and service providers. Those are the jobs that are vital to the economy, not the grocery baggers and road sweepers.
reply posted on 17-11-2008 @ 05:58 AM by 44soulslayer
reply to post by dawnstar
What you're suggesting would stifle business growth and lead to mass unemployment, since instead of employing 2 people who cost 50 dollars, the employer would have to employ 1 person costing 100 dollars. The net result is still the same in terms of reliance upon the welfare safety net; but this would also prevent business efficiency, thereby driving trade elsewhere.
There is no other way to uplift people other than education and a change in sectors from secondary to tertiary. Thats why Britain became the richest country in the world during the industrial revolution, as they went from primary to secondary. The only way to ensure everyone progresses is to have a change into the quaternary sector (ie innovation). Those who remain in the lower sectors will always struggle.
What you're suggesting would stifle business growth and lead to mass unemployment, since instead of employing 2 people who cost 50 dollars, the employer would have to employ 1 person costing 100 dollars. The net result is still the same in terms of reliance upon the welfare safety net; but this would also prevent business efficiency, thereby driving trade elsewhere.
There is no other way to uplift people other than education and a change in sectors from secondary to tertiary. Thats why Britain became the richest country in the world during the industrial revolution, as they went from primary to secondary. The only way to ensure everyone progresses is to have a change into the quaternary sector (ie innovation). Those who remain in the lower sectors will always struggle.
reply posted on 17-11-2008 @ 09:27 AM by buddhasystem
Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by dawnstar
Supply and demand.
If you didn't do those jobs, one of two things would occur:
1. The salaries would go up to try and get more people into the jobs.
2. Outsourcing/ immigration.
First item is naive, second is true but cynical. People need to eat and therefore cannot just "don't do" these jobs. Your unemployment benefits, not being rich in the first place, are going to expire and you'll need to verify with Social Security that a job for you does not exist. You get the drift?
Number two... I say end illegal immigration and deport the ilelgals who are already here, and put a stopper on outsourcing.
I don't see anything wrong with people doing menial jobs. Thing is, and I would agree with you, is that they should really pay normal wage.
[edit on 17-11-2008 by buddhasystem]
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