FIRST, its not American - its European-style.

SECOND, its socialism.

SOCIALISM - the government gives you what IT decides you need whether you like it/want it OR NOT.

Next comes, "preventative healthcare"... The government then forces you to get flu shots even if you don't want them in order to "save money" spent on treatment.

THIRD, the government already gave my daughter (my only child) brain damage (autism) with their vaccines, and I don't want them to get their grubby paws on my nieces and nephews (the last stand of the bloodline).

FOURTH, I don't want them placing me in a home against my will when I am retired.

If you allow the government to "preserve" your life, you allow the government to run your life. I truly wonder if anyone in the UK/Europe understands the stubborn need for individual freedom we Americans have? Is this lack of understanding why they are so hostile towards our policies and have so much misunderstanding concerning our actions?

I want personal responsibility and personal reliability in every area of my life. I want to learn and do everything I possibly can to take care of myself because I DO NOT trust anyone else with my life - because it is MY LIFE!

Originally posted by TheHypnoToad

Originally posted by chickenshoes
And,no doctor is required to treat a person who has no ability to pay.

This might be true for a family practice physician, or some clinic, but it is definitely not true at hospitals if you are in a life-threatening emergency situation.

Hospitals are required to stabilize patients before transferring them to a charity hospital. If you come in the ER bleeding to death from gunshot wounds, they cannot just shove you right back out the door because you don't have insurance.

well, tell ya what, go and break your ankle.....and tell me you can get the proper care to be able to walk again without a nice hefty downpayment or some type of insurance. all that hospital will do is slap a splint on your foot and send you to a specialist...who, well, ain't gonna want to do what is needed unless you flip him an insurance card or a nice sum of cash!
or well, hurt yourself mildly, and then miss a few days of work, if you are lucky, you might have a nice boss who will let it slide. but if you are not lucky, you're boss might have some lamb brained rule that says that you can't miss more than a day or two without having a note from you doctor, so, now you are hurt, and still have to go to work....not all of us have nice cushy desk jobs, some of us actually WORK at work...so, you can be hurting like hell and still have to be lifting a few tons of crap everyday if you want to earn the money to live.. and, well, guess what, the boss wants a doctor's note before you will lighten your load....

then well, there's the matter that well....the doctor I have now seems to be more of a drug pusher, doesn't seem to be that much interested in finding out what the problems are,.....my foot pain = osteoporousis or whatever=these nice little bills over here that are to be taken the rest of your life to build the bones, while it's creating a whole mess of other problems that you will have to take more pills for in time! a lump in your stomach accompanied by pain will = funny little pills that will reduce the acid in your stomach and well....you can take those little pillls the rest of your life.
ect. ect....while he's pushing his danged drugs on you, not one thought ever crosses his mind that hey, you are still working, got to, if not for the simple fact that you need the healthinsurance so you can keep going back to him for the danged pills for the rest of your life....your working in pain, making the problem worse, and coming home so danged hurt and tired (try limping around all day and compare it to doing the same thing without a limp)..you are wasting your energy by the limp, and you are damaging your body more with it....

my problem with socialized healthcare, is that it will put the governement, society in charge of your healthcare.... they will be sticking their nose into your diet, questioning your exercise routine, and forcing you to take those funny little pills that are gonna just create tons of new problems along with the ones you have now....
but, by no means are they gonna take the time out of their busy lives to actually diagnose any problem, or write a danged letter to your boss letting him know that you shouldn't really be lifting that ton of magnet everyday, or actually treat the danged problem!
quite frankly, I am beginning to wonder if maybe being without the healthinsurance most of my life may have extended my life....
seems like those who have had that insurance all along are one this pill, then this one over here to take care of the side effect of that pill, and then there's this one over here to help with the problem of that pill, ect...down the line...
MAKING PEOPLE SICK, JUST SO YOU CAN TREAT THEM AND MAKE MORE MONEY OFF THEM IS THE FIRST THING THAT HAS TO GO!
god, I got better treatment in my childhood from my doctor when I swung by his home to meet up with his daughter on the way to school!
my credit card is about maxed out because of healthcare bills, my insurance ain't gonna pay squat till I make more bills, and the care I get isn't worth crap, especially since well, I still have to go to work every day just to preserve that insurance and that means I am making the problems worse!

do something, anything, but the current system is crap! our whole economy is struggling with the bills from it, probably close to 50% of the bankruptcies are being filed because of healthcare costs, and from what I have seen, all they are doing is convincing the masses that they have to be taking some pretty toxic stuff the rest of their lives!

no the salaries, won't go up, because, some, many would prefer to be taking that low salary than have it go up, unless it goes up alot!!
because, ya see......
regardless of weather you are talking about an immigrant, or an native born american filling these jobs.....
quite often, it's the AMERICAN TAXPAYER that is helping to keep them alive!!!

and that is my gripe!!
it would overall...cost a heck of alot less if we just paid them a wage that would pay for them to have a roof over their head for their family, food on the table, healthcare when they need it, ect!

America HAS socialized medicine.

Veterans Affairs. You can't see a doctor, you see a Nurse Practitioner managing everything as well as pretending to be a Doctor.

They reuse medical stuff that shoud be thrown away infecting hundreds of thousands of Americans every year with HIV, herpes, and many other diseases.

They can't afford to stock surgical rooms with basic supplies. Can't afford Doctors and Specialists and have been contracting out for them and barely finding a few who'll take the little they pay....for a few months anyways.

If you have cancer eating you away and need Controlled Substances like narcotics refilled routinely every 30 days....you're SOL on getting in to see a Doctor to sign the refill. The Nurse Practitioner running the show can't sign the refill, only real Doctors can.

It's a shame we force our military to a high standard but America let its Medical Field be ran by incompetents who couldn't work at Taco Bell without getting fired. Maybe America did it on purpose to save money and beat China in the economic numbers war....

America's been killing off far more of its own than if we went into a full blown war with the Chinese. Obama should be charged with Treason over what the murders covered up under the guise of "healthcare".

Originally posted by skeptic1

Plus, if the system is socialized, I think that will cut back on the competition to be the best. I have several chronic illnesses, and I want to go to the best. The best doctor that has worked to prove he is the best. The best hospital that has competed and improved their technology to be the best.

My worry is that if things are socialized and/or standardized, there won't be as much effort put into being the "best" because there won't be any reason to work to get there.

I have many friends who work in the NHS and I can assure you they are the very best at what they do. Unfortunately there is now competition in the NHS and it has brought in some problems, I believe this has to stop as people will be treated as numbers. The NHS is not perfect, but, I love it, and I like many others, would be prepared to burn down Parliament if they decide to privatise it. If I get hit by a car an ambulance will pick me up and take me to casualty, without checking I have the right insurance. I have had two surgeries on the NHS and some scans, and yes I had to wait, the longest was 4 months for an operation, but I wasn't in pain whilst waiting and it wasn't serious, my friend had Liver cancer and was seen by the top specialist in the country, after 4 days of being diagnosed, so the idea that we get seen by under qualified back street surgeons, and have to wait for ever is a myth. Waiting list are high sometimes because of many different factors, one can be the seriousness of your condition, others depend on where you live, this does need looking at, sometimes it is down to who is in power at Number 10, right now we have the Tories who, have no interest in keeping the NHS despite what they say as it is Tory belief that there should be no NHS. Many hospitals are tied into the Universities in the UK, and their research improves technology and understanding of diseases all the time. The Staff of the NHS do a very difficult job, under constant scrutiny by the right wing press and opportunist MPs, and while certain private backers can help with research and such, I believe it should stay public and free on delivery, you guys have the right to bare arms we have the right to socialised health care.:-) You are right though, the government should keep there noses out, the position of Health Minister should be scrapped and replaced by position that can only be filled by a qualified medical professional who knows exactly what the NHS needs, and is voted for by other medical professionals, instead of a cluesless and inept carrer politician like we have now and in the past, who is only trying score cheap political points for their party whilst putting lives and public health at risk

Peace :-)

This is one topic I have discussed at length with my American relatives, and to be honest it seems to me any comparison between what is being implemented in America and elsewhere shares a name only.. Socialised Medicine, which really seems like a semi-private way of leveraging the already squeezed wallets of the average American.

The fundamental question in my head is why the American Government already spend a similar amount (per person) to the NHS in terms on things like Medicare/aid(?) and yet is not achieving anywhere near the economy of scale it could, add that to the existing funding paid in insurance and it seems like you spend at least 2x the amount the UK does, yet can sill only come up with a similar level of healthcare..

And no I am not suggesting the NHS is best, but I do wish it was better and would certainly pay more to make it better..

Back on topic, so baring in mind you already pay more for healthcare than we do while getting a similar level of care it boggles my mind why any American would want to pay more into a systems that seems to me is not giving the American people value for money.

By my reckoning Americans should be the healthiest people on the planet, or at the very least even the poorest American should already have open access to the best treatments..

Since that is not happening, it seems obvious (well that is how it seems to me) that the system is broken, and the recent push for a bigger spend, seems more akin to throwing good money into a back hole, rather than giving the American people deserved value for money for the healthcare they are already paying for.

For what it is worth, while the NHS is born out of a socialist government after WW2, that is NOT it origins, it's origins are with the wealthy and middle classes during the Great Depression, these where the people who dug forever deeper into their pockets to help out the less fortunate and suffering. And from what I have read most of those putting their hands in their pockets where deeply Conservative in their views.. the whole benefits system is born out of their generosity and kindness, not some socialist nightmare.

Originally posted by HillbillyHippie
FIRST, its not American - its European-style.

SECOND, its socialism.

SOCIALISM - the government gives you what IT decides you need whether you like it/want it OR NOT.

Next comes, "preventative healthcare"... The government then forces you to get flu shots even if you don't want them in order to "save money" spent on treatment.

THIRD, the government already gave my daughter (my only child) brain damage (autism) with their vaccines, and I don't want them to get their grubby paws on my nieces and nephews (the last stand of the bloodline).

FOURTH, I don't want them placing me in a home against my will when I am retired.

If you allow the government to "preserve" your life, you allow the government to run your life. I truly wonder if anyone in the UK/Europe understands the stubborn need for individual freedom we Americans have? Is this lack of understanding why they are so hostile towards our policies and have so much misunderstanding concerning our actions?

I want personal responsibility and personal reliability in every area of my life. I want to learn and do everything I possibly can to take care of myself because I DO NOT trust anyone else with my life - because it is MY LIFE!

Socialism is not this great big evil you Americans have been led to believe, there are good and bad parts, just like there are good and bad parts of Capitalism.

Our government does not force us to have Flu Vaccines, it reccomends it for the elderly and children under a certain age, we are not required to have it though. Preventative Healthcare makes sense, if you take steps to look after yourself you free up beds and Staff to look after people who need it.

I feel for you about your daughter, I truly do, my nephew was born with Autism, I know how difficult that can be, (however we get a lot of help from Social Services for the disabled in the UK, It's centred around the individual and focuses on independent living. I gather you would probably have to have some kind of medical insurance for her condition, correct me if I'm wrong). Forgive my ignorance, but I've never heard of Flu vaccines causing such severe side Effects.

People are not placed in Homes against their will in the UK, the legislation for Sectioning the Mentally Ill or placing the elderly in a home is very complicated perhaps too complicated, many things have to be looked at or done before anything like that is considered. Care for the elderly, the disabled and mentally Ill in the UK is run by Local Councils, some do it well, some don't, unfortunately, mine is very good, but the whole idea is based around independent living, where possible. If people have the ability to make choices in their lives then those choices will be respected, we do not round up our elderly like stray dogs and drop them in homes.

Sometimes your stubborn need as you describe it, for individual Freedom, can come across as selfishness, I mean no offence, but it's an attitude that is all 'Me Me Me' 'what about me?', not everybody is like you, and the choice should be there for people aren't. We have the choice to have private care too in the UK, but they will not take high risk cases as they will not take the responsibility, fthey would rather NHS do it. To put your care in the hands of Private medicine, is a bigger risk, I feel than to put it in the hands of Social services or the NHS. Our Social healthcare departments have many strict guidlelines to follow and do so, these are there for public safety, not to control people, as you have been led to believe, unfortunately in my experience the private sector cuts corners to save cost, risking the health and well being of the individual, maybe not so much in medicine, but especially in care for the elderly and disabled, If my mum needed care in the future, I would much rather it come from Social Services than any private care supplier any day. It's fine if you want to be in control of your life, no one is stopping you, the same way no-one stops us :-)