Never Heard of Jesus?

Good Wolf

I mean you don't even need the bible to have a relationship with God, so why would you have needed to know JC?

If you don’t believe in Jesus Christ then again this question doesn’t apply to you, this question is for Christians. If you believe you can have a relationship with god but not the god of the bible then this question doesn’t apply to you

jakyll

You are not damned for rejecting Jesus, you are damned for blaspheming against the Holy Spirit; that is the Unforgivable Sin.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit or rejecting Jesus is the same basic thing

reply to post by andre18


Well I used to be a christian and that was my stance. Even as a christian I didn't believe that Jesus was god, I felt that was something that Catholicism did, and if that's the case then it solves the "knowing Jesus" problem.

reply to post by andre18

The Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit or rejecting Jesus is the same basic thing

Only to some Christians.
There is no concrete evidence in the Bible to say that the Holy Trinity is real.

reply to post by jakyll


That's right, and I used to be one of those kind of christians. Jesus talked about God in third person and to God and second person and God talked about Jesus in third person also. Doesn't sound like one being to me.

Originally posted by jakyll
Only to some Christians.
There is no concrete evidence in the Bible to say that the Holy Trinity is real.

With the splintering of Christianity over the years, anything that can be said of Christians is only really true of some.

And I would posit that there is no 'concrete evidence' anywhere in the bible. Nothing is written in black and white, everything is interpretation. There may be evidence of certain things, but nothing close to concrete.

Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

dr strangecraft, I always thought the book of life was something that was written before time, and it was just a question of whether or not your name was written in the book. What they 'had done' may contribute to whether their name was in the book or not, but that would seem like salvation through works, which I thought most Christians (catholics excluded) disagreed with. But ultimately I thought the book was about 'Is your name on the list' rather than a detailing of your life's works.

In terms of the OP's question, it's certainly one of the bigger flaws of Christianity. You can take it a step further though. Even for those who know about Jesus, and have equal opportunity to consider all religions, there is a problem with the logic.

All religions claim to be the one true religion, all religions require faith because there is no proof of what they claim. A decision made with no proof is a guess, ultimately no different from a random selection.

So if you either get into heaven, or don't, based on a random selection - how is it any different to a lottery? Making tickets to heaven only available through a raffle is fair if there is somehow limited space in heaven I suppose, but otherwise it's just ridiculous.

Originally posted by TheStev

dr strangecraft, I always thought the book of life was something that was written before time, and it was just a question of whether or not your name was written in the book.

That must have been your private inference, rather than anything from the book of revelation says.

What they 'had done' may contribute to whether their name was in the book or not, but that would seem like salvation through works, which I thought most Christians (catholics excluded) disagreed with. But ultimately I thought the book was about 'Is your name on the list' rather than a detailing of your life's works.

The verse I quoted, as I pointed out, is the second judgment, which is for unbelievers. They are judged on works because they have no faith that would mitigate the moral ramifications of what they have done.

In terms of the OP's question, it's certainly one of the bigger flaws of Christianity.

I disagree. the bigger problem for Christianity is that onlookers decide what Christians must believe, based on nothing more than hearsay and their own rationalizations for rejecting Christianity in the first place.

All religions claim to be the one true religion,

Not true. The Greeks didn't believe their religion was utimately true. Plato, writing in Phaedo, and Herodotus in his histories, both begin with a "god" (singular, not plural) who ultimately created reality, and about which nothing was known.

Likewise, Mithraism portrayed the creator god as wearing a cloak with stars on it, to symbolize the god (again singular) who is beyond the physical heavens, and thus beyond the entropy caused by the march of seasons . . . in other words, an unknown, eternal deity.

Same with the Beliefs of the Inka and many tribes in the Amazon basin, as well as the source of tao in Taoism.

Many Hindus acknowledge Atman as the ultimate creator, but do not reverence it personally, only worshiping the lesser manifestations of Atman in the Devas.

So, no, not all religions claim a privileged access to truth. In fact, many teach that truth is ultimately merely one more human illusion.

all religions require faith because there is no proof of what they claim. A decision made with no proof is a guess, ultimately no different from a random selection.

When I proposed to my bride a decade ago, I had no "proof" that she really did love me---only the faith that what we felt for each other was more than the random conglomeration of electrochemicals in our brains. I had no proof when I made one of the ultimate decisions of my life.

But I can assure you it was more than random selection.

So if you either get into heaven, or don't, based on a random selection - how is it any different to a lottery? Making tickets to heaven only available through a raffle is fair if there is somehow limited space in heaven I suppose, but otherwise it's just ridiculous.

No, that's the conclusion you've reached, in what I believe is an attempt to absolve yourself of any responsibility for making ultimate decisions. As I've said three times now, many Christians believe that, absent faith, you will be judged on your works alone.

No lottery about that. Just pure justice.

.

That must have been your private inference, rather than anything from the book of revelation says.

Actually, it's really not:

The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world...
Revelation 17:7-9

The names have been written since the beginning of time.

May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69:27-29

Only the names of the righteous are listed in the book.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:14-15

If your name's not in the book you're screwed.

There you go, very straightforward and quoted from scripture. Any questions?

based on nothing more than hearsay

Bahahahaha. No, my friend, I'm afraid the biggest problem of all is that Christians hold desperately to the belief that anyone who rejects Christianity must not understand it otherwise they wouldn't have rejected it. Pal, I am far from an 'observer', having spent the first 17 years of my life thoroughly engrossed in the Anglican Church. My father was a minister at the time and still works in the church, and all of my family are heavily involved in the church. Before I started questioning the nature of Christianity, I had started down the path towards bible college. So I've got some grounds beyond 'hearsay'.

Frankly, I've lived within perhaps the biggest Christian denomination in Australia, giving me the experience to say what 'most christians' believe, which is what I said.

Not true. The Greeks didn't believe their religion was utimately true...

You know, when I wrote that I thought to myself 'do I need to specify all major modern monotheistic religions' but I thought 'no, we're talking about Christianity and it's similar religions here, people will know what I'm talking about'. I guess not. I'd change it, but frankly I think anyone who's not searching for things to pick apart will know what I meant.

I had no "proof" that she really did love me---only the faith

Perhaps not, but you did have evidence in the way that she treated you and the way she acted towards you. By comparing this to the way that other people treat you, you can gain evidence of the way she feels about you. Some faith is required, but it is not blind faith.

Within the major modern monotheistic religions, absolute blind faith is required. And it's not like you can spend time with each of the different gods and see what they're like to figure out which of them are real - which would be the only valid comparison to your analogy of your proposal to your wife.

When you proposed, you certainly had far more evidence through the many different interactions you had had over your time together. There is no interacting with god, so there is neither proof nor even evidence.

As I've said three times now, many Christians believe that, absent faith, you will be judged on your works alone.

What do those christians say of Ephesians 2:8 & 9:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

And indeed, as others have posted, if one can be saved through good works, why does the religion of Christianity even exist? Surely a rulebook would suffice?

[edit on 10-10-2008 by TheStev]

Originally posted by TheStev
Actually, it's really not:

The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world...
Revelation 17:7-9

The names have been written since the beginning of time.

You're kidding, right? I mean, you did see the word "not" in the verse you just quoted, right???

The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world...
Revelation 17:7-9

This is verse refers to the people who follow the beast. This means that they are not Christians and . . . don't have their names written in the book of life. The whole point of this thread, people who don't believe in Jesus.

May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69:27-29

If their names CAN be blotted out of the book, then it looks like it varies according to how non-believers live their life. Or in other words, they 'll be judged by . . . works.

If your name's not in the book you're screwed.

Unless you're a Christian, in which case the second judgment doesn't apply to you.

There you go, very straightforward and quoted from scripture. Any questions?

Yeah, I've got one, which is, with all your authority as an expert on Christianity, as someone who once studied in seminary, or at least meant to, how you can confuse the first judgment with the second judgment?

What do those christians say of Ephesians 2:8 & 9:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is addressed to, whom? People who have been SAVED BY FAITH. And this whole thread is about people who don't fit in that category, because they are not Christians. So that verse specifically doesn't apply to non-believers.

Non-believers will be judged by their works, since there is no faith to admit them to the first judgment. And as I've already pointed out, the second judgment is a purely works-based judgment.

And indeed, as others have posted, if one can be saved through good works, why does the religion of Christianity even exist? Surely a rulebook would suffice?

I don't think you can be saved by good works. Indeed. One more time: if you don't have faith, you'll be judged according to your works. it is your works (or lack of same) that convict you.



In all honesty, it seems like you've already decided that Christianity is BS and that anyone who subscribes to it is irrational. It seems to me like you've decided that Christians are judgmental and dismissive of people who don't share their faith. Certainly, you can find all sorts of people who call themselves Christians and are total bigots. I can find some strict materialists who are exactly the same. But you wouldn't buy my evidence against materialists any more than I accept yours of what "most Christians" believe or like.

I noticed that you mentioned that there was no proof for anything in the Bible, and that faith in the absence of proof is "just a guess."

I want to make an observation that science is also "just a guess." When a scientist formulates a theorem, it is also "just a guess," ---a guess in accord with what the scientist believes are meaningful facts.

Which is exactly what any religion is---a viewpoint in accord with what the individual believes to be meaningful facts. Yet somehow, secularists view this as a grave logical error. You mentioned that communication with God is impossible. But for millions of people, it's not. So maybe faith is not illogical for them the way it is for your experience.

.

You're kidding, right? I mean, you did see the word "not" in the verse you just quoted, right???

Of course I saw it. My point is that your name either is or isn't in the book. Surely the fact that there are those that are "not" in the book proves that there are those that "are" in the book??????

If their names CAN be blotted out of the book, then it looks like it varies according to how non-believers live their life. Or in other words, they 'll be judged by . . . works.

Firstly, big assumption that because names can be blotted out of the book means that names can be added (which is what you are doing if you are claiming that people can be saved through works). Secondly, there's nothing else to say names can be blotted out from the book in practice, and being in Psalm this may simply be a 'May God curse you' type deal.

how you can confuse the first judgment with the second judgment?

Because, for the third time, the majority of Christians believe that there is no salvation through works, and that the only salvation is through Christ. Forgetting for a moment that there are many who give little consideration to the book of Revelation, the majority believe that the second judgement is for the righteous who lived before Christ. Ie those that are righteous in the eyes of God but did not accept Christ.

Some believe this extends to those who have never heard of Christ and therefore have not actively rejected him, but only a minority believe that anyone who did not believe in Christ gets judged by their deeds. I'm glad you do, it's a much fairer interpretation. But you are in the minority.

I think it's important to clarify the difference between non-believers, or people who have access to Christ and do not believe, and righteous men before the time of Christ. Both of these groups have died not believing in Jesus Christ, but they are judged differently, or at least so say most Christians.

Separately considering those who have not had access to Christ's message, although there is no real direct reference to these people, most Christians go for the safe and comfortable option like they do with unborn babies or young children. They fall back onto the old chestnut of 'God is fair and will judge us all accordingly'.

But non-believers do not, again according to most Christians, get a shot at heaven being judged on their works. Which I think is what you're saying, but now you seem to be leaning back towards the idea of people being condemned by their works rather than saved by them.

Yes, I have decided for the most part that Christianity has become corrupted and therefore large parts of it are BS, but I do think there are some kernels of truth in there, as I believe there are with all religions. In terms of irrationality of believers, again I would say that faith is the opposite of a rational decision.

I'm sorry if I have offended you by calling your faith irrational or a guess or random, but ultimately it is. While I would agree that much of science is also guess-work, and that theory is simply a stronger word for guess, surely you must also agree that there is considerably more evidence for the 'guesses' of science than there is for those of religion? Such is the very nature of faith.

I think we need to also clarify here the difference between proof and evidence. When you break it down, proof is subjective. Proof is simply evidence that is conclusive. But who is to determine what is conclusive. There is no proof for any of the claims of religion, but neither is their really any evidence. That's okay, it doesn't make you a bad person for believing things without evidence - it's just how faith works.

But science does have evidence, even if it does not have complete proof (personally I'm not sure it does for a lot of things claimed as fact, but that's a whole other kettle of fish). That makes science more of an educated guess. Sure, there are still interpretations made of the data, which make science as subjective as religion, but there is some evidence there for many of the claims.

I'm not sure quite your reasoning for bringing science into the mix, but I actually believe science to be the biggest modern religion. People believe anything science tells them, even scientists, as long as it has been studied, documented, published and peer reviewed. And that is a process that history has proven to be flawed.

And that question of interpretation is what my reference to 'no proof of anything in the Bible' comment was about. It wasn't intended as saying 'there's no way of proving the Bible true' it was saying 'there's no way of proving one interpretation of the Bible as true', which is what much of Christian dogma is - interpretation.

When the only real source you have is the same source you are interpreting, there is no way to prove your interpretation - that was my point.

In terms of communication with God? True communication means equal parts give and take. I'm sorry but unless God is replying in your head when you speak to him, then you're not communicating with him, you're broadcasting to him. 'Speaking to us through the bible' is all well and good, but it's not a method of bi-directional communication like it's made out to be. And if he is actually a voice in your head, then congratulations, you've either a closer relationship with God than any Christian I've ever known, or a mental illness. I genuinely hope it is the former.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by TheStev]

[Firstly, big assumption that because names can be blotted out of the book means that names can be added (which is what you are doing if you are claiming that people can be saved through works). Secondly, there's nothing else to say names can be blotted out from the book in practice, and being in Psalm this may simply be a 'May God curse you' type deal.]

I believe those who the Lord says I NEVER KNEW YOU are the ones whos names get blotted out of the book ...this is my own personal opinion anyway because they had to have had their names written in it already to get blotted out .


[but now you seem to be leaning back towards the idea of people being condemned by their works rather than saved by them.]

The bible says if a man judge himself he will not be judged
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

So believers who judge themselves will not have a judgement ...
Only rewards ............(which the reward is to be joint heirs of the kingdom with Christ )
Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.
Some believers works may get burned up but they will still be saved . (Not satisfactory to the Lord because maybe they were done for selfish reasons).
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Evil men get no rewards.
Pro 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil [man]; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.

Faithful believers will not be involved in the second death or the great white throne judgment day ..
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(((((((Notice what kind of people will be a part of the second death ...they are not the faithful of Christ thats for sure )))))))))))))

In fact it says faithful believers will be judges of angels and possibly even judge the ungodly with Christ during the great judgement ...*How can they get judged and judge at the same time ? ...
1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

stev,

I think one difference in our opinions is semantic.

I think, from reading your posts, that to you "saved" = going to heaven, and unsaved = going to hell. Perhaps I am misreading your posts but that seems to be how you are using those terms. Is that right?

When I refer to the ones being saved, I am talking only about those who have faith in Christ; since that is the only kind of "saving" to be had, through faith. I guess you could say that I equate being saved (being a Christian) with being judged under the first judgment. I see the second judgment as reserved for the great bulk of humans who have ever lived. They can expect a fair judgment based on the kind of life they lead. Indeed, Jesus in matthew 5:19 implies that some Jews will go to heaven, and their existence there will be conditioned by the life they lead:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

To recap, I believe that salvation = faith in Christ, and only that (not works). People who are saved are going to be judged in the first judgment, by an altogether different standard. People who were not saved (from the judgment of works), regardless of WHEN they lived, will be judged according to the only fair standard---their behavior.

Now, as to how many Christians would agree with me, I would say many; perhaps not the majority; perhaps not many anglicans. Perhaps we should just leave it as the author of the wikipedia article on Last Judgmentput it:

On what happens after death and before the Last Judgment, there is little agreement among Christian denominations.

And then this:

And if he is actually a voice in your head, then congratulations, you've either a closer relationship with God than any Christian I've ever known, or a mental illness. I genuinely hope it is the former.

But since you don't believe in God, that only leaves the latter possibility. Which pretty much brings us to the end of the coversation.

.

Who ever said I don't believe in God? It's only Christianity that I have problems with, and even then I said there were kernels of truth, so what does that tell you? I honestly do hope you are hearing the voice of God in your head.

I know what you mean about the semantics of 'saved', and do understand your definition, but really if we're saying saved you have to ask 'saved from what?' The answer of course is eternal damnation.

The same semantic argument exists for 'judgement'. To me that means consideration, but I know that many Christians consider 'judgement' as condemnation.

After all, doesn't the bible say the wages of sin is death? Aren't we all sinners? Isn't the death they're referring to eternal death ie hell? Isn't Jesus the only way around that sentence? How could anyone not subscribing to Jesus be judged as worthy of eternal life?

I'm going by what I've learned from my time as a Christian, and I understand if you believe something different to the above, but those were always the laws of dogma as I was taught and most of them are pretty central to the Christian faith. Do you agree with the above statements?

Originally posted by TheStev
After all, doesn't the bible say the wages of sin is death? Aren't we all sinners? Isn't the death they're referring to eternal death ie hell? Isn't Jesus the only way around that sentence? How could anyone not subscribing to Jesus be judged as worthy of eternal life?

I don't believe that death and hell are the same thing. And hell doesn't go on forever---Rev 21 says that there will be an end to both death an hell. As to whether Jesus is the only way, a lot of Christians here in america are struggling with precisely that question. Some denominations here question the idea of prosletizing to Jews, since Paul hints numerous times at the idea of Jews having a pleasant afterlife, apart from Christ. And then there's Jesus own statement: "Salvation is of the jews."

I'm going by what I've learned from my time as a Christian, and I understand if you believe something different to the above, but those were always the laws of dogma as I was taught and most of them are pretty central to the Christian faith. Do you agree with the above statements?

As to whether they are central? Coming from an anti-dogmatic background, I think what you've presented above is extremely Calvinist sounding, at least in terms of being supersessionist. I am familiar with those attitudes, particularly from the more calvinistic american denominations. But large numbers of people try to find a middle way between calvinism and RCC. In America, "liberal" dispensationist theologies are becoming more and more common among "post-denominational" folks.

.

reply to post by andre18


Hello andre18, good to see you. Good topic. You always have the tough questions.

I hope to give you what is the truth, as I know it.

I know I say this in many "Jesus" type forums, but I believe it is very important to understand the full context of something before making a judgment call.

Spirit and Truth
Spirit
SPIR'IT, n.L. spiritus, from spiro, to breathe, to blow. The primary sense is to rush or drive.] 1. Primarily, wind; air in motion; hence, breath. All bodies have spirits and pneumatical parts within them. [This sense is now unusual.]

[color=#336666]True
TRUE, a. 1. Conformable to fact; being in accordance with the actual state of things; as a true relation or narration; a true history. A declaration is true, when it states the facts. In this sense, true is opposed to false.


The name of Jesus

_____Strongs_____

The Self Existent..Saved
H3091 [color=#FF0000]Yhowshuwa` yeh-ho-shoo'-ah or Yhowshua [yeh-ho-shoo'-ah];
from H3068 and H3467; Jehovah-saved, Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish
leader:--Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua; Compare H1954, H3442.


The Self Existent...(Knows not how he came into being, because he forgets all sin) to forget is to forgive. Fore-get Fore-give....same...true.
H3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw'
from H1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--

To Exist True: Verified! All are living...
H1961 hayah haw-yaw a primitive root (compare H1933);to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):--beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

H3467 yasha` yaw-shah'
a primitive root;properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor:--X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victor

• What is less today, was more back then. Forgotten and Forgiven
  
• Society is expanded, ideas intermingled, time gone by and understanding clouded by straying away from what is evident.
• Translations over time to condense the meaning into phonic representations, transfered over cultures and now it's just 4 different letters taking up 5 spots.....Two S's.....like The SS....Jesus...2 vowels and 3 Contsenents
• The names meaning confirms truth of who he is AS SEEN IN THE LIGHT so that I KNOW WHO GOD IS, who bears with me.

I believe God is true, he is existent as that's what his title means. He calls his With us...Emmanuel..."God with us", the man always, from the least to the greatest and right back down. I know this is true, because only truth can be observed and not mysterys.

Because I believe that truth is seen and not fantasized about ,making the living God as a liar, but witnessing the truth of what is and not what isn't.
That life given...is the son of man....the one preparing the place for you, in the next generation. We are gathered one by one. All that his father has given him he has kept, all but one...himself....Jesus did this in righteousness, Judas, did it in greed, but it was the hand that dipped into the dish with his which was his. "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing". This is the only way he is able to testify in truth eternal that doesn't change, because it is seen...Living.

This is where things become hard for Christians, but this is what the gospel is saying and I know it's true because it is seen in the light. verified a miracle of what is to become of our shadows to realize we are the shadows of the next generation, of their days sun going down.. The son of man leads us, with an iron fist, demanding as a king, Feed me, Bath Me, Clothe me, Deny Me... This King is the Child of the next generation and is given the authority to be such, the older always serves the younger. This is fact. Deny the next Generation, not a unconfirmed myth, but the truth and your memory is no more. He gives 1000's and 10's of thousands as the sand of the see. Truth not fiction. Verifiable Life...under the sun.

• He is with us, even till the end of the age.....he is us.
  
  
• Not one came into the world without him....he is us.
  
  
• If you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me.....he is us.
  
  
• I am not a God that is far off, I am right at hand....he is us.
  
  
• Love Existent, with all of your mind, heart, body and soul and serve him only and Love your neighbor as yourself....he is us.

All sins against the Father will be fore-given, all sins against the son will be Fore-given, but the sin against the Holy spirit, will not be forgiven in this life or the next...forever. This is true because, EXISTENT (God's Title) is always giving life...he is the one sowing the seed....The LIVING God makes in his image, being a new generation....Havah....Heaven...to exist.

Important to realize this as "Salvation does not linger"...and is very real...the memory of you.

"The love of many will grow cold"...No new generation.

He forgets sin...man forgets....he gets angry....man gets angry.....man wipes away there childrens tears....god being true is humble. Everyone who hears the gospel and declares to a new generation....is saved. To reject the Holy (inside) spirit, to not give it a home (new generation) is to betray the son of man. He comes with thousands of his saints.

The times and depth has been altered in a very sly way as to keep the message basic, but turn the text against itself. Punctuation divides the word which is spoken, not written as gods words are spirit and from his mouth.
No Tenses....always meaning now being, existent. Living text...

No bible when Jesus preaching this by his mouth to those with ears to hear. No script. Better to enter in to the world with out an arm, then to Loose your soul in genesis.

Outside the body, where most think Jesus is, he is not, nor is he in your upper rooms in your churches, but with us, even till the end of the age.

Please understand these names, I am humbled to understand this, yet stubborn as a mug, because it means....we have to be responsible, knowing that "his reward is with him". When we stop casting our shadow, stop producing, our shadow shrinks....


If you understand his name and what it means, then you will see what is the truth and has been since the beginning.

Peace



[edit on 12-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

[edit on 12-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

[edit on 12-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

Originally posted by andre18


The Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same

I'm an Atheist, yet I still beg to differ here. The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are clearly determined as three separate things. I'm pretty sure The Holy Spirit is the metaphysical representation of Christ and being Christ-like, etc. His presence here on Earth and what not. I don't think can say it's the same, or they wouldn't have separated them so clearly in the Bible.

"In nomine patri et fili et spiritu sancti."

well, whoever does not know about Jesus will be judged according to their "heart" . The point of Jesus was to help those that cannot make it on their own - but for the rest , the Bible says that Jesus will judge the "hearts", attitude. I guess I prefere the easy way

hello

God is in full control

read

Isaiah 65:1 KJV

I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

John 6:44 KJV

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

Any Christian wondering how everyone can hear the gospel should seek God in prayer about it.

I have been through this myself however.

remember

God has sent his messengers countless times in the bible. A good example is to the shepherds.

secondly, we are told that people have entertained angels without knowing

Thirdly, God has the power to speak directly to the dying? He can give them the choice, he can give the message. remember the thief on the cross in his last hours.

lastly is it possible the gospel had reached the whole world previously?

Romans 1:8 KJV

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

If it happened then it can happen now, without the aid of and tv or radios.

God isn't limited to our ways of doing things

All the best

david