Farewell To Israel.

Would the world be a safer place if Israel didn't exist?

Not only does it desire to create a Greater Israel,it also desires the total destruction of Iran.

In the Bible there are 2 descriptions of the extents of Israel;the current are being the smaller of the 2.The map of this state can be found on Israeli coins.Former president Sharon carried several with him at all times,and was reported as showing them to foreign diplomats and politicians on many occasions,and talking of the day that it would be a reality.www.nogw.com...
www.nogw.com...

(Sharon was also quoted as saying,“Arabs may have the oil,but we have the matches.”)


Such action means that the countries within the area of Greater Israel have had to face the possibility of invasion for many years,such tension be seen as a direct contribution to the troubles today.And such statements like the one below show that it was/is much more than a pipe dream.

The Bush administration's first major policy statement on the Middle East was delivered by Secretary of State James Baker on May 22. For the most part, he used standard phrases and recalled traditional American policies. But there was one line at least that was original, even startlingly so. This was Baker's call to Israelis "to lay aside, once and for all, the unrealistic vision of a greater Israel."

Some Israelis responded with alarm at this phrase. Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir called it "useless." So did some Americans; William Safire called it "inflammatory." But they and many others would have been more upset — indeed, they would be flabbergasted — if they knew the effect Baker's statement had on politicians in the Middle East.

www.danielpipes.org...

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday reiterated his position that the vision of Israel holding onto the West Bank and Gaza Strip as part of its sovereign territory was finished."Greater Israel is over. There is no such thing. Anyone who talks that way is deluding themselves," Olmert told the cabinet during its weekly meeting.

He added, though, that this had not always been his stance: "During Camp David I thought that [then prime minister] Ehud Barak's concessions were too much, and I told him as much."I thought that land from the Jordan River through to the sea was all ours, but ultimately, after a long and tortured process, I arrived at the conclusion that we must share with those we live with, if we don't want to be a bi-national state."

www.haaretz.com...

The dates of these 2 quotes are important.The 1st is from 1989,the 2nd 2008.Its clear Israel did not give up on the idea of a 'Greater Israel' in 1989,so there's a little chance that they have done so now.



Before the 1990's,Israels relationship was fairly stable.But from 1992 onwards things changed rapidly.

But it wasn’t Iran that turned the Israeli-Iranian cold war warm – it was Israel. In October 1992, prior to Iran’s material support for Palestinian rejectionists, the Shimon Peres/Yitzhak Rabin government undertook a major campaign to depict Iran and Shi’a Islamic fundamentalism as a global threat.

Even though Iran was weak militarily after the devastating war with Iraq, Rabin told Israel’s Knesset (parliament) in 1993 that Israel’s “struggle against murderous Islamic terror” was “meant to awaken the world which is lying in slumber” of the dangers of Shi’a fundamentalism. “Death is at our doorstep”, Rabin said of Iran – though he only five years earlier dismissed Iran’s rhetoric as inconsequential.

The Israeli reversal on Iran was partially motivated by the fear that its strategic importance would diminish significantly in the post-cold war middle east if the then president (1989-97) Hashemi Rafsanjani’s outreach to the Bush Sr administration was successful. Also, the geopolitical map of the middle east had changed. Israel no longer needed Iran to balance Iraq and the Arabs – rather, Iran was now a potentially powerful regional player who could become a threat. And according to Israel’s military doctrine, potential threats are to be treated as existing threats.

www.opendemocracy.net...

Since the spring of 1992 public opinion in Israel is being prepared for the prospect of a war with Iran, to be fought to bring about Iran's total military and political defeat. In one version, Israel would attack Iran alone, in another it would `persuade' the West to do the job.
The indoctrination campaign to this effect is gaining in intensity. It is accompanied by what could be called semi-official horror scenarios purporting to detail what Iran could do to Israel, the West and the entire world when it acquires nuclear weapons as it is expected to a few years hence.

www.radioislam.org...


Its also a well known fact that Israel has had a large cache of weapons for a long time.

"Israel has `hundreds' of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons,including more than 100 nuclear artillery shells,nuclear land mines in the Golan Heights and hundreds of low-yield neutron warheads."

THE NEW YORK TIMES on Oct. 20, 1991.

From the 1970's onwards they have developed a nuclear program and have used them in threats more than once in recent times.
Fearing territorial defeat during the Yom Kippur War in October 1973,they assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs.

Years later,commenting on the crisis with Iraq in the Israeli newspaper Jerusalem Post,political analyst Yossi Ben-Aharon wrote on 9 February 1998 that "it should be made absolutely clear to the Iraqi dictator from the outset that any attempt against Israel will trigger,at the very least,a devastation of Iraq's western provinces."



Attention!!
I would like to make it clear that i am not anti-semitic and i am not advocating violence against Jews wherever they be in the world.So if you have an urge to make a racist comment fight it or sod off,i don't wnat you posting here.



Right then. So what am i getting at?
Well,the way i see it,the existence of Israel is always going to mean that there will be no peace in the Middle East.

The question is,should the world be plunged into a WW3/Nuclear war just for Israel??


I believe that the simplest solution would be to move the Jews out of Israel and the land be given back to the Arabs/Persians.That way there is no loss of life and nuclear war is not a threat.Not that simple? Not that easy? Why?

If the state of Israel can be formed,then it can be disassembled.


Is it easier/better to move 6 million or so Jews who live there or is it easier/better to have a world war where the death toll will be well into double figures?? And bear in mind that WW2 had a death toll estimated at 72 million.At least 40 million of them civilian.



(apologies if this is in the wrong forum)



[edit on 8-10-2008 by jakyll]

theres one problem with your theory.. the one true Living God of creation promised that land to Israel.. so taking it off them would not be a solution at all.

reply to post by savetimerushonline



Hmmm,save the lives of millions or listen to God Its a tricky one.

Should millions of innocents die for another's belief??

We've made that mistake too many times in the past.

reply to post by savetimerushonline


Or else the One True God is going to cause another great flood? Rain toads, and throw fireballs down upon all us wicked people?

Or else what?

I don't think Israel itself is a problem, nor do I think it needs to disappear. The real problem is all this one true religion talk. This idea drives people to divide and conspire against each other.

Again it is not Israel but just like everywhere, managers are running countries, managers chosen by the puppetmasters.

The puppetmasters even fooled Israel itself by making them a homeground for their actions.

we have nothing to say anymore, every criticism against Israel is antisemitic it seems so I am gonna say nothing about it.

And I am more critical about the people who made it all possible.

I give an applause to the puppetmasters for putting on a show for decades but every show has an end.

What a sad world we live in.
I don't want to see anyone just not exist.
If Israel doesn't exist then its people do not exist.
If Iran doesn't exist then its people do not exist.
All the war, all the bloodshed, all the innocent lives gone for what?
For some greedy power hungry individuals who have no respect for life.
How can one human being have so little respect for another human beings life?
And so history continues to repeat itself...
It's exhausting and so full of anguish and pain

On principal I would say yes. No country should exist at the expense of pushing out the original residents.

But to follow my own logic, then most of North and SOuth America, Australia, New Zealand, and I'm sure parts of Africa, though I don't know their history too well, shoudlnt' exist either.

I would say the world would be a lot safer place if America did not try to redirect events in the Middle East on behalf of Israel.



To the guy saying they are God's people--I have a big problem beleiving the
"One True God" could create all of humanity and claim to love them all equally, yet choose a favorite people among them.

Not to mention, the people we currently call Israelis and Jews are NOT the same people spoken of in the Bible.

reply to post by jakyll

www.gotquestions.org...

Other possible signs would include a rebuilding of a Jewish temple in Jerusalem, increased hostility towards Israel, and advances toward a one-world government. The most prominent sign of the end times, however, is the nation of Israel. In 1948, Israel was recognized as a sovereign state for the first time since 70 A.D. God promised Abraham that his posterity would have Canaan as “an everlasting possession” (Genesis 17:8), and Ezekiel prophesied a physical and spiritual resuscitation of Israel (Ezekiel 37). Having Israel as a nation in its own land is important in light of end-time prophecy, because of Israel’s prominence in eschatology (Daniel 10:14; 11:41; Revelation 11:8).

With these signs in mind, we can be wise and discerning in regards to the expectation of the end times. We should not, however, interpret any of these singular events as a clear indication of the soon arrival of the end times. God has given us enough information that we can be prepared, but not enough information that we can become arrogant.

Above quote from above web page.

I can;t honestly say that I am prepared to judge on this matter beyond the fact that it is truly telling about humans in general.

Think about it.

It's not like there's dotted lines around the world denoting where one place begins and the other ends. We create imaginary lines between us, and then brutalize and kill each other over them. One would think that if a Muslim, a Jew, and a Christian all lived on the same block or in the same building the world would vaporize in a ball of righteous indignation.

We create the hatred, we create the excuse, and then we pretend its a 'reason' to prey upon each other. Sheesh.

Originally posted by asmeone2
On principal I would say yes. No country should exist at the expense of pushing out the original residents.


"One True God" could create all of humanity and claim to love them all equally, yet choose a favorite people among them.

I believed much the same until i had kids, i don't have a favorite child and regardless of the directions in life they choose i will love them no matter what, not always agree with their decisions, but love them.

Its no surprise, and has been known for a long time, that the existence of Israel is the primary (and perhaps single) cause of the perpetual tensions in the Middle East, in the modern political arena. That does not however necessarily mean the removal of the Jewish state would stabilize the region. Loyalists and zealots would still exist, and although they would no longer have an actual country to call home, they would still willingly fight to the death against their Arab opponents.

[edit on 10/8/2008 by prototism]

Folks can laugh at the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but from what I can see, every nation, and every empire that killed his people all through history have suffered greatly. Even when He was angry with their disobedience, and had previously allowed these empires to be the agents of their punishment.

If the prophecies and the promises mean anything, that means that no one, no group, no matter how large, powerful, or determined can reverse the existence of Israel.

The Jews alone are the unchanged culture from the ancient times. They have survived and maintained their identity through the ages. And now some group of Persians who are themselves a backward-assed group of people are going to destroy Israel? Not in this realm.

The mistake Christians have made is thinking that their existence has negated the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not so. Sure, Christ fulfilled the promise of a Messiah, and we are under a new dispensation. But He still considers the Jews His people.

Ezekial 34:13 indicates that after being scattered, they would be brought back together as a nation.

Isaiah 43: 1, 5,6 He speaks of making the gather.

Amos 9:15 They will never again be uprooted

Daniel 12:4 Just before the end, there will be a great increase in knowledge.

Zechariah 12:1-3 Jerusalem will be a heavy stone for all around it, all who
lift it will be severely injured, and all nations of earth will
be gathered against it.

Ezekial Chapter 36, 37,38 all speak of His nations scattered, brought back
together, and bringing the nations against Judah (Israel), and a
great slaughter.

I find it odd that the nations that are to be arrayed against Israel are primarily the former nations of the Persian empire, and Gog, who is not exactly identified, but being from the "north" or the territories of Turkey or even portions of the former Soviet Union.

But at the end of the day according to promise, promise that a mere eighty years ago would seem impossible, we find that Almighty God will be directly involved.

I'm betting on Him.

Originally posted by savetimerushonline
theres one problem with your theory.. the one true Living God of creation promised that land to Israel.. so taking it off them would not be a solution at all.

And I have a hard time believing that this alleged ''one true living god of creation'' made any such promise. I refuse to believe this , despite growing up catholic/christian, and for good reason. After researching many other spiritual ways of life(I am a quasi-anthropologist) and especially the history of the catholic church itself is suspect.

Is it a coincidence that many ''pagan'' cultures around the globe have some staggering similarities?

Christianity is a tool. As is any organized religion.

A portion of truth is that we are all connected. All of us, are united as energy contained within this universe. The people that pull the strings wouldn't make any money if as a species, we all realized this and willfully got the best out of its implications.

Zeitgeist might be propaganda, but despite a few inaccuracies, there are many important points made that we could all take heed of.

There are more intelligent ways to go about it, but it takes everyone. At least 75% and then the change will take place, but at the pace we are going, we may not have enough time.

When will people get it?

reply to post by dooper


I do not wish to debate the Bible, as I am not qualified to do so, but I would like to point out that Israel was formed because the Bible says it is the Jew's Holy Land- so it really is a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Although I have heard that some Jews say they are supposed to wander and not have their own country.)

Again, I am not an expert on the Bible, so I don't know about the truth of that claim.

As for the right to Israel to exist- I don't know, one dominant power took over the land of a less dominant people- much as happened here in the US and everywhere in which imperial forces have expanded their empires.

That being said, I think there would be much more peace if the Palestinians were given the same amount of resources as the Israeli's are.

reply to post by GetOutOfMyRabbitHole


I beleive here in the US there is a very strong movement by the politicians to play upon Christian beleifs with the "Protect Israel" card--just like I beleive some world leaders are intentionally trying to mimic the popular interpretation of Revelations in order to better control the population.

Wouldn't surprise me if that's the whole reason why we helped create Israel in the first place.

Sorry about the double post... fixed now.

[edit on 10/8/2008 by GetOutOfMyRabbitHole]

Israel cannot be given away and nor would anyone try.
It's nothing to do with what is ABOVE the land either.

There is something in that ground that is WORTH more than mutually assured destruction for the landholder. It's not in Jerusalem either.
Draw a line from Jerusalem through Petah Tikva till you are about 35-45 miles off the coast and set your drills low.

Originally posted by jakyll Would the world be a safer place if Israel didn't exist?

I choose to just answer this question and not the whole post (although it was all very well put together and you are clear about your stance... nothing to apologize for).

I think it would, personally. Now, there will no doubt be people who will take my opinion and twist it to mean that I think jews should be wiped off the face of the earth.. I do not. But would I cry if they were? Most likely not as i am convinced the world may actually have a shot at peace with out them.

My stance is this.. If Israel is REALLY backed by "god" as they consistently claim to be, then the power of god must not be great if it needs America to back them as well. If their faith is so strong in god, then let us withdraw our support FINALLY so the power of this supposed god can truly be shown.

Honestly, I am not a fool and am quite surprised at the stupidity displayed around me in continuing to support ppl that have a LONG history of abusing others. They have not always been the victims as they would have the rest of the world believe and have in fact, when given the opportunity, shown that they are just as capable of abusing other people to fulfill their agenda.

I do NOT support their efforts and I DO NOT support our standing by them in whatever new war they choose to embark upon.

[edit on 8-10-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by iiinvision


I beg to differ in that broad statement. Christianity was not founded to be organized on the level we see today. Originally, congregations were to be local, organized locally, administered locally, and owing to no one but Christ.

The need for power in the Church that was in Rome perverted the original way Christianity was to be. Wanting more and more power, we see the abomination of the Catholic Church, and the evils that came from that misapplication.

The Reformation worked for a while, but once again, man screwed that up. So now, you have large organizations, such as the Catholic Church, Southern Baptists, Reformed Lutheran, on and on. Unscriptural and therefore ungodly.

Yes. Organized religion is the bane of humanity. But that is because of man's perversion of the original Church.

reply to post by asmeone2


Exactly my thoughts on this as well. Am glad to see someone else not afraid to call it like it should OBVIOUSLY be called.

It is a well known fact that many christians are easily manipulated... what better way to manipulate than saying the jews need our help.

If the god of the jews exist, would it not stand to reason that he is more than capable of protecting them if their agenda is pure "according to his will"? I just can't buy BS no matter what kind of packaging it comes wrapped in.