you can take anything anyone says or writes and make an open ended statement
that in and of itself justifys what youve said and that is relative

the banks say "well loan you money and then shoot you in the head"
i could play on what people write in here for hours and add new meanings to it and make long winded hyper critical extrapolations with open ended statements that end up with no more information or knowledge than was actually put forth in the first place...other than to just consider a million different scenarios to something as simple as the statement "Have a nice day"
i could take that apart if i wanted and look at it from a million different perspectives... a simple four letter sentence...what purpose would it serve..? ive got things to do...people to meet ....places to go... i could extrapolate on meanings liblam but i consider my time to valuble to waste doing this.
if i smell a rose and take in its beauty
thats good
if i take it apart and think about all the things that went into making it a rose it tends to lose its beauty
if i say i love a woman ...is it relative or does love really exist....or do i just believe it exists...do i love my mother ...?
do you love your mother liblam??
i know you are not scolding me liblam...
i weigh everything you type into your relative screen that shows up on this relative website....but i see a flaw in your reasoning that others or your self may not see
never the less i consider you an online friend
it may just be that everything you consider not to be relative actually is

[Edited on 29-3-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

[Edited on 29-3-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i think your missing my point liblam

i agree with much of what your saying but i do not think you know what a man of super consciousness is??

if you did you would not have said "is this any different than any other form of consciousness"?

Right, but it is just a label. You can call it "hyper-consciousness" or "super-duper funky consciousness" but it still is what it is. We are all at different levels of awareness, and therefore consciousness. We're all consciousness, but some aren't even self-aware or self-conscious like trees, or rocks... which are on the lowest level of consciousness... level of matter.

All I'm saying is... to know what something is doesn't require you to have a name for it (like super-consciousness) etc. And yes, I think you understand what I'm saying (based from the stuff you said below).

subjectivity and relativity no longer exist for the man of super consciouness ....he knows that it is nothing more than the delusion of the phantasmagoric three dimensional universe.

Right and wrong don't exist in an objective sense, period. If this entity chooses to be objective, then yes right and wrong won't exist. It's really that simple, as when you choose to be subjective, you pretend that certain things are universally true, when in reality they are simply your personal judgements which do not exist objectively, until the person makes them.

He is beyond right or wrong ,he is liberated,he is illuminated,he has reached the goal,he is beyond the vibarational realm,he is in the vibrationless realm and he is one
unfortuantely i or you are not there yet

We are where we are! It's not unfortunate, in my view, because we are where we FIT.. where we BELONG. You cannot take a 3rd grader and shove him in 10th grade - he'll fail miserably and be forced to return. We can LEARN the lessons of this realm and then move on, AFTER the lessons have been learned, and not until then.


There are many forms of consciousness
I know
how?
from experience
i could go over the finer points of swimming with the instructor but if i dont jump in and swim what do i really know...Do i know how to swim...no....i could talk endlessly about all the different ways to swim and all the finer points of adjusting the stroke and breathing...but if i dont know how to swim....what do i really know.
i will tell you something liblam that i dont usually tell people...i have touched that vibrationless realm...and i dont mean physically touched.....you would ask how do you know you did?


Well actually I'd ask what is a vibrationless realm, and WHY you think it's vibrationless. Then I'd ask what makes a realm vibrational or not - why is our level vibrational as opposed to the other one? Could it be just higher vibrations, and not a complete LACK of vibrations? And then I'd have to ask, vibrations of WHAT anyway? What medium is vibrating? Reality itself?

I don't expect you to be able to answer those, I'm just stating that this is what I'd ask, and then try to find out if I can..

and i would say .....did you ever just know something for sure? if you told me no....i would say one day you will my friend....

Not "just" know, as I like to know what the source of any knowledge is. There is a difference between KNOWLEDGE and INFORMATION. Just cuz someone tells you something, doesn't make it knowledge.. just makes it information that you can consider until you can ascertain if it's true or not.

All I'd advise is just be careful what you think you KNOW, some stuff can be intentionally-induced illusions by beings from higher levels of awareness.. or just self-created delusions because it makes one feel good to believe something, or otherwise.

For example, religious people think they "JUST KNOW" their religions to be true, because they say they "feel" their God and that this verifies the truth. Now, I can use logical deduction and evidence to the contrary to KNOW that many things in religions are LIES.. the same lies that religious people think they KNOW because they feel their truth from some "God".

They do not like the idea that GOD just means all that exists, that there is NOTHING that isn't God, as he's not some entity - God is just another word for EVERYTHING. Can you sit there and FEEL everything? Well, you can be ONE with everything and be aware of this, but not on our level. Do I KNOW what I just said to be true? Yes, and I don't need to "just know" it, as I logically and analytically understand this... including from experience and evidence of other things being said about what "God" being proven false.

Remember, we only see that which we choose to see. No amount of logic that demonstrates the obvious falsity of someone's beliefs will even scratch the paint if those people do not choose to SEE this truth...

So to wrap this up, I advise caution before you conclude that you really know something... if it's not based on any reasoning or understanding... (this is just in genereral, for anything..). And even if it IS based on same, does this GUARANTEE its truth? Being 99.99% sure does leave that 0.01% chance that you're dead WRONG. I like to work with probabilities, and to avoid anticipation/expectation/assumptions and beliefs.

i agree with you liblam about where were at is where we fit .... i couldnt agree more
somethings cant be explained with words though.
this i know

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
you can take anything anyone says or writes and make an open ended statement
that in and of itself justifys what youve said and that is relative

the banks say "well loan you money and then shoot you in the head"
i could play on what people write in here for hours and add new meanings to it and make long winded hyper critical extrapolations with open ended statements that end up with no more information or knowledge than was actually put forth in the first place...

Or so you think, because you do not care to waste your "precious time" to really think about these concepts, just as you have stated below. I find that I gain HUGE amounts of knowledge when I think about what at first glance is a "common" or "every-day" thing.

Also, I don't "play" on what people here say, as I try to make these people SEE that which is "SADLY" not obvious.

other than to just consider a million different scenarios to something as simple as the statement "Have a nice day"
i could take that apart if i wanted and look at it from a million different perspectives... a simple four letter sentence...what purpose would it serve..? ive got things to do...people to meet ....places to go... i could extrapolate on meanings liblam but i consider my time to valuble to waste doing this.

Your choice. I find absolutely nothing more valuable (imho) than to analyze anything and EVERYTHING that have been programmed into our lives as "second nature" and "obvious". After I do this, little is left that has any substance, makes much objective sense, or is at all logical. This helps me not only understand objective reality better, but also be more aware of the illusion in which most people live.

if i smell a rose and take in its beauty
thats good

That's subjective, as some may HATE the smell and look of a rose. So it's only good for you. Beauty is also subjective, as what you consider beautiful others may consider ugly.

if i take it apart and think about all the things that went into making it a rose it tends to lose its beauty

To you. A biologist may disagree and say that a rose is only beautiful when you really take it apart and examine its cellular structure...

Do you not see the subjectivity of your statement?
I could explain it further if you like.

if i say i love a woman ...is it relative or does love really exist....or do i just believe it exists...do i love my mother ...?
do you love your mother liblam??

Does love exist? You'd have to define what love is first. Before some WORD can exist, it needs to be defined. Love will only exist if the definition of same exists. What many think is love is just hormonal natural reactions to the opposite sex to continue the race and encourage procreation. You cannot say it is more than THAT, simply because you won't tell me that you love a man as much as you love some "woman". If you loved men and women equally in the same SENSE of the word, then perhaps your definition of love is not just hormones and brain chemicals.

For example, your "love" for your mother is pretty much just attachment.. like a habit of biting your nails, or eating chicken. Do you LOVE chicken? Do you LOVE your computer? It's fine if you go into denial when such comparisons are made to your relatives, but is it REALLY different? Sure you may be MORE attached to them than a computer, but how is it any different? The attachment exists to serve YOU. We're self-serving beings, as you already know.

i know you are not scolding me liblam...
i weigh everything you type into your relative screen that shows up on this relative website....but i see a flaw in your reasoning that others or your self may not see
never the less i consider you an online friend
it may just be that everything you consider not to be relative actually is

Please feel free to tell me what this flaw is, and if you don't mind give me details and examples from what I've said that clearly demonstrate this flaw (As I give such things to demonstrate that subjectivity in some of your statements). Just saying that there is a flaw means nothing by itself! I'm not arguing or denying anything, simply because I do not know what it is that you're referring to specifically.

Also, when you say this website is relative, what do you mean? I think you may have some confusion as to the meaning of the word relative...

Relative: Considered in comparison with something else: the relative quiet of the suburbs. .

This website is what it IS. When you say something is evil, or good, this is subjective simply because it is your opinion and does not reflect REALITY AS IT IS. When you say something is evil or good it is RELATIVE simply because your definition of evil or good is limited, in a reality with truly unlimited possibilities. It is like a narrow band of frequencies.. like the light frequencies seen by our eyes are only a small part of what truly exists. So if you say one frequency is high or low, it's only relative and limited... as there may be frequencies a million times higher or lower than that which you consider "high" or "low".

Also, what you consider to be evil (not what IS, as nothing IS until you define it!) can be really angelic in COMPARISON to something else, subjectively/relatively speaking. Do you see what I'm saying?

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i agree with you liblam about where were at is where we fit .... i couldnt agree more
somethings cant be explained with words though.
this i know

Not words, and logic doesn't have to be explained in words! I think our discussion is flying around in circles because we may be saying the same thing, in a different way, making it appear as if it's different. Although there are some things we disagree on, it's no use convincing one another of anything - we learn from each other when we choose to, not when forced to.

However, I totally agree that you can understand things that you simply CANNOT explain to somebody else.. because the understanding is NOT in a language and would take a long time to compile and translate into english. You can KNOW calculus, but to teach it to someone else takes years... that's just one example. And very often, the accumulated knowledge of other things from your life (all possible areas) lead to a certain KNOWING and UNDERSTANDING that is a natural RESULT from those accumulated things... and unless you can show ALL those things to someone else, this one specific understanding will be almost impossible to give them.

For example, my understanding about the nature of God is simply derived from the sum total of all experiences in my life, and all my other knowledge, so in order for me to really portray this specific understanding I'd first have to give you all my other knowledge and explain exactly HOW it connects. Of course this isn't just random knowledge, as much of it is research specifically chosen to help me understand this specific thing, but unless you do a similar amount of WORK (which includes THINKING, RESEARCH, and EXPERIENCES) you will simply NOT understand the things I do, and VICE VERSA.

That is why I find it funny when people say "Give me proof" when this proof will consist of hundreds of different concepts and a web of links among all those concepts that bring them all together in a coherent form, kind of like a bunch of random dots that form one PICTURE when you zoom out. Although sometimes I can do a "decent" job of explaining using a condensed version, although this often leads people into confusion.

The problem is that very often people do not like to do their own work, and like to depend on others for all their knowledge - they wait till someone else drops it on their lap. And if they don't, then they'll DENY everything until someone proves it to them. If you don't do the work to TRY to understand something, then what are the chances that someone can drill it into your head? Slim to none. This is why the work is always done on the self, as you cannot change others, but only yourself. You can HELP others if they ask, but if they don't ask, you'll often end up doing more harm than good (in terms of their development).

I can understand why the government or some ruling group would love to implant everyone with a chip. They could track and control everyone. Chips can be implanted with all kinds of things -maybe viral dna or something sinister that gets activated if you don't do what you are told etc.

The government could keep that part quiet until almost everyone was using it. Then they (government or world dictator, etc.) could say it would have to be activated only with extreme measures against only terrorist targets or against very criminal elements. Sounds like control to me. Worst case scenario, the dna starts mutating and causes global genetic diseases with no cures, just pain and suffering for all those implanted.

i thought this was a prediction thread about the future?! I really couldnt care less about banks, the less said about them the better. I got hung high and dry by that wonderful bank HSBC over a student loan so ive come to the conclusion that is much better to stash your cash under your mattress or floorboards than to rely on horrible corporations such as banks. Banks to me are the clearest indication of how society went wrong

NOW KEEP TO THE F$£KING TOPIC!!!!!!

Originally posted by craigie22
i thought this was a prediction thread about the future?! I really couldnt care less about banks, the less said about them the better. I got hung high and dry by that wonderful bank HSBC over a student loan so ive come to the conclusion that is much better to stash your cash under your mattress or floorboards than to rely on horrible corporations such as banks. Banks to me are the clearest indication of how society went wrong

NOW KEEP TO THE F$£KING TOPIC!!!!!!

You know, some banks sponsor really nice anger management classes... maybe banks are more useful to you than you think?

i will tell you all a true story about a friend of mine named jim...jim decided he would go to college and be a LIBeraL Arts Major....After jim started schooling he decided hed analyze everything that was said to him.
If you said Jim ..."hey Jim whats going on"...He would precede to take that sentence apart for 45 minutes...after this ridiculous escapade if you dare say another five word sentence he would repeat the same process....not only did this serve no purpose other than to create in his mind a feeling of superiority of intellect and to satisfy his ego with a patronizing litany of catch all beleifs in the world of relativity and subjectivity but it led to his social ostracism....god if he only had a computer back in the days of yore...

I personally dont suscribe to the theory of bad , good , evil, non evil ....right , wrong all being subjective or relative...western psychology is a load of hog wash being fed to people to create moral ambiguity.....
oh if a serial killer kills your family its either good or bad depending on your point of view...maybe its bad for all involved.....while there are gray areas in the good and bad arena....just consider the same philosophers and psychologists who with there high intellect who came up with this. maybe the pawns of the global elite and the NWO in our higher schools of learning this thinking is being presented in order to create a state of moral ambiguity so you will be a spineless jelly fish when it comes time to turn you into a robot who wont take any other action than to say ....well dont worry about the resurrected gestapo kicking in your door and making you take a chip in your hand and if you resist putting you into oven to be baked......it all depends on your point of view of good and bad...evil versus non evil.....if you think being put into in oven is good or evil it all depends on your point of view....

People with this point of view maybe should consider a little coginitive restructuring

Revelation chapter 13 makes it clear the "mark of the beast" is something that people will need in order to buy and sell. It will be worldwide. If it comes to the point they do away with cash and everything is electronic, this WILL be the "mark."
Not only that, the chip will have all your information, and can be used as a tracking device. If you do not pledge your allegience to the world dictator (Antichrist) you will be considered an outlaw. At first you'll be homeless & destitute, but God promises to provide for those who trust him (Revelation 12:14 - 16) but after awhile if people refuse the mark they will be executed by the ruling powers of the NWO ~ an evil totalitarian regime.

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
i will tell you all a true story about a friend of mine named jim...jim decided he would go to college and be a LIBeraL Arts Major....After jim started schooling he decided hed analyze everything that was said to him.
If you said Jim ..."hey Jim whats going on"...He would precede to take that sentence apart for 45 minutes...after this ridiculous escapade if you dare say another five word sentence he would repeat the same process....not only did this serve no purpose other than to create in his mind a feeling of superiority of intellect and to satisfy his ego with a patronizing litany of catch all beleifs in the world of relativity and subjectivity but it led to his social ostracism....god if he only had a computer back in the days of yore...

I personally dont suscribe to the theory of bad , good , evil, non evil ....right , wrong all being subjective or relative...western psychology is a load of hog wash being fed to people to create moral ambiguity.....
oh if a serial killer kills your family its either good or bad depending on your point of view...maybe its bad for all involved.....while there are gray areas in the good and bad arena....just consider the same philosophers and psychologists who with there high intellect who came up with this. maybe the pawns of the global elite and the NWO in our higher schools of learning this thinking is being presented in order to create a state of moral ambiguity so you will be a spineless jelly fish when it comes time to turn you into a robot who wont take any other action than to say ....well dont worry about the resurrected gestapo kicking in your door and making you take a chip in your hand and if you resist putting you into oven to be baked......it all depends on your point of view of good and bad...evil versus non evil.....if you think being put into in oven is good or evil it all depends on your point of view....

People with this point of view maybe should consider a little coginitive restructuring

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Is it not their choice and their free will to put anyone they want into an oven? You may not like it, but others may think it's a great idea. Many Germans agreed that putting Jews in ovens was a great idea, and a great thing for everyone! How can you say "good" (or great) and "evil" are not subjective, when such obvious contrasting opinions of them exist? Isn't something only good RELATIVE to something else?

Your friend Jim had an idea that could help him understand many things that many people ignore and take for granted, however if he let his newly-acquired understanding to be used in a manipulative or controlling fashion, that was HIS choice. You cannot blame KNOWLEDGE if someone uses it to harm someone else, or to boast their own ego. He chose to seek knowledge without the work on the self that's needed to overcome certain service-to-self urges (and that was his choice!). Knowledge is power, and power can be used for absolutely any purpose, including helping others advance, or to control others who possess less knowledge, and who are susceptible to your control and manipulation due to your higher awareness/knowledge.

When someone shoots someone, do you blame the gun? If your physical body is all that matters, then feel free to shoot any Gestapo agents that want to implant you with a chip. Defend your physical body at all costs, if such is your will. Personally, I don't much care what happens to my physical body, though I don't exactly ENJOY pain. I simply will not violate others' free will, even if it means physical expiration (death), as it is not so important for me to survive, it is my consciousness and knowledge of reality, which manifests as my level of awareness that matters to me, not the condition of my body.

However, despite the fact that I will not kill anyone, I will not be controlled, only my body can be, with proper technology. So what? It's the same as if the NWO people built robots - our bodies are simply high-tech robots, and can be used and controlled by anyone. They can even kill you and then reanimate your body! What control do you REALLY have of your body? And you are worried about this flimsy, TEMRPORARY piece of learning equipment, when your consciousness is eternal?

Social ostracism may result when someone appears "different", and is a natural result for someone on this planet that seeks to truly understand and learn things, not just follow a social program that's running inside his mind. SOmeone who chooses Service to Others existance will not survive on this STS world for long, and will be seen as crazy and irrational by the STS humans, and we're ALL STS at this time. However, if your current social environment is what is important to you, then by all means comply with social standards and rules, do whatever it takes to remain in this social circle. Truth can wait because it's patient, but your "friends" may not be, and may not like the idea of you "changing". All there is -- is lessons!

Moral ambiguity may be created when one does not subscribe to the socially-programmed "morality" that exists on this planet. Once again, if someone sees this as a bad thing, to question social morality and to CHOOSE to not accept it, then that is their choice, and the judgement is subjective, as usual - it depends on the person does it not?

it may not be that easy enter another body to if you beleive in reincarnation ???? to continue your lessons...

so why waste an incarnation on letting it expire so easily ....why not jump off a building and get it over with so you can be out of it and dont have to bother with taking care of it and you can spend all your time working on expanding your knowledge...whos to say more knowledge isnt availible on the other side than here???
would you let the people you love be slaughtered by serial killers and your self if they showed up at your door??? or would you try to stop them??
as a note lilblam i think we should continue this some where else as it has nothing to do with the original posting....it has more to do with philosphy ...may be we should ask the admins to put a forum up like so....controversies in philosophy
may be more lessons can be learned on the other side ???whos to say

[Edited on 1-4-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

[Edited on 1-4-2004 by watcheroftheskies]