CIT is inconsistent when discussing G loads on AA77

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

Originally posted by beachnut


CIT is revising Boger first testimony from nearly 7 years ago to match their fantasy based on a working copy animation by the NTSB. And a pack of different paths impossible to fly due to bank angles and Gs.

Huh?

Nothing was "revised".

We asked him where he saw the plane fly and he told us.

It just so happens he saw it BANKING on the north side of the gas station just like everyone else.

It's not our fault.

We simply provide the recorded interview so you can hear for yourself what he said.

Have you even listened to it?

I listened, and I agree with Boger, he saw 77 impact the Pentagon. I also see, he supports 77 on the south side of the Annex, you have made a mistake interpreting what he said. It is funny, I have to clean up my key board it is full of coke; I have to replace the keyboard now. Every time I see your interviews I laugh too hard and have to take a break. I have never seen so much work at interviewing people, produce so much fantasy.

Your interpretation of witnesses is like the impossible paths, and 34 Gs, just made up. Sorry, but it too easy to see this. I have investigated accidents and your methods are not correct and you really have to check the paths using math and physics so you will not mess up the interpretations of your witness statements.

Please check your paths before you post them; there must be someone on your team or from the many expert and pilots from pilots for truth who can keep you from making big errors presenting impossible paths.

Oh and here is an image he made for the last radar position from DCA:

Here is the data for the last radar return from AAL77 (?) recorded in the FAA data for the DCA TRACON radar.

13:37:46.564
Dist (nm)
2.19
3557

Azimuth (degrees)
313


DCA Antenna

0
492
43

1.601665
1.493576

-1.60166
1.493576

Lat
38.87005

Long
-77.0674



The Lat and Long are values calculated by me. I’ve spent the entire day going over the math and everything else I can check. Once plotted in Google Earth, the distance and azimuth check out to be an exact match for the estimated position. One possible error source is that I have the wrong antenna, or the antenna has been moved. I’ve done my job the best I can. Some folks will like my results, others will protest (the attached image will speak for itself). All I can say is, it ain’t my data and if you can find me a better position for the radar antenna, then I’ll be happy to use that position as the starting point.

John Farmer

This guy's all over the map!

Funny how you source HIM for information!

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT


You have dozens of different paths.

Paths impossible to fly.

And you quote mine out of context to make up your own fantasy.

You ignore DNA.

You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

You have witnesses you twist to fit your ideas, and the testimony is over 5 years after the event.

Boger is the best, he actually was right next to 77 as it enters, and he sees it. You need to drop his stuff, he alone kills your fantasy. …,mfavvvvvvvvvv

Originally posted by beachnut
. I also see, he supports 77 on the south side of the Annex, you have made a mistake interpreting what he said.

No he doesn't which is why you can not and will not quote him making such a claim.

He said it was "more to the right" of the Navy Annex and banking on the north side of the gas station.



I provide evidence. I provide quotes with sources.

You type long incoherent rambling paragraphs with no quotes, no sources, other than referencing a fake truther who claims that most of the official data has been "doctored" and that the citgo video proves a north side flyover!

Originally posted by beachnut


You ignore DNA.

You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

Ha!

Ridiculous.

You have ZERO proof that ANY of the very few parts that were found came from tail #N644AA nor do you have any proof that the DNA came from the Pentagon.

It's all faith for you.

You ignore evidence and science in favor of pure faith in what you are told by the government or fake truthers like John Farmer!




[edit on 22-9-2008 by Craig Ranke CIT]

This image should break it down more to help people understand.

RO2 has been decoded so we know for sure that 1.5 DME was recorded PROVING the NTSB data did not "stop" at the last lat long point shown.



More on this here:


[edit on 23-9-2008 by Craig Ranke CIT]

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

1.5 DME is what is stored in the FDR. NOT where 77 is. Why?

DME in the FDR is required by FARs to be stored at 1 NM resolution. One mile resolution.

Flight 77 FDR stores DME with 0.25 NM resolution, 1500 feet.

The AIM, you should know about this if you are slinging DME around, tells us the accuracy of DME is better than ½ mile or 3 percent of the distance, which ever is greater.

For 77 DME system accuracy close in, like 1.5 DME, is 0.23 NM.

This means there is over 1800 feet uncertainty in DME! This means the FDR final position confirmed by RADAR, many different stations of RADAR, STANDS!~

This mean your position is wrong, because RADAR shows 77 not there as late as 13:37:47.

This is great, you need to know the limitations of DME.

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
As exponent points out,

There is nothing "impossible" about a north side flight path.

The reason we don't provide "calculations" for this is because it's impossible to determine the necessary values from eyewitness accounts which are subjective.

Exponent's flight path IGNORES Terry Morin's testimony. It ignores even the supposed "updated" interview with him for which there is no evidence or record.

A North of Citgo flight path is indeed impossible within the constraints of transport category aircraft and adhering to ALL of the witnesses testimony.

You keep hiding behind this "we don't know the subjective values" canard, but that's a "Red Herring" because one doesn't need to know all of the values. All we need is a position and the witnesses provide that just fine.

In addition, NONE of the witnesses reported even a 50 degree bank angle.

Also, exponents's diagram includes NO annotation of HOW the aircraft was able to pull up and fly over the building.

If we include the requirement for a pull up to fly over the building we then get into the same regime I have vividly illustrated of EXCESSIVE G approaching or exceeding the stall speed and aircraft design limits.

On the other hand, in contrast with the CARTOON, I have not used deceptive math, nor have I constructed it in such a way to constitute the worse possible case CONTRARY to the way anyone would fly, even a terrorists with little experience in the aircraft type.

You can spin your way through a game of marbles, but you can only fool those ignorant of aerodynamics to prove any of your incredible STUPID and WRONG statements either in support of an NoC Flight Path or in refutation of the flight path which supports the physical evidence.

CIT FAILS AGAIN!

I would imagine at this juncture, both parties involved in this "debate " would willingly chew through their own arm for a copy , any clear copy of the plane striking the pentagon.(or not/ or missile ..... have i left anything out ?:roll_

Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT

Originally posted by beachnut


You ignore DNA.

You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

Ha!

Ridiculous.

You have ZERO proof that ANY of the very few parts that were found came from tail #N644AA nor do you have any proof that the DNA came from the Pentagon.

It's all faith for you.

You ignore evidence and science in favor of pure faith in what you are told by the government or fake truthers like John Farmer!

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Craig Ranke CIT]

Sorry, you are completely wrong. Pilots for truth have the readout proving 77 FDR was found in the Pentagon. They have all 25 complete flying hours of Flight 77, from the FDR. Are the pilots for truth wrong?

So all the aircraft parts are from 77, and you have zero, as in no evidence to refute this single fact. Even Boger saw 77 impact and place all the parts due to a high speed impact, killing the people who boarded 77 that morning, and their DNA decoded proving they were killed at the Pentagon, proving 77 impacted the Pentagon. Sherlock Holmes is not needed for this non-mystery.

You have zero evidence to refute this.

Are you calling the people who recovered the DNA liars? Are you calling the Navy personnel who supervised their killed solders DNA recovery and DNA decoding so they could notify loved ones their lost people were found? Are all these people liars? Are you calling Boger a liar? Calling American airlines liars? Calling the FBI liars? Calling all the firemen liars?

Where does your lack of evidence claims stop?


You call DNA analysis a faith based issue; pure science.
You call physics making up numbers; pure science.
You mangle witness statements and ignore the DNA and all the parts from 77?

You have zero evidence to support your ideas, and zero evidence to refute DNA and 77 impacting the Pentagon. Your 34 G is made up from a fake position I have shown to be over 2000 to 3000 feet off. You make up an altitude at a made up position and come up with a made up 34 Gs based on faulty ideas.

I presented the evidence, you ignore it. I showed the INS position, good to 1500 feet, I have shown that DME uncertainty is over 1800 feet. You ignore facts and specification, SCIENCE, and use quote mined witness statements to make up a fantasy.

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

LOL?

You are funny, he plotted the RADAR data in true instead of MAG.

Lyte, please stop making up stuff. Research this topic more before you show more working copies, old stuff, now updated and corrected.

en.wikipedia.org...

Farmer is like a friend you teach chess to, and you are beat by him forever more. He is tenacious, true truther, who evolves as he learns. He has reasons to be skeptical, but is closing in on the truth as he dismantles your ideas, more each day, one by one. He proposes a thesis, then proves it, or not! His work is eating up your fantasy, to reveal truth. If there is a real truth movement, Farmer is it; I disagree with his initial ideas, but he does real work to reveal real hard evidence.

I may not like his initial ideas, and he may be stubborn to change them, but some of his new conclusions and work dissolve your fantasies.

He is learning flying procedures, navigation techniques, error analysis, accuracy of systems, RADAR quirks, uses physics, see your circular motion 34 G is not smart, understands 77 is 6 seconds away from the Pentagon when the FDR information ends, and much more. He is years ahead of the entire truth movement understanding the skills needed to analysis the data he collects.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by beachnut]


Mod Note: Please use the Reply to button instead of quoting entire posts, and if referring to a part of a post, trim the quote down to the relevant part.

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 9/22/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by UmbraSumus





I would imagine at this juncture, both parties involved in this "debate " would willingly chew through their own arm for a copy , any clear copy of the plane striking the pentagon.(or not/ or missile ..... have i left anything out ?:roll

_

I know 77 hit the Pentagon. I can't find any evidence to refute what I can find independent of the government, proving 77 hit the Pentagon. As an aircraft accident investigator, there are no anomies, no mystery, just dead American killed by terrorist. Some may of missed UBL telling us he would kill us and he waived the restriction to kill kids and women, just for us.

I think it is good to present some tools, or hints of tools like physics, for people to check these false paths out. There is hard evidence of 77 impact at the Pentagon.

The 34 G circular motion is not a good way to make a point, and the initial conditions are not based on facts and evidence.

I doubt a clear video would help stop fantasies ideas. I know I have a heart, I have never seen a video of my heart, but I have evidence. I have seen 77.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by beachnut]

Originally posted by beachnut
You ignore DNA.
You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

Since when has alleged human DNA ever been used to make a positive ID for identifying the alleged airframe of a plane?

Besides the alleged FDR, show me one other part, in and all around the Pentagon, that has been confirmed as belonging to the alleged Flight AA77.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by beachnut
You ignore DNA.
You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

Since when has alleged human DNA ever been used to make a positive ID for identifying the alleged airframe of a plane?

Besides the alleged FDR, show me one other part, in and all around the Pentagon, that has been confirmed as belonging to the alleged Flight AA77.

My bold above... Here ya go....



But, then you want another one, and then another one, and then another. We know your game. It's rather lame and not very convincing of anything other than you are a confirmed Conspiracy Theorists for which there is no evidence which would convince you. No one really cares anyway because you and your kind are disappearing into the annual of history just like all other Conspiracies which have no substance or EVIDENCE.

[edit on 22-9-2008 by Reheat]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by beachnut
You ignore DNA.
You ignore the fact 77 part are in and all around the Pentagon the DNA.

Since when has alleged human DNA ever been used to make a positive ID for identifying the alleged airframe of a plane?

Besides the alleged FDR, show me one other part, in and all around the Pentagon, that has been confirmed as belonging to the alleged Flight AA77.

DNA of the Passengers confirms 77 hit the Pentagon. Simple stuff. Try to think about it logically and see if you can figure it out.

Do you have evidence to refute this?

The DNA was supervised by many people to ensure the bodies and parts of bodies, and bones, and fragments of bones were properly identified. No one can refute this! 7 years and not one piece of evidence to refute the DNA!

77 parts are all over the Pentagon. 7 years and not one piece of evidence to refute this. Zero evidence.

RADAR data has 77 on course to hit Pentagon, and backing up the FDR. 7 years and no evidence to refute this.

Sorry, if you can't find the evidence for these things.

No body can refute any of this with evidence.


The FDR is not alleged, it had 25 hours of 77's flights. Confirmed by a truth group, they did not advertise it, but they know it has all the other flights of 77, 25 hours.

FDR is confirmed! Study it for a few years, each nuance of 77 last flight in there, even decoded by a truth group!

[edit on 22-9-2008 by beachnut]

Originally posted by beachnut
DNA of the Passengers confirms 77 hit the Pentagon. Simple stuff. Try to think about it logically and see if you can figure it out.

Human DNA identifies... humans. How does human DNA identify a mostly metallic airplane?

Think about the logic of what you're typing, beachnut. Maybe you'll figure it out.


Reheat, nice picture. Who took it? Where was it taken? What time was it taken? What part is allegedly in the picture?

Originally posted by tezzajw
Reheat, nice picture. Who took it? Where was it taken? What time was it taken? What part is allegedly in the picture?

As predicted, but with a slightly different "truther" twist.

An NWO photographer took the photo and then posted it on a "truther" site.

It was taken in the Sahara Desert. Didn't you notice the nice green grass!

I don't know exactly the time, but I'll bet it wasn't prior to N 644AA leaving the housing/frame from part of it's emergency lighting system lying on the Pentagon Lawn.

One thing you did forget to mention is that there is no sign of scorch marks or heat/fire damage on that piece of metal with the aircraft serial number on it. Next time don't be so negligent and leave something so important out of your denial.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by beachnut
DNA of the Passengers confirms 77 hit the Pentagon. Simple stuff. Try to think about it logically and see if you can figure it out.

Human DNA identifies... humans. How does human DNA identify a mostly metallic airplane?

It identifies passengers who were on a passenger plane.

Unless you are suggesting that they took the passengers from the plane and strapped them on to the cruise missile before shooting it into the Pentagon?

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
It identifies passengers who were on a passenger plane.

It might, in some circumstances, if there are no suspicions of foul play.

However traces of human DNA only prove that those traces were present where found.

Which alleged plane was the alleged human DNA found to be on?

As I stated earlier, I'v never known organic, human DNA being used to identify an inorganic plane.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
It identifies passengers who were on a passenger plane.

It might, in some circumstances, if there are no suspicions of foul play.

However traces of human DNA only prove that those traces were present where found.

Which alleged plane was the alleged human DNA found to be on?

As I stated earlier, I'v never known organic, human DNA being used to identify an inorganic plane.

It takes the application of logic. Try harder to figure it out, you can expand your evidence base to help confirm the obvious. You can prove 77 impacted using DNA. Try using some Sherlock Holmes stuff.

Did you know you can use 27,320 feet radius for CIT G problem and get 1.6977 Gs to hit the lamppost and impact the Pentagon. Thus the 34 G is not realistic and the video is a parody on how math can be used to support false ideas and mislead people.

1.7 Gs, a value the terrorist achieved, from the CIT video method of circular motion. CIT methods show of calculating G are deceptive unless you understand what they did to mislead people. Can't trust anyone, use your own figures.