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Originally posted by Phatcat
I don't suggest they should have rebuilt the buildings, I suggest they should have gone through the wreckage with a fine comb.
much like an archaelogical site, with a toothbrush if necesary.
firefighters reported 'streams of lava-like substance in the basement.
I do believe it's Thermaid though, which is a form of Thermite, a brand used for Demolition
And I suggest that any sane President, one with nothing to hide, should have been first among equals to demand an investigation, and make sure no stone is left unturned in pursuit of the thruth, not stonewall it for as long as possible..
And the obvious foreknowledge of several partys leading to potentially the biggest heist of insurance money ever.. and several companys are making gazillions because of it, to this day. Companys which so happen had politicians as boardmembers.. how convenient..
Originally posted by Tomis_Nexis
What would make me believe it was as advertised was if more planes struck the towers (since each was designed to take 4-5 hits)
if the towers hadn't fallen into a neat pile without swaying
if the air force actually did something to prevent the planes from hitting
if explosions hadn't gone off prior to the towers collapsing
and finally if Larry A Silverstein hadn't wanted to build two new modern towers to replace the WTC's because the cost of maintenance for the towers would have been equal to that of building two new towers.
Originally posted by irongunner
Please answer the question.
This bit of rambling has nothing to do with 9/11 and evidence provided.
If, this is your answer to "proof," then you are in a round about way admitting to my assertion that you indeed have taken an indefensible position (one that all criticism and evidence against can be cast aside do soley to your opinion on the source and not the content or context.)
Originally posted by JimBeam
reply to post by irongunner
Typical.
Go ahead and skip over the EVIDENCE of Israeli spies in the US prior to 9/11. It's obvious that it's too "complicated" for you to understand.
Originally posted by irongunner
Jim,
If you want to comment on these things by all means find/start a discussion on the Israelis, Saudis, and Halliburton's involvement in jello if you want to, but please stay on topic HERE!
You came to this discussion, you did not start it. We here are not discussing conspiracies, only what level of evidence would cause people to turn away from them.
Originally posted by exponent
So you believe that they should have immediately abandoned all hope of rescuing survivors? Perhaps you should educate yourself as to the attitudes of people immediately following collapse. Most people were convinced there would be "pockets" of survivors and the initial efforts focused on this.
You're probably thinking of 'thermate'. Even so there are many candidates for lava-like materials, including things like glass, which we know was obviously everywhere in the towers.
Not going to disagree with you here, I am no fan of Bush and I suspect he was very much trying to cover his ass.
This is an often repeated topic, but there's never been any solid figures released showing how Silverstein supposedly made this money. What you probably didn't know is that Silverstein was forced to take out a larger insurance amount. He initially wanted to insure the buildings for less. Not only this but he is contractually obligated to rebuild, and rebuilt WTC7 without any major client having signed on.
He may well have made money, but that is just a sign of someone who has taken care over their investments, rather than evidence of a conspiracy, especially when we know he tried to insure them for less.
I appreciate that you are angry, and you want to see people held responsible for this, but it is a very complex subject and the people who are telling you some of these facts are not without an agenda. You should take time to investigate the claims from the 'debunker' side too, you may be surprised at just how much the evidence doesn't stack up
Originally posted by Phatcat
Makes sense for the first days.. maybe even a month if you want to stretch it.. I'm sure an in-depth analysis of the debris in the basement levels would have concluded once and for all wether or not explosives where or where not used.
The fact the majority of it got shipped of to china and the fact there's no oversight as to which levels any 'samples' got taken still are on the table though..
again, an indepth analysis would have cleared this up, as well.. or do you believe when the cleanup crews made it there they still believed survivors where present ?
Not just his ass.. he made very sure that any 'investigation' would basically be group therapy at most, when a crime is committed you need to start investigating asap, not when the evidence has allready been reprocessed into god knows what.
The CIA was 'investigating' well enough suddenly to find a passport allegedly miraculously floating down to set itself perched on some rubble
cars filled with 'evidence'
and the names of the 18 terrorists.. how many of those did turn up alive and unconnected again ?
It wasn't just Silverstein.. remember those put options 'gambling' on a dive in market share for the airline companys that where involved? (with the regulatory commision tasked with finding out these irregularitys happened to be located in Building 7..
And frankly, Silverstein is a rodent.. his tearjerking tales of how he loses money don't exactly fill me with confidence and trust.. he tried to hold up the insurance companys for twice the 'jackpot', claiming two planes = two attacks
With all the money that's involved, I'm sure it's easy to buy 'independant' research.. just look at the mega-millions made by 'war-contractors' like Halliburton, Blackwater e.a, then look at Afghanistan and Iraq, bombed back into the stone age. Qui bono ?
Without 9/11, the Patriot acts would never have had a chance of steamrollering through. Homeland Gestapo.. err.. security would never have been the monolith it was today. And the US of A would still have independant friends.
Originally posted by exponent
Frankly it's always going to be impossible to satisfy everyone, and considering your requirements have changed in the course of two posts it is very hard to expect people on the day to have done anything specific.
I don't understand what you mean by "which levels", and as far as I know only a small amount was shipped to China. You should check out the procedure for filtering and searching through debris at the dumps, it was quite thorough.
I don't see how Bush was responsible for this, if you read the various accounts available, most people were not even aware who was responsible for what.
This was actually found by a passerby and handed to a cop.
Not hugely hard to find when you have peoples names and addresses.
There were 19. None turned up alive, the FBI initially produced incorrect photographs for some of the people which added to confusion, but the reports of hijackers being alive cleared up after the first few months. In fact there are a few articles from the original sources for these claims explaining why they were wrong. Even Saudi Arabia has formally admitted 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi nationals.
How could the people tasked with finding this out be in Building 7? The put options didn't occur until 911 and there could be no investigation started until after Building 7 was destroyed. Even so they were traced to a single investor tip. There were some reports of hard drives being recovered from the WTC7 rubble showing insider trading, but this was never substantiated I believe.
This is called being a smart businessman. I don't see how it qualifies him as a rodent? I imagine in another situation many people would be happy to think of an insurance company being forced to pay out more than the usual. I usually would!
Using this logic, you can deny all evidence that disagrees with you. You don't have any actual evidence that this research was influenced, but by speculating like this it allows you to dismiss it without serious critical thought. Please don't fall into this trap.
Possibly, I obviously don't support any of the rather radical laws Bush has imposed, and indefinite detention without trial is extremely worrying. It might be worthy of pointing out (if I haven't already) that I am not American, in case you think I am sitting by idly.
Anyway this has been a relatively extensive post, and while I understand that perhaps you made a simple mistake by saying "18 hijackers" instead of 19 but it also may indicate a lack of research. I urge you to read non-conspiracy sites too, which may provide a counterpoint you weren't aware of.
Originally posted by Phatcat
I considered your argument for searching for survivors, had to admit it had some merit, and thus re-adjusted my own outlook. Isn't that what discussions are usefull for?
I ment relative depth, to ascertain to some degree what lvl of the buildings it belonged to, sorry for not being very precise, post lenght limitations.
It's useless to debate how much was shipped off, because the trail was so cold by the time an investigation was conducted.. fact remains that some of it did..
Isn't Bush the Commander in Chief, the head of intelligence (now thàt's a hoax..) and basically A Nr.1? You know, that guy in a class room ? If he did not know, he was hopelessly incompetent, and if he did know he's a traitor.
How many Intelligence agencys of friendly countrys had issued some pretty specific warnings?
I mean, you debunkers have to make up your minds.. flames hot enough to melt through steel, but selectively choosing to 'spare' a damning piece of 'evidence' made of paper and plastic? Any bets on the propability odds for that happening in a real world ?
offcourse they had them.. one of them even had his handler as a landlord.. they where just patsys employed and sacrificed.
and yet, they invade Afghanistan and Iraq.. that's some deep logic used mate.
Right, that's what I was referring to, thanks for setting the story straight.
Was the gold story also refuted? just curious.
But trying to financially hit the jackpot over 3000+ corpses? That set of business 'ethics' is what caused America to be in the position it is in now mate..
What would you accept then? A publishment in some scientific journal titled 'How we rigged the most influential investigation Ever, and came away with it' , depicting the crew of scientists all showing a big thumbs up with a cheery smile and champagne?
I'm not an American, either, ain't we the lucky ones? :p
The Pentagon mini-hole and Phantom-Boeing also convinces me.
Originally posted by JimBeam
Few replies because you bring absolutely nothing to the table. My little post probably went right over your head.