Russia kidnaps/frees Georgian soldiers, steals U.S. vehicles

reply to post by Scorched Earth


If we send soliders to train the polish army
while israel supplies them with munitions
then all of a sudden they invade ... ukraine?...

then yes, i think even the thickest moron would conceded that the United States and Israel some how played a part in this sudden, drastic military operation.

You seriously do not believe the US played a bad bad move here in Georgia?

Firstly, we help Mikheil Saakashvili come to power

Washington’s initial response to the disputed November 2 parliamentary election was low-key. Following the vote, the State Department described reports of significant irregularities as an “overstatement.” But by November 21, the US was signaling a shift in its position, declaring that it was “deeply disappointed” with the conduct of the election.

This was a green light for the opposition forces to go on the offensive. During the weekend of November 22-23, Colin Powell had two telephone conversations with Shevardnadze in which he all but ordered the president to resign. Once Saakashvili and company had seized power, Washington wasted no time in welcoming the new regime, declaring its support, and warning the Russians against any attempt to intervene.

Bush administration officials have not bothered to conceal their delight over the outcome in Georgia. Said one American diplomat: “This is a textbook case of how to do things right.”

then we welcome the new leader with open arms

Mr. President, welcome. We followed the revolution that took place in your country very closely. We appreciate your firm commitment to democracy and freedom. We've had a very interesting discussion. I know firsthand that the President will do everything he can to earn the confidence of the people of Georgia by representing their will, by fighting corruption, by working for a system based upon integrity and decency and human rights.

Underlining mine, I just wanted to point out typical US propaganda
'' We followed the revolution '' is whitehouse speak for
'' we didnt like the outcome, so we changed it ''

What chavez said, is actually true

Chavez accused Washington of sparking the conflict, saying Georgia's troops were armed and trained by the United States. He did not elaborate, but added that Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili is "nothing but a puppet of the U.S. empire."

So, we use the Israeli's to supply and train

Russia's Deputy Chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn accused Israel Tuesday of arming the Georgian military with mines, explosive charges, mine-clearing equipment and eight kinds of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).

According to one of the Israeli combat trainers, an officer in an "elite" Israel army unit, Hirsch and colleagues would sometimes personally supervise the training of Georgian forces which included "house-to-house fighting." The training was carried out through several "private" companies with close links to the Israeli military.

Former Israel internal security minister Roni Milo was one of the people who pushed those deals along. He "conducted business in Georgia for Elbit Systems," according to Ynetnews. "And with his help Israel's defense industries managed to sell to Georgia [drones], automatic turrets for armored vehicles, antiaircraft systems, communication systems, shells and rockets."

Moscow reminded the Israeli government that it had refrained from selling certain kinds of weapons to states that could threaten Israel. Russia said it had every right to expect Jerusalem to reciprocate the goodwill.

Georgia has become a real goldmine for Israeli arms dealers, who will suffer because of the embargo.

Tbilisi had placed orders with several Israeli military manufacturers. Among the weaponry ordered were 70 million rifle cartridges, Merkava tanks, APCs, helicopters, UAVs, fire control systems and night-vision devices

Last week a former IDF general admitted that his private security firm had been advising the Georgian military

With all these nice Israeli toys, where does America come into it ?

One of the U.S. military trainers put it to me a bit more bluntly. “We’re giving them the knife,” he said. “Will they use it?”

The war on terror?
the perfect excuse

Improving the Georgian military will ultimately aid the American war on global terrorism, the Georgia Train and Equip Program commander said today in a 30 May telephone interview.

U.S. Army Lt. Col. Robert Waltemeyer spoke to Pentagon reporters from the Georgian capital of Tbilisi. He said 70 American service members, most of them noncommissioned officers, are in the former Soviet republic on a 21-month mission.

"We are here to help the Georgian armed forces improve their ability...

Here we are training the Georgian Army, WEEKS before they invaded South Osetta

Spc. Joseph Noble of the Georgia Army National Guard takes part in field training alongside Republic of Georgia soldiers during Immediate Response 08 at Vaziani Military Base, Georgia, in July. The training wrapped up Thursday.

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) - President Mikhail Saakashvili praised a joint military training program involving more than 1,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers at a former Soviet base Monday, amid heightened tensions with Moscow.

Marine Capt. James Haunty, 30, of Columbus, Ohio, commander of Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines, said Friday that he was keeping an eye on the simmering conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Everyone is saying RUSSIA entered Georgia first,
But thats incorrect.

Georgia began artillery strikes and skirmishes with south osettans, before russians even entered georgia

The 2008 South Ossetia war formally began on August 7, 2008 with a military attack by Georgia into South Ossetia, one of two provinces which had declared independence sixteen years previously in 1992, although neither province's sovereignty had been recognized internationally.[18] Russian armed forces quickly responded with a large scale counter-attack into South Ossetia, advancing to a significant extent into Georgia proper. A preliminary cease-fire was arranged by the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, on August 12, and signed by Georgia and Russia on August 15, 2008.

Late on August 1, 2008, intense fighting began between Georgian troops and the forces of South Ossetia. Georgia claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire. South Ossetia denied provoking the conflict.[52] On August 3, South Ossetians started to evacuate into Russia and on August 5, Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warned that Russia would intervene if conflict erupted.[53][54] On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to ceasefire.[55][56] Despite the declared ceasefire, fighting intensified.[57][58] Hours after the declaration of the ceasefire, in a televised address, Mikheil Saakashvili vowed to restore Tbilisi's control over what he called the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and reinforce order.[58]

During the night and early morning, Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of separatist Republic of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.[59] The heavy shelling, which included Georgian rockets being fired into South Ossetia[60] left parts of the capital city in ruins,

"Tskhinvali is being shot at by mortar and heavy weapons from the Georgian villages of Nikozi and Ergneti and some houses are burning," Ria-Novosti news agency quoted an official speaking for Ossetia's ministry of emergency situations as saying

Does anyone not find it suspicous that days before this war broke out, a mysterious fire shut down the pipeline?

Botas, the state-owned operator of Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline's Turkish segment, suspended oil flows through the BTC pipeline after a fire erupted at one of the pipe gate valves near Yurtbashi village and Refahiye town in the eastern Erzincan province of Turkey. The explosion, which took place during the night of August 5, has burned 12,000 barrels of crude oil and led to a fire reaching 50 metres in height.

dont be fooled, what happened in Georgia was a planned assault.
Georgia threw the first punch, and knew full Russia would retaliate like it did.

Me?

I think we needed a reason to turn Georgia into a military zone, bring in Nato and peacekeepers.

Look at the map



I think we're closing a potential supply route from Russia to Iran, by enforcing Georgia with Nato, peace keepers and US Supplies... Russia, through South Osetta across lower georgia into Armenia and into Iran, becomes a lot more difficult.

Plus ,it means we can place missiles in Georgia.







www.bicusa.org...

www.muslimuzbekistan.com...

www.israelnationalnews.com...://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-israel-trai.html

en.wikipedia.org...

www.whitehouse.gov...

news.sbs.com.au...

reply to post by bios


Fair call,
I never said America was involved in the fighting, they simply instigated it.
Supply arms and training Georgians, then letting them loose is bad enough.

We even have the Georgian leader on record, saying he was in contact with Cheney through the entire event.

Americans are getting smarter,
Its like Iraq at the moment.

Why send your trained marines into fight for you,.. you can simple supply and train the natives, and turn them into cannon fodder.

We wanted to make Georgia a military zone, to limit Russia's input into Iran.
The same way we are training a military sized Iraqi police force, to fight Iran for us.

[edit on 19-8-2008 by Agit8dChop]

I dont believe Russia needs that land route necessarily when they have a direct Sea route to Iran. It helps of course. Going by sea thought is cheaper and quicker in this case I believe, and probably safer.

I think anyone who is not in denail understands Georgia was wrong in what they did.

But the confiscation of American Humvees does not have much strategic value, hence why I say it is merely Spoils of war for the Russians. They will probably be given to top ranking military commanders and diplomats hehe.

True, but the Caspian's a major oil basin, i imagine in any war with Iran the US would first secure its oil resources around Iran, war ships, allies war ships.. something...

plus our blockade would serve to limit any sea transports heading into Iran, I cant imagine this will be limited to the Gulf waters.

As for spoils of war?...

not much spoils.. the hummers have been shown as weak and vulnerable in Iraq.. Id say its more a symbolic 'f'u

hehe I agree.. i can see them holding a drunken party sloshed on vodka riding these things into the walls... rolling them.. shooting at them...

maybe provide some intel on the 'real' sensitivities of them to Iraqi's / Iranians?

were they full of the regular communications gear or anything?

Those details have not been disclosed as of yet, but I doubt there was anything of too much value there, generally speaking. I suppose it is a loss for us Taxpayers, but we shuold not have been instigating and planning a slaughter of civilians anyways.

I didn't read anything about the Humvees being in American hands when they were commandeered.

From how it reads, it appears as though those Humvees were given to the Georgian troops to help them fight the Russians.

Basically, it doesn't look like those Humvees had anything to do with training exercises, and everything to do with arming the Georgian troops.

If there were US servicemen taken hostage with those Humvees, you'd be hearing ALLOT more about it.

So, aid my rear end! They are arming the Georgians.

Not to mention backing a regime (Georgia) which intentionally shelled a city (Tshkinvali).
I don't care who you are, you start shelling civilians, you deserved to have your rear end handed to you by anyone willing to do it.

Frankly I don't understand why the russians would want them, our own military is catching hell keeping them running. Where would the russians find parts for a vehicle that GM is considering stopping production of. The axles on these things have been a problem since day one and that 6.3 liter diesel should have been scrapped in testing. And the opinions of folks i know who have used both, the ak47 is a better weapon than the m16.

Originally posted by USMC-oorah
I think that Russia is just trying to cause problems to instigate a war with the United States. It's pretty much how it's supposed to happen anyways. The all peverbial United States vs. Russia. It's only a matter of time before something huge happens and were thrusted into a big ol' happy fun time. I really don't know why people are so scared of the war anyways. Humanity needs a big ol' wake up call and that's what war tends to do! It's unavoidable! CANNOT BE PREVENTED!

And if those were my military vehicles, there would be plenty of dead Russians. Seriously Russia thinks they are the stuff right now. I will make Spetznas clean up my spent shells, which launched the bullets to kill their buddies. Sick of it! Just let it happen already!

lol umm ok so your wishing a war ? be very careful what you wish for ....
war with russia would be a humanitarian disaster and peoples way of life would be seriously affected in a negative way, seriously just think about what your wishin gon the world..too much negative thinking tbh brings things like this , shape up..

Lol Grand Theft Auto is all i can think of lol.

reply to post by Iblis


the source is msnbc and you dont suspect the use of propaganda whatsoever?

Originally posted by Mindsmog

Originally posted by USMC-oorah
I think that Russia is just trying to cause problems to instigate a war with the United States. It's pretty much how it's supposed to happen anyways. The all peverbial United States vs. Russia. It's only a matter of time before something huge happens and were thrusted into a big ol' happy fun time. I really don't know why people are so scared of the war anyways. Humanity needs a big ol' wake up call and that's what war tends to do! It's unavoidable! CANNOT BE PREVENTED!

And if those were my military vehicles, there would be plenty of dead Russians. Seriously Russia thinks they are the stuff right now. I will make Spetznas clean up my spent shells, which launched the bullets to kill their buddies. Sick of it! Just let it happen already!

lol umm ok so your wishing a war ? be very careful what you wish for ....
war with russia would be a humanitarian disaster and peoples way of life would be seriously affected in a negative way, seriously just think about what your wishin gon the world..too much negative thinking tbh brings things like this , shape up..

I'm not wishing for a war at all. I'm just accepting whats GOING to happen and wanting it to get over with already. I don't recall even using the word 'wish' in that whole paragraph. Optimism has just plain ran out for mankind. Were passed the due date for another global slaughter. As sad,scrary,horrible,chaotic,frustrating,stupid,idiotic, and pointless as it is. It's just how things are, unfortunatly.

On the bright side we might have cool inventions after this world war. Like that thing on star trek that just makes you any food that you want in seconds.

reply to post by Scorched Earth

Ever happen to think the American soldiers were dishing out food or medical aid?

Unconstitutional as it is, but unless you have proof Americans actually fired shots in that little conflict, you are making yourself look like a fool by assuming.

and do you REALLY think that if conflict breaks out any where near a US base, that the US had NO PLAY in it what so ever?

:shk:

Tsk Tsk. Seems the MSM is more potent that i thought

I think those Georgian soldiers are damn lucky the Russian army did not decide to send them to a work camp.As for the Humvees well, since we sent advisors over there it's the price we pay for setting up a puppet government over there.

[edit on 21-8-2008 by mike dangerously]

As I understand it the National Guard Unit that owns these Hummers were in Georgia to help train a Georgian unit for its upcoming deployment to Iraq. Not providing any assistance to Georgia's conflict with its separatist elements.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
But weeks before Georiga attacked south Ossetta, America had troops on the ground training the army, while Israel was arming them.


sounds to me like we were involved!

The US was conducting an exercise with the Georgians in the beginning of Aug. They left prior to the fighting.

And they were training them in counter terrorist and internal security, not to deal with the Russian Army steamrolling into their country.

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
and do you REALLY think that if conflict breaks out any where near a US base, that the US had NO PLAY in it what so ever?

What US base is in Georgia?

(OK, no one from the Peanut Gallery say, "Fort Benning"!)

That's the most G thing that's happened in military history in a long time.

"Hey you. Come with us. We want those things."
"Okay."
"Where's the keys?"
"Here, I have them right here."
"Okay, you can leave."

We shouldn't have United States Humvees in Georgia anyway. Last time I checked Georgia wasn't the UNITED STATES.

[edit on 21-8-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
We shouldn't have United States Humvees in Georgia anyway. Last time I checked Georgia wasn't the UNITED STATES.

US troops were in Georgia doing an exercise with Georgian troops. What were they suppose to do; walk?

reply to post by jerico65


I don't know, did they walk out?

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
We shouldn't have United States Humvees in Georgia anyway. Last time I checked Georgia wasn't the UNITED STATES.

US troops were in Georgia doing an exercise with Georgian troops. What were they suppose to do; walk?

Um, it wasn't the US troops caught using them, it was the Georgians.

Do your instructors typically give you free Humvees? Cause ours don't.