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Faith is a gamble.

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posted on Aug, 14 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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This isn't intended to be a thread mocking belief, faith, or religion in general. I really do just find this subject matter interesting. I've come to the conclusion that in a religion where belief is rewarded, and non-belief punished, belief - or faith - is a gamble. I'm going to use Christianity as an example because it's the most commonly discussed here on ATS, but keep in mind this can be applied to any religion with a Heaven or Hell where faith is the key to "getting in."

Faith, in the Christian sense, relies in a way on the absence of knowledge. I've heard many a Christian tell me, and I at one time believed that believing is more important than knowing. That is, when presented with knowledge contrary to what you believe, or when faced with a lack of evidence to back up what you believe, it's OK to say that Christianity and other such religions require a "leap of faith." People tell me all the time that to believe in God is a "choice." See, this presents a problem when you have multiple other religions that require the same thing, because you could very well make the wrong "choice." And in a mindset where concrete knowledge doesn't matter and it all relies on faith, who could really blame you for making the wrong "choice?" Moreso, what kind of all powerful, all knowing, all loving God could allow you to suffer for this "choice" of yours? Do you really just have to be lucky enough to have chosen the right God?

Bottom line: If you believe in a God that rewards faith, how do you feel about the fact that had you been born in another country, you may have "chosen" to follow the wrong God, and thus not wound up in the kingdom of heaven, or worse yet, wound up in Hell? And I'm not talking about people who have never heard of God, I'm talking about people who grew up in an environment where they worshiped a different God, so they chose that God over your God. For example: a Muslim that chose to follow Allah, even after knowing the ins and outs of Christianity. He was raised a Muslim, he's a great person, and he feels that his faith will be rewarded. Is he going to wind up in Hell because he doesn't believe that Jesus is lord? If belief really is about a "choice," isn't it pretty comparable to a gamble in that you have to choose which God you're going to have faith in?


Note to mods: I was told there is already a thread titled "belief is a gamble." If there's a thread just like this that's already been created, I apologize. I tried to search for it, but the search function wasn't working.




posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by Herman
[more

Hello Herman

to me as a Christian it is not a lack of knowledge, its very ahrd to describe. "faith" as a word can be a little misleading

I know God exists, my experiences and other things leads me to know this. However my faith is this.

I Believe the Lord God will do what he promises he will.

david



posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 04:30 AM
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Respectfully speaking of course...

what do you say to those who say I know Allah exists, or a pagan deity?

-Kyo



posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 04:42 AM
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i know they exists

they are the fallen angels posing as dieties



posted on Aug, 15 2008 @ 05:39 AM
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I suppose these opinions will always differ

-Kyo



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 07:21 AM
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Ok atleast this guy is sincere in his post which i can tell be reading it, thank you for that! For goodness sakes, that's a miracle in itself.

Now i am an example. I never grew up Christian, catholic, religious. I used to think communion was a potatoe chip and would make fun of it if we were taken to church, I didn't know who Jesus was.

But then things started happening and I started to read about jesus, and seriosuly I was in a bad ass state back then, thoughts of suicide and depression so I didn't intend on looking for God.

the way I found out about God and the church was unreal, and couldn't be done out of chance. I was a ruthless kid, went to 4 different alternative schools, dropped out at 9th grade, didn't have any religion in my life.


But like i said things changed and God lead me to himself, i could of went into any religion but God taught me about christ and his miracles and I found out that he is proclaimed to be God in the flesh and I believe in it.


then it went deeper and I started to read about the saints and miracles and eucharistic miracles and their life stories. Now my faith has grown even more.


But seriously, many conversions I believe will happen, in fact saints prophecied that in the end times many a number that cannot be counted of souls will convert in these times, so god can lead anybody anywhere if he can do itto me, he can do it to any soul alive.



God bless you.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by drevill
I know God exists, my experiences and other things leads me to know this. However my faith is this.


No, see, there is a difference between thinking you know and actually knowing something.

You are suffering from a delusion, thinking you know is still a belief and is no different from me thinking I’m Superman. Unless you can back up your claims of knowledge with falsifiable evidence, it’s nothing more than an unjustified belief.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 08:28 AM
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Yea but atheist don't know if evolution is 100% fact and God is 100% false.

so you have to stay open minded to God like we have to to evolution. but when you start saying stuff like.

" fairytale nonsense "

this is what seperates sincere souls with ones who made their mind up and this is where the agenda comes in. how can you be sincere when a faith you don't know is false is nonsense fairy tale.

you said. I am staying open minded. Then you should of said.

" I believe it to be fairytale nonsense but don't know for sure.

but you said, which the reader can tell.

" fairytale nonsense "

which cancels out your sincerity. Since you said that (fairytale nonsense) with 100% garuntee then you are saying something which you believe to be true which means you are delusional? no?


peace.



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Yea but atheist don't know if evolution is 100% fact and God is 100% false.


There is no such thing as 100% proof. A scientific Theory is as close to truth or as close to 100% proof us humans can get. It is the highest form of proof available in science.

If you want true absolute proof you have to enter into the realm of mathematics.


Originally posted by JesusisTruth
so you have to stay open minded to God like we have to to evolution. but when you start saying stuff like.

" fairytale nonsense "

this is what seperates sincere souls with ones who made their mind up and this is where the agenda comes in. how can you be sincere when a faith you don't know is false is nonsense fairy tale.

you said. I am staying open minded. Then you should of said.

" I believe it to be fairytale nonsense but don't know for sure.

but you said, which the reader can tell.

" fairytale nonsense "

which cancels out your sincerity. Since you said that (fairytale nonsense) with 100% garuntee then you are saying something which you believe to be true which means you are delusional? no?


Ok, I’ll concede this point to you in all fairness.

I should perhaps word my self so that this becomes apparent. When I say fairytale nonsense I don’t make the claim that this is absolute truth. But it holds true, in any meaningful sense of the word true, to me until I am proven wrong.

In much the same way if someone comes to me saying Pink Invisible Elephants are the true rulers of this universe I’m not going to reply “In my honest opinion, I believe you are wrong.” I’ll cry out “Bollocks!” because the notion is so absurd that it does not deserve additional attention.

Likewise if someone where to ask me “When does the Sun rise here in this country?” I could reply “I believe it is going to rise at roughly 07:00 AM, however, quite honestly I don’t know for sure and I could be wrong as perhaps the Sun has stopped moving? Or maybe it has been stolen by intergalactic Sun thieves? Who knows?”. Kind of futile and tedious, wouldn’t you say?



posted on Sep, 5 2008 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by SilentGem
 


NO

you think, i think i know,

I know!

When you live under a mask of worldly deceit it is you that has, hook line and sinker, fallen for it.

your own perception of truth is your own arguments downfall. Atheism is perpetuated by the faith that is humanism, and the root of which is luciferian. look into it. Even if you are unaware of it yourself, the whole world is run by those that believe in something. It always has. Denial of God has been propagated to the masses for the purpose of denying hope to those that once belived. With the truth of the Lord knocked out of the world you can then rely on the leaders, who, when you take a big step back, are manipulating you. They qare doing this under your nose.

God is freedom, atheism is entrapment. You are deluding yourself thinking otherwise.

David



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 12:03 AM
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you think, i think i know,

I know!

Ok, I'll give you that, but what about the Muslim that 'knows' Allah is God or the Atheist that 'knows' there is no God. You may have personally settled the argument from your own perspective, but if Atheists and followers of other religions are going to Hell and you're going to Heaven, it ultimately boils back down to the argument that people are judged based on their belief.



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 07:14 AM
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i would say to a muslim

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers. S. 10:94-95

O believers, believe in God … and the scriptures which He revealed before. Whoso disbelieves in god and His angels and His Scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he surely has gone astray into far error.
Surah No. 4 An-Nisa:13)

And we sent following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and we gave to him the Gospel (Injil) which contains guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition for the pious. Surah No. 5 Al-Ma'Idah:4

No man can change the words of God. Surah No. 6 Al-An'am:3

When the angels said, O Mary, surely God gives you good news of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, eminent in the world and in the hereafter and one who is near God.
Surah No.3 Ali'Imran:40

david



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by Rock Lobster
 


to an athiest i would say what i say here on this thread

Atheism

Atheism has been a fallacy made up by the occult

david



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by drevill

NO

you think, i think i know,

I know!



I also think you think you know; in your opinion, what is the difference between knowing and believing?



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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One is faced with a huge number of possible candidates for belief. To which religion should one pin one's faith? To which should one commit one's life here and now, and perhaps in the hereafter? Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, or Taoism, perhaps?

Nor should one ignore less well-established religion, such as Baha'i, Theosophy, Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, or the Church of Latter-day Saints. Or newer, first-generation religions such as the Unification Church, Krishna Consciousness, the Church of Scientology, the Divine Light Mission, the Urantia Foundation, and the Rajneesh Foundation. Well over 500 cults are presently active in North America alone. Why should not the truth lie with one or other of them?

www.godchecker.com...

H. L. Mencken's essay "Memorial Service" lists 138 gods, each of whom was "of the highest standing and dignity ... worshipped and believed in by millions." All, he points out, "were theoretically omnipotent, omniscient, and immortal. And all are dead."

www.bizbag.com...



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by Herman
 
Lemme ask you a Q:

What degree of "faith" do you personally use to believe in the Sun?



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by SilentGem

Originally posted by drevill
I know God exists, my experiences and other things leads me to know this. However my faith is this.


No, see, there is a difference between thinking you know and actually knowing something.

You are suffering from a delusion, thinking you know is still a belief and is no different from me thinking I’m Superman. Unless you can back up your claims of knowledge with falsifiable evidence, it’s nothing more than an unjustified belief.


LOL!

Jesus promised to transform my life if I only believe on Him.

My life is indeed permanently changed. Before Jesus I tried as hard as I possibly could to do this myself, and while there was change by my own doing, it never lasted. My own will to change was just putting Band-Aid fix after Band-Aid fix on my life.

Not a single person among the 7 billion on the face of the Earth can attest to whether or not Jesus has revealed Himself to me in my heart...

Except ME.



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 12:43 PM
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ahh but Jesus is alive. Praise God for that. All the other false worship systems have a dead deity

david



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Zedda Piras
 


experiences affirm my knowing. i couldn't tell you about going over Niagara falls in a wooden barrell but i know it can be done.

I know that there are those that have left the Christian faith. However you generally find it is because it is the individual that cannot find what they want by following Christ.

I know that there are other religions but many of them (not all) have an incomplete reverence to Jesus in one way or another.

Many come to Christ, as i did, as an agnostic and even athiest.

people say that religion controls and i agree with that, but Christ sets us free from all that rubbish. Im not Christian because i want to be saved. I'ts because i want to be with him for eternity, in his presence and to honour him and love him forever and right now on earth. To be with God my maker who through his grace has called me to Christ and to repentance and I praise him for it.

How can i ignore my maker when his presence in my life is so real?

david





david



posted on Sep, 7 2008 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by Herman
 


I was just watching a You Tube video yesterday about this. It concerned knowledge and its relation to faith. It is possible for someone to believe something on faith alone but faith and knowledge are not mutually exclusive. This cannot be stressed enough. I'm not exactly sure what happened in Christianity to have turned it into what it is today but only a century ago they stressed the importance of knowledge. I will try to find the video because it delves into older books where the authors implore the believer to combine their faith and knowledge and to have faith due to their knowledge.

It is not not not blind faith. Sadly, so many believe this is so.



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