Record Deficits: Tax the Rich!

The next budget deficit (as per Fox Radio News): $482 billion!!! (short another 80 billion for the war effort) Perhaps the new president can begin paying this back by taxing the upper 1% who have taken advantage of more than $20 trillion dollars in tax decreases since 1977 (and even more decreases under Bush & co.) and continue to grow richer day by day, while the middle class and the poor get massive inflation, job losses, reductions in social services, and decreasing spending power... After all it's the rich who benifit the most; just as it is with most wars, it's a war faught primarily for wealthy interests and the actual fighting is done by the lower class.

It's time we the people unite and demand more from these oportunistic military-corporatists from both parties!

[edit on 29-7-2008 by skyshow]

It always makes people feel better to punish the rich, but ultimately, its counterproductive. Economics is a lot like physics. For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction. If you raise taxes on the rich, thereby cutting into their profits, they will seek methods of recouping those profits. How will they do it? They'll either raise prices on the products they sell you or they'll reduce employment and expect fewer employees to do the same amount of work.

In the end, it'll just make matters worse.

Originally posted by vor78
It always makes people feel better to punish the rich, but ultimately, its counterproductive. Economics is a lot like physics. For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction. If you raise taxes on the rich, thereby cutting into their profits, they will seek methods of recouping those profits. How will they do it? They'll either raise prices on the products they sell you or they'll reduce employment and expect fewer employees to do the same amount of work.

In the end, it'll just make matters worse.

Who says we can't employ ourselves instead of working bagging chinese crap at walmart? They can't raise prices because we can't afford it. Economics is not alot like physics. Not in the real world anyway. Screw the rich.

Originally posted by vor78
It always makes people feel better to punish the rich, but ultimately, its counterproductive. Economics is a lot like physics. For every action, there is an equal, but opposite reaction. If you raise taxes on the rich, thereby cutting into their profits, they will seek methods of recouping those profits. How will they do it? They'll either raise prices on the products they sell you or they'll reduce employment and expect fewer employees to do the same amount of work.

In the end, it'll just make matters worse.

I dislike this kind of frame. It's a talking point. What the Wealthy are participating willingly is socialist capitalism. The Corporate Welfare checks that they get need to be eliminated immediately. There needs to be a hammer that comes down. And for Americans not to understand that, is dangerous to my future in this country. Accountability must come into effect soon or we will face a total collapse eventually. I am guessing you aren't part of that 1 percent of the extravagantly wealthy. The Milton Friedman # is a failure because predators and molesters of the economy will always be lurking in the background ready to pounce. That's why you have to have regulations.
And Im sorry if that doesn't fit the free market cult beliefs, but we live in a world of rotten corruption at unprecedented levels at our country of waste and abuse.

That's why you have to have accountability. Plain and Simple

reply to post by stikkinikki


It won't make any difference. If you are self-employed, you still have to make money and most likely, you're going to be buying your material inputs from a large company somewhere in the supply chain. They'll be passing those higher prices onto you and as a result, you'll be passing those higher costs onto your customers. Believe me, I know. I've owned a small business. We were forced out due to rising material input prices, but taxes would've had the same effect. We would've had to raise prices to compensate had taxes gone up.

This is why I'm saying the old 'equal but opposite reaction' thing is true. There is no easy solution. You'd probably have to tear the entire economic system apart and go back to a barter economy to have anything resembling economic equality.

reply to post by MRGERBIK


Its not a talking point. Its Economics 101. Economic changes do not happen in a vacuum and will have a ripple effect throughout the economy. Some of the side effects will be good, some will be bad. As long as the changes are not drastic in nature, in the end, it will basically end in a wash and will stabilize in a similar situation that existed before. This is why nothing really changes, regardless of which party or ideology is in charge.

EDIT: The real problem in this case is actually the near-monopolization of certain industries by a select few. Taxation is NOT the solution. If you want to 'solve' this problem through governmental regulation, the way to do this is to bust up these entities into smaller, independent companies that must compete against one another and prevent them from coalescing back into large conglomerates once again.

Through taxation, you're basically just tinkering with the free market and that will not work. It will re-adjust. By permanently breaking up these large, international corporations and limiting the financial interest that citizens may have in them, you would be making a fundamental change to the way the market itself operates, and this certainly would have an effect. But, again, understand: this is not merely tinkering with a free market, this is introducing a socialist reform which dramatically alters the way the underlying economy works.

[edit on 29-7-2008 by vor78]

Originally posted by skyshow After all it's the rich who benefit the most; just as it is with most wars, it's a war fought primarily for wealthy interests and the actual fighting is done by the lower class.

Well here's an idea..

Instead of enlisting(be it with the noblest of intentions even) tell them to go blow it out their botties.

I swear I would never consider it unless the King and his nobles were leading the charge from horseback.. lead by example you know..

"Once more unto the breach dear friends"

"A sword in the hand is worth two up the Jacksy".

This 1% now owns nearly 50% of the wealth in this country, and as I stated rather clearly has enjoyed tax decreases with every president since the 1970's. Their tax savings vis a vis pay offs and legal bribes net them more than $20 trillion in savings.

Folks, the 1% had their tax rates cut so drastically under Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II that the amount they saved would more than pay off the debt and go farther even towards programs like assistance to the poor and health care for the now something around 50 million American citizens who don't have health care coverage.

I wish I had the figures on the amount of lubricant this all took. In other words how much did this 1% spend towards P.R. and Advertising (propaganda) and legal bribes to make this multi trillion dollar tax savings a reality.

You guys should be really ticked about this. They move their investments off shore and farm out your jobs to other nations, while cutting your pensions and retirement, then push for these wars to line their pockets even further while our men and women die for their cause and inocent citizens die in droves. You aught to be ticked off that they deregulate everything in site while lieing to us and then we end up time and time again paying the price (banking & investment, electricity, oil, broke air lines competing with subsidized foreign carriers etc...). since the mid seventies they have fevorishly been working to destroy any New Deal programs put into place to aid the poor while squandering the peace divendend (what?) at the end of the cold war and increasing military spending to obsene rates.

Lower taxes on everyone including the rich! This increases revenue to the government everytime it is tried.

Want to reduce the deficit? Freeze every government funded program, no automatic increases in spending every year. Make these agencies undergo an independent audit, wait for the results, and make the appropriate cuts.

What is the best way to restrict activity? Raise taxes on it. Why restrict people who make money from making money? Why restrict the people that make jobs from making jobs?

The government spends too much money, all they have to do is restrain themselves and we will be OK.

Originally posted by RRconservative
Lower taxes on everyone including the rich! This increases revenue to the government everytime it is tried.

Want to reduce the deficit? Freeze every government funded program, no automatic increases in spending every year. Make these agencies undergo an independent audit, wait for the results, and make the appropriate cuts.

What is the best way to restrict activity? Raise taxes on it. Why restrict people who make money from making money? Why restrict the people that make jobs from making jobs?

The government spends too much money, all they have to do is restrain themselves and we will be OK.

Lets also cut the military industrial complex also. Dont forget about them. Otherwise your right on. Eliminate the income tax period. Its slavery. But eliminate the empire over seas and the police and nanny state here at home.

BUT none of the above will be done and we have the bills and because the top 1% benefits the most they need to be whacked. 60% on anyone who makes over Xmillion dollars.

reply to post by RRconservative


Howcome in 1993 the wallstreet journal reported that the tax increases by Clinton had spurred runaway growth in the economy and that the fed needed to increase the prime rate then? That administration (while still being complicit in tax decreases by extreme wealthy ) then left dubya with record surplusses, and now where are we?

I'm willing to bet that nobody on ATS is in the upper 1%, yet so many defend the benifits that they get, while the rest of us pay for it...why is this so? We've been beaten over the head with "trickle down" mantra since the cows left, and so much so that when faced with evidence that is clearly contrary to that theorie's efficacy, still support it? Perhaps there is no hope?

Now we read that the Bush people have been lying yet again...some things never change...and that this years fed. budget will actually be $307 billion larger making our total debt around 9 and a half trillion dollars...

Here's the article (note, it's not from a "liberal" web site):

www.infowars.com...

I can't believe this isn't a more active thread. Here we are virtually all of us not in the upper 1% who continue to get massive tax breaks (more than 22 trillion since the late 70's) and guess who is going to pay for it? If this isn't a conspiracy I don't know what the hell is!

Problem is that this has been a massive propaganda piece for decades about how taxes are bad, and taxing the rich is bad, and so nobody wants to move past the denial and confront the cognitive dissonance and admit we fell for it!!!

Obama is already talking about increasing taxes on the rich...also restoring taxes on the oil companies that have been making obscene profits and giving $1,000.00 back to the people to help them pay for this madness...McCain and the Gas, Oil, and Petrolium (G.O.P.) party are for reductions further on taxes of the rich. How can you stand this? We are the people, not these guys!

Please star and flag this...we need to be talking about the things that really matter...Now I see I should have titled the thread something a bit more catchy...like "should we elect another crook who will continue to mismanage and rob us blind?" I bet there would be 10,000 views by now, but I didn't...I put it out the way it is.

[edit on 1-8-2008 by skyshow]

reply to post by skyshow

This 1% now owns nearly 50% of the wealth in this country, and as I stated rather clearly has enjoyed tax decreases with every president since the 1970's. Their tax savings vis a vis pay offs and legal bribes net them more than $20 trillion in savings.

I'm not real sure where you're getting this info. But www.faculty.fairfield.edu shows that the top 1% of families account for less than 40% of all weath in the USA. Compared to www.ntu.org... they also pay almost 40% of all taxes collected.

From the same sources,. the top 10% wealthiest families account for 71% and pay 71%.

Folks, the 1% had their tax rates cut so drastically under Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II that the amount they saved would more than pay off the debt and go farther even towards programs like assistance to the poor and health care for the now something around 50 million American citizens who don't have health care coverage.

I do remember them having their rates cut under Reagan, and I remember the economy booming under Reagan. I don't specifically recall a tax cut under Clinton, but Bill did balance the budget before he left office.

I wish I had the figures on the amount of lubricant this all took. In other words how much did this 1% spend towards P.R. and Advertising (propaganda) and legal bribes to make this multi trillion dollar tax savings a reality.

I wish I had your sources. Care to share?

You guys should be really ticked about this. They move their investments off shore and farm out your jobs to other nations

Yep, and if your city started taxing your home so much you couldn't pay it, you'd move too. That's what we down South call a 'DUH'...

while cutting your pensions and retirement

Maybe they have to use the money to pay higher taxes?

then push for these wars to line their pockets even further while our men and women die for their cause and inocent citizens die in droves.

Can I get a definition of 'they'? I know Haliburton apparently got involved in this, but who else are you talking about?

You aught to be ticked off that they deregulate everything in site while lieing to us and then we end up time and time again paying the price (banking & investment, electricity, oil, broke air lines competing with subsidized foreign carriers etc...).

Oh, I am! I'll agree with you here. But what does that have to do withtaxing the rich?

since the mid seventies they have fevorishly been working to destroy any New Deal programs put into place to aid the poor while squandering the peace divendend (what?) at the end of the cold war and increasing military spending to obsene rates.

OK, this is a little much to sort out. Clinton didn't increase the military; he cut it to balance the budget. I haven't heard of any New Deal programs being cut; we have unemployment, social security, SSI, welfare, food stamps, WIC, NO INCOME TAXES on the poorest (they can actually get money back in addition to everything they paid in, EIC, ACTC, etc.), and Lord knows how many other aid programs are in existence. None have been cut that I have heard of; they seem to be spending more every year on them.

TheRedneck

Edited to fix link


[edit on 1-8-2008 by TheRedneck]

reply to post by TheRedneck

I'm not real sure where you're getting this info. But www.faculty.fairfield.edu shows that the top 1% of families account for less than 40%

Yes that is correct! It matches with my sources also. This means that the top 1% has nearly half of all the wealth...the rest is devided amonst the other 99%. And it's been getting worse as time goes by.

As I stated, Carter, Reagan, Bush (dady, son of Prescott who was Hitler's banker), Clinton, Bush II (son of Bush et. al.), all have given massive tax breaks to the rich...this isn't so much a partison issue as it is populist. It's the elites vs. the rest of us... That's how I'm viewing it anyway; how else can it be viewed? It's been like this since the days of the colonies!

Anyway, thanks for the post...I've got a tall cold one and a date wating for me out on the front porche! Have a great weekent, and again thanks for posting, but I would appreciate a flag!

reply to post by skyshow
Well, enjoy the drink and the date. When you get back, give me some more precise data and we can discuss that flag.

I don't see where taxing the 'rich' is going to get us anywhere, but without them. As you mentioned, they are already moving jobs to where they can get cheaper tax rates (and labor costs). So, it makes no sense to me to charge them more to stay here if they're already leaving and we don't want them to...

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

I don't see where taxing the 'rich' is going to get us anywhere, but without them. As you mentioned, they are already moving jobs to where they can get cheaper tax rates (and labor costs). So, it makes no sense to me to charge them more to stay here if they're already leaving and we don't want them to...

Well, we used to tax them. They still were "rich". They used to pay for the privelage of being rich on the backs of the working class here in America, but long about the mid 70's they started (mind you we are talking about the upper elite 1%...we could be talking about the upper 20%, but actually we are talking about just the upper 1%) giving them huge tax breaks to the tune of over 20 trillion dollars from then till now...all the while the unions were being broken out (while large union busting consulting firms with lawyers and fat cigar smoking, brandy and scotch drinking fat cats taking the big bucks! refrence: "Confesions of a Union Buster" by Martin Jay Levitt Crown Publishers Inc.). When the elitist corporate bunch realised all the busting that could be done was done, they decided something had to be done. Thus reductions on tarriffs, and NAFTA, and so they moved the production and heavy work off shore, and all the while your lovely Republican and Democratic administrations gave huge tax breaks to the wealthy elite, while they shafted the [rednecks too] working class. Now here we are, circa 2008, we have nearly a 10 trillion dollar deficit...a crooked administration beyond all belief...the constitution in chambles...a crooked war that is going on 6 years now "mission accomplished" oh, that was when? America is serving each other hamburgers now, we don't make anthing anymore. Gas is over $4.00 a gallon, they deregulated the banking industry and as if BCCI back in the 80's wasn't enough (a quick brouse in the research will show the Bushes were envolved in that back then too) we now have a huge multi billion dollar housing crisis and failing banks...I could go on and on...

Why do you continue to defend these crooks? Honestly. Why? What in the hell do they do for you to make you so hell bent on your redneck ideology that says "I have to be a republican"? I'm not being snotty about this...I honestly would like to know how you truley feel, and try to understand how it is that you feel you are getting the good end of the stick by these guys? Please tell me how?

The rich have already moved their moneys off shore, that is a fact. It' is also a fact the largest wealth transfer ever in the history of thw world is taking place right now as Americans send their money (as per gas prices) to the mid east. What is left is paying for cheep plastic goods manufactured in China and sold at Wal Mart. The Corporatists sold us out more than 30 years ago, and now the bill collector is finally showing up. So, please, Mr. Redneck, tell us why it is you continue to believe in these guys?

I say "don't let the door hit you where the good lord split ya' " and say the hell with them! Kick there dirty arses out! America can do better, and we started with nothing once, so we can do it again! We don't need free loader swine that suck off the teets of the working class. We have had enough. It's time we the people stand up and say "enough is enough already!"

If we are going to tax the rich even more., why not go the whole way and have a revolution.

I mean, lets do this with style like our founding fathers.


Lets tar and feather the bastards.

reply to post by '___'eed


how am I to believe you would take up arms when you don't even star me and flag this biot....ooooh...that's going to get me snagged by the mod's...

I hear ya'. I still think there is a shred of hope, but there is a ton of work to do, perhaps more now than ever in American history, and it's always bee pretty bad, but not this bad.

reply to post by skyshow
Yeah, we used to have higher taxes. I know, because I was paying them. Back in the 80s my taxes were a lot higher and I got precious little back at the end of the year. Oh, and by the way, I wasn't rich. I was making maybe $20K.

Your sentiments are not uncommon; I hear them all the time. "Tax the rich!" Sure, sounds great until you realize that we do need the rich. When you go looking for a job, do you go to some bum on the street, or to some guy in a suit sitting in a lush office? the bum doesn't have enough money for himself, much less you. The dude in the office has money to hire you.

Now if you want to make the point that there are abuses of the system, hey, I'll agree with you there. You mention the constitutional problems we are having. I can't argue with that one bit. But that doesn't mean the rich are somehow evil and need to be punished. I just don't see the connection.

I am also having a problem with "just kick them out". Taxcing the richest 1% more would only accomplish one of two things, assuming they stuck around for it. It would either punish them for something, or it would provide more money for the government. In the former, would you sticjk around while you were being singled out and ounished? Neither will they. They'll juust move their money around somewhere else and all the jobs that go with it. In the latter, the same thing will happen. Either way, you're wanting to get rid of jobs and raise prices on the working class.

Those links I gave you showed that the richest people are indeed paying their fair share. I suggest if you're jealous, then become one; start a business and make it big. If you're wanting more social programs, move to a state or country where there are more of them. If you just hate them for being successful... well, maybe anger management?

The company I work for was started many years ago by a fellow named Johnny Bryan Hunt, who had one old tractor and a trailer. He gave great service and soon could get more trucks and trailers. Now J. B. Hunt is one of the largest carriers in the USA. Because he worked long and hard, I have a sweet job today, and I do not have to9 go through the same long hours he did. The man died wealthy and powerful, and that doesn't bother me one bit; I think he deserved it.

You'll find if you look that most of the large companies (even WalMart, although they seem to have lost their moral compass) were started that way.

TheRedneck

Redneck. The way I see it we have 2 options and 2 options only. We can get rid of the illegal income taxes period. Or we can tax the wealthy more. Heres what it comes down to. It looks like the government refuses to curb its spending. Well we have to get this money from somewhere. So do you tax the middle class? What money do we have its all being eaten up because of inflation. So where is this money coming from that we are to be taxed. The only people that have the money are the rich. When Im talking rich Im not talking people making 100k or 150k a year Im talking the people that make over 1 million a year.

Those are our options curb spending and get rid of the slave tax or tax the wealthy. Sucks but until people rise up these are our choices.