The Death Penalty

I do see what you are saying. Unfortunatly that utopia will not be, I wish it could be. We have to deal with a real situation and it HAS been proven that capital punishment works as a deterent.

Originally posted by intrepid
I do see what you are saying. Unfortunatly that utopia will not be, I wish it could be. We have to deal with a real situation and it HAS been proven that capital punishment works as a deterent.

Well, as a "deterrent" we could also propose prolonged and extremely painful torturing of murderers, that wouldn't kill them...would you approve of this?

I wouldn't, but I have yet to talk to someone that lost a family member to a murderer that did that to their son, daughter, wife etc. Ask them and see.

Well, as a "deterrent" we could also propose prolonged and extremely painful torturing of murderers, that wouldn't kill them...would you approve of this?

If it would stop the killing of ONE innocent child.......yes I would. The problem here is everyone is only concered with the killer and not the victom.

To be honest I could not care less about the scum that kills for fun, and are a lot more concerened with the next victom

If life without parole really meant life without parole and they were segerated from other less violent prisnors then I would go along with it.

If you think the death penelty is harsh for murder how about being killed or gang-raped for stealing someones car-radio? It happens everyday because these animals are in Gen-Pop.

Originally posted by intrepid
I do see what you are saying. Unfortunatly that utopia will not be, I wish it could be. We have to deal with a real situation and it HAS been proven that capital punishment works as a deterent.

If capital punishment was the answer, then why isn't it working. Why didn't it work in acient Greece, or in the Middle Ages, or even now at any location within the world?? You could be right, and I may be way off here. I'm just looking at a few thousand years of recorded histroy where various methods of capital punishment and similar methods have been tried, yet here we are still. Maybe I just need more patience and it will finally work next month or next year. Who knows, I can't see the future.

This is something I've researched and thought about time and time again. So far there are no simple full proof answers I've found. What I have found to be infoulable in it's design and logic is what I've mentioned. It is definately not the most simple of possible choices, as it takes an honest commitment of individuals of their own free will to each be devoted to it. However, it's the easiest choice in the fact that commitment to it requires nothing from those who commit, just be peaceful, nothing else.

Trying to Battle against everything in an attempt to remove everything but what your goal actually is, seems much more likely to fail too. If the goal is Life, then you should Live. If you spend all your time trying to Kill Death to be left with life, all your effort has been paid in the opposite direction of your actual goal. You will never hit your target unless you face that direction and head toward it.

Capital punishment in the past has been more motivated by politics than with justice. In the Dark Ages it was about supressing thought. Look at the Salem witch trials, it was about the removal of more popular people.

Yes, it is about life. Remove the people that would bring death. Remove the people that are KILLING life. So if you want to work towards life remove those that oppose it.

Sure the death penalty works. First it needs a name change to the death solution,not the death penalty. Its not a penalty to put someone to death but a solution.
In all studies ever done by anybody there are absolutely zero repeat offenders once the death solution has been applied.
Its like weeds in the garden,you dont transplant weeds to another section of the garden and hope they stop being weeds before you reintroduce them to rest of the plantlife.

The Death Penalty is excellent! but why? Well if a man murdered you would you want him playing basketball in jail and eating and drinking while you are in the ground decomposing. No you would this murder subject thrown in the sun. Before we kill though we should perform tests that is the right thing to do. You could test many products on these doomed prisioners. I will not allow anyone I love to be murdered. If you want to be a hippy and not want to test products on animals fine but seriously we should go for an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.

Originally posted by Amuk
To be honest I could not care less about the scum that kills for fun, and are a lot more concerened with the next victom

If life without parole really meant life without parole and they were segerated from other less violent prisnors then I would go along with it.

I am not concerned about the criminal's well being...but they have the right to live, even if they did murder, in my opinion, it was wrong for them to make the decision to take a life, as is to take theirs. And, I do see what you are saying about these guys being thrown in with other criminals who haven't commited murder...but I think this is changing, they try to keep most people who commit violent crimes together, as opposed to theives or people caught with drugs, etc...still, if this would make you "all for it", then maybe the only problem is reforms in the prison system..

Originally posted by Zuzubar
The Death Penalty is excellent! but why? Well if a man murdered you would you want him playing basketball in jail and eating and drinking while you are in the ground decomposing. No you would this murder subject thrown in the sun.

Actually, I would hope that through my death, the person responsible would go to jail, but instead of playing basketball and watching tv, I would want him to have someone who cared about people, help him learn the reason why life is precious. I would want him to spend his time in jail studying, working and facing his demons, so that he could become an example to others who might be following the same destructive path that he once did. In a time when nobody thinks before they act, let alone knows WHY they act the way they do, executing those we deem not worthy of life is nothing more than an attempt to dispose of the parts within our society that we don't care about enough to help, or are embarrassed about. People are afraid that if they take the time and look too closely at those they condemn to die, they might recognize something of themselves in the worthless damned. That would make it infinitely more difficult to carry out the socially expected capital punishment.
We've repaid tit for tat for the whole of our existance, and yet we seem to be repeating the same mistakes over and over. We are obviously not learning anything through this practice, other than better ways to end someone's life. Isn't it time to try a different strategy, like meeting evil with good, instead of seeking an eye for an eye?

If you want to be a hippy and not want to test products on animals fine but seriously we should go for an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.

If you consider it a bad thing to believe that all life is part of something greater, and deserves to be treated with respect and care, then count me as one of the bad guys!
BTW, since eye for an eye is a Biblical reference here's another one for you:

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Good post jezebel! And, thanks for the lines from the bible...I don't think the death penalty can be justified at all using abstract lines from the old testament, the message of the bible is clear that it is wrong to murder.

Christ also said "Do unto others as you would you would have them do unto you." So if you extend that, if you kill, shouldn't you also expect to be killed?

I have been locked up with these people and they dont think like we do. Do you honestly think that you can rehilbilate someone that kills for fun? They are not gonna spend there life thinking how sorry they are for what they did they dont give a # about the person they killed or their families grief. These are people that torture small animals as a child and moved up to people because the screams and begging for their life is more fun.

They will not feel any sorrow for what they did and no amount of "theropy" will change that

Originally posted by intrepid
Christ also said "Do unto others as you would you would have them do unto you." So if you extend that, if you kill, shouldn't you also expect to be killed?

lol...no. This is just saying treat people the way you WANT to be treated, not, if someone does this then do it back...

My point was that you can use scripture to say just about anything. It is the interpative nature of the bible.

Originally posted by SkipShipman
I continue with the argument that the death penalty weakens the State, and is the downfall of authentic government. Have a good look at your prison system, and the nature and attributes of punishments. They have all come home to roost on the people, who have to face more vicious criminals who have been hardened by the system. Rehabilitation is the solution, not some vicious self gratification in the twisted logic of punishment, which in the secret confines of prison is no deterrent. Public punishments are banned, because no public and no informed electorate would tolerate it.

The death penalty is as obsolete as the entire idea of retribution and blood feuds. Maybe capital punishment should only be reserved for those who torture people under color of authority and punish people for their own sick gratification. But even that idea should melt away eventually, once the cycle of punishment and retribution yields to the sublime depth of real civilization.

[Edited on 13-3-2004 by SkipShipman]

Umm, i don't really know what to say to this other than:

1.How can you equate two unrelated aspects of criminal justice, ie Dead murderers and 'regular' criminals, dead folk dont reoffend.

2.Prison does not tend to rehabilitate i agree, that is not to say it shouldnt but that PUNISHMENT is the foremost mandate of penal institutions and is currently WAY TOO soft. If anything rehabilitation is a extra goal over and above the true aim (punishment). Also MASS IMPRISONMENT in the US HAS worked as crime rates have declined, this is evident in facts and figures. The next goal should be to reduce costs of running the damn things.

3. In the UK there is strong (majority support) for capital punishment, but hey lets just throw democracy out the window and implement NWO socialist plutocracy,
These men see fit to haughtily sniff at the proletariats (and other classes) 'barbaric' will and play pseudo-altruistic god games. Studying political and social theory it is clear that these are no more than dogmatic, undemocratic laws of arrogant leftists limousine liberal meglomaniacs.



[Edited on 14-3-2004 by The Fifth Column]

Originally posted by mOjOm

Originally posted by intrepid
I do see what you are saying. Unfortunatly that utopia will not be, I wish it could be. We have to deal with a real situation and it HAS been proven that capital punishment works as a deterent.

If capital punishment was the answer, then why isn't it working.

It is working! The criminal is dead which is the ultimate PUNISHMENT!
Lets reiterate.

Capital PUNISHMENT = Dead criminal = SUCCESS.
Capital DETTERANT = Dead criminal = debatable either way.
Capital REHABILITATION = Dead Criminal = oops.


IT IS ABOUT PAYING FOR THE CRIME NOTHING ELSE!!!!
ie PUNISHMENT!

Now as another very important jurisprudential point:

The death penalty as a DETERANT is a CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT!!!
Which is unconstituional in the USA IIRC!

Why?
Well because severity is factored in to the sentence of INDIVIDUAL PERSON(s) in the hope of preventing people commiting the same crime after knowing of a convicts fate. So you are being PUNISHED over and above what the offence should elicit. UNJUST!
nb. This has been explained more eloquently than i can be bothered to at the moment.

THIS APPLYS TO HARSH PRISON SENTENCES AS WELL!!!
2 yrs added on to a sentence as a 'deterrant' for a crime because, say there has recently been a sharp increase in said crime. That is cruel and unusual for the individual! Damn politicised agenda!

Thus Deterance should be IRRELEVANT IN A FAIR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM!
Deterance, if legislated by authority at all, should not affect sentencing of criminals.

So to conclude:
Deterance should not factor into sentencing.
Punishment is #1 concern of criminal justice.
Rehabilitation MAY be considered AFTER and ONLY after the
criminal has been punished.

Final thought, only personal morality deters a criminal from the WILL to commit crime.
Of course an armed populace deters burglars etc etc, but thats another debate.

Originally posted by bolshevik

there is a issue of free will i agree, but our ability to make informed, reasonable decision is at the mercy of experience and learned truths (or untruths as the case may be). im sure that you can look at the people around you and see how they influenced your socio-political beliefs; its the same with criminals.

[B]to state otherwise is to argue that people are born evil and to me this sounds absurd - by definition wouldnt that require a gene for evilness?[/B]

the deviant mindset of criminals means that the education system in prisons is entirely necessary to provide people with the sound influences they lacked previously. this is the only way to rehabilitate people back into society. the only other option is for society to give up on people who are imprisoned. indeed, if people who commit crims are 'evil' then does that mean a teenager imprisoned for robbery should spend his entire life incarcerated?

i also cannot agree with your statement that social justice doesnt help the poor. the sole purpose of progressive taxation is to redistribute wealth through programmes such as housing benefit, single parents benefit, unmeployment benefit, state pensions and disability benefit. what are they if not beneficial to the poor?

your statement that taxation steals in the name of justice is interestin. have you read'anarchy, state and utopia' by Nozick? that idea is his central premise. i personally dont like that idea. i think that people have a moral responsibilty to help the rest of society whenever possible. im always puzzled at how rightwing people can be fiercly patriotic, yet at the same time be happy to sit back with their $millions whilst their fellow countrymen starve.

Born evil?
NO! NO! NO! not my point at all. Whether they are evil or good, natured or nurtured is irrelevent. Only that for whatever reason they have COMMITED EVIL acts, the ACT is being punished NOT their 'evilness rating'.

Raping and murdering kids = EVIL.
Whether someone who comitted these crimes gave to charity or was a satanist is not the point.
EVIL ACT = PUNISHMENT!!!!

As for rehabilitation see previous posts.
As for social welfare, well its of topic but facts are facts IT IS LEGAL PLUNDER!!! This is incontrovertible!
The dogmatic justifiacation of it is a contradiction in itself ie 'social justice'. Since when was STEALING by FORCE 'justice'?
I'll tell you when, when in name of the law ie 'legal plunder', in this same way a 'government' could justify murder as 'legal killing' as it has been legilslated.
Then there is the whole question of how socialism keeps the poor down while removing aspiration which i wont go into.

As for your screenname, communism = inevitable tyranny this is just a logical no brainer.
Total equality = need for total power to implement = total autocracy/plutocracy = tyranny. This is evident in every nation it has been tried.

Originally posted by The Fifth Column
It is working! The criminal is dead which is the ultimate PUNISHMENT!
Lets reiterate.

Capital PUNISHMENT = Dead criminal = SUCCESS.
Capital DETTERANT = Dead criminal = debatable either way.
Capital REHABILITATION = Dead Criminal = oops.

So to conclude:
Deterance should not factor into sentencing.
Punishment is #1 concern of criminal justice.
Rehabilitation MAY be considered AFTER and ONLY after the criminal has been punished.

Final thought, only personal morality deters a criminal from the WILL to commit crime.
Of course an armed populace deters burglars etc etc, but thats another debate.

NO, it's not working! In fact, it never has worked, and has been shown time and time again to make no difference. The only difference is that in having it in use, we are Justifying Murder under certain conditions such as Group Hatred and/or Criminal Punishment, and then giving the 'OK' to a Flawed System(Legal System) within Society to carry it out. Look at the facts:

~117 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice. 78 for 'All Crimes', 15 for 'All but Military Crimes' and 24 retain it legally but haven't used it for atleast 10 years and do not plan to.

~78 other countries retain and use the death penalty, but the number of countries which actually execute prisoners in any one year is much smaller.

~In 2002, 81 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran and the USA. In China at least 1,060 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher. At least 113 executions were carried out in Iran. 71 people were executed in the USA.

~8 countries since 1990 are known to have executed prisoners who were under 18 years old at the time of the crime. The country which has carried out the greatest number of known executions of child offenders is the USA (19 since 1990). Amnesty International recorded two executions of child offenders in 2003: one in China, and one in the USA.

~In Canada, the homicide rate per 100,000 population fell from a peak of 3.09 in 1975, (the year before the abolition of the death penalty for murder), to 2.41 in 1980, and since then it has declined further. In 2002, 26 years after abolition, the homicide rate was 1.85 per 100,000 population, 40 per cent lower than in 1975.

~Since 1973, 113 prisoners have been released from death row in the USA after evidence emerged of their innocence of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death. Some had come close to execution after spending many years under sentence of death. Recurring features in their cases include prosecutorial or police misconduct; the use of unreliable witness testimony, physical evidence, or confessions; and inadequate defence representation.

~65 prisoners were executed in the USA in 2003, bringing the year-end total to 885 executed since the use of the death penalty was resumed in 1977. The 900th execution was carried out on 3 March 2004.

~Over 3,500 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2004.

~38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law. The death penalty is also provided under US federal military and civilian law.

~It is incorrect to assume that people who commit such serious crimes as murder do so after rationally calculating the consequences. Often murders are committed in moments when emotion overcomes reason or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Some people who commit violent crime are highly unstable or mentally ill. Moreover, those who do commit premeditated serious crimes may decide to proceed despite the risks in the belief that they will not be caught. The key to deterrence in such cases is to increase the likelihood of detection, arrest and conviction.

~An execution cannot be used to condemn killing. Such an act by the state is the mirror image of the criminal's willingness to use physical violence against a victim. Additionally, all criminal justice systems are vulnerable to discrimination and error. No system is or could conceivably be capable of deciding fairly, consistently and infallibly who should live and who should die. Expediency, discretionary decisions and prevailing public opinion may influence the proceedings from the initial arrest to the last-minute decision on clemency.

This and more can be found at web.amnesty.org...

Homicides from 1950-2000: (Source: FBI-Crime Reports)
Year / per 100k pop. / Approx. #
1950 / 4.6 / 7,020
1955 / 4.1 / 6,850
1960 / 5.1 / 9,110
1965 / 5.1 / 9,960
1970 / 7.9 / 16,000
1975 / 9.6 / 20,510
1980 / 10.2 / 23,040
1985 / 7.9 / 18,980
1990 / 9.4 / 23,440
1995 / 8.2 / 21,610
2000 / 5.5 / 15,517

This plus more info can be found here: www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

Does it seem to be working to you??? If it was really working these numbers would be going down. Notice especially from 1975 to 1980 which was when the supreme court ReInstated it. I guess nobody heard the announcement, then or now. That or 'It Doesn't Change Anything".

Executions by year: 1608-2000


Executions by year: 1976-2003




Here are some more FACTS and DATA on the Subject:
~The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the South repeatedly has the highest murder rate. In 1999, it was the only region with a murder rate above the national rate. The South accounts for 80% of executions. The Northeast, which has less than 1% of all executions in the U.S., has the lowest murder rate.

~States Without the Death Penalty Have Better Record on Homicide Rates
A new survey by the New York Times found that states without the death penalty have lower homicide rates than states with the death penalty. The Times reports that ten of the twelve states without the death penalty have homicide rates below the national average, whereas half of the states with the death penalty have homicide rates above. During the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48% - 101% higher than in states without the death penalty. "I think Michigan made a wise decision 150 years ago," said the state's governor, John Engler, a Republican, referring to the state's abolition of the death penalty in 1846. "We're pretty proud of the fact that we don't have the death penalty." (New York Times, 9/22/00)

Death Penalty vs. Non-Death Penalty State Comparisons 1990-2000


Lot's more info and charts: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org...

Do you still think it's working??? Because it doesn't. More and more people are waking up to the fact that it's not working, which is exactly what research has shown from various countries and organizations.

Killing People that Kill People isn't going to accomplish anything other than KILLING PEOPLE! Why is this so difficult to understand?
The ends do not always Justify the means.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
The Death Penalty is only adding Fuel to the Fire.