Jesus worshiping his God:
Let us look at Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God." Here we see that Jesus had a God, a supreme God, who is higher than him and stronger than him. Jesus was God's servant and he prayed to God so God would strengthen him more and reinforce him with patience and desire to continue his mission in spreading the word of God Almighty.
Also, let us look at Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' " Here in this verse we see two things: (1) Jesus bowed down on his face and prayed in submission to his GOD in obedience. (2) Jesus was begging his GOD to let the cup pass away from him. Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus. GOD had to do it for Jesus !. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe, the all knowing, most powerful??!!
Also, let us look at Matthew 26:42 "Again, for the second time, he (Jesus) went off and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.'" My comments on this verse are similar to the above one (Matthew 26:39), Jesus begged his GOD to will what Jesus wanted to happen. Jesus couldn't will it by himself.
Also, let us look at Matthew 26:44 "So leaving them, he (Jesus) went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word." Here we see that Jesus for the third time begged his GOD to will what Jesus wished for in Matthew 26:39 above. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe if he (1) begs, and (2) lacks power?!
Now in Isaiah 9:6 "......and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder......",
Let us look at Luke 22:29 "and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father (my GOD) has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,". Here we see that Jesus came down to serve Jehovah's Kingdom. It wasn't Jehovah who was in Jesus in this verse. It was Jesus the Messenger of God who was serving his God's Kingdom, Jehovah's Kingdom.
Let us look at 2 Samuel 7:13 -14 "He (David) is the one that will build a house for My Name (Jehovah's Name), and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. I myself shall become his Father (His Guardian or Inspirer), and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam." In this verse, we see that David who came before Jesus had done the same thing to God as Jesus did. David was a king, leader, and a messenger from God. It doesn't say that Jehovah is in David, nor it says that David is Jehovah. The same way we interpret 2 Samuel 7:13-14 and all the verses about David should be the same way we should interpret the Verses that talk about Jesus. Jesus is not Jehovah, nor ever was.
Let us look at Revelation 19:16 "And upon his (Jesus) outer garment, even upon his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords." Here we see that Jesus was called the King of all Kings and the Lord (leader or master) of all Lords (masters). It doesn't prove anything about Jesus being Jehovah, nor ever talks about Jehovah.
Let us look at Mathew 28:18-20 "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: All authority (from GOD) has been given me in heaven and on the earth. Go therefore and make disciples of people of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD's inspiration), teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." Here in this verse we have few points that Trinitarians often confuse. Trinitarians use this verse very heavily to try to prove that Jehovah or Allah is 3 in 1, meaning that GOD is the father + Jesus + The Holy Spirit.
This claim is a false one, because when Jesus said in Mathew 28:18-20 ".....All authority (from GOD) has been give to me in heaven and on the earth...." it clearly shows that Jesus had a stronger or higher power over him. One has to ask himself a very simple question here: How can GOD say that GOD had given him authority? It doesn't make any sense, does it?
Also, when Jesus in Mathew 28:18-20 said ".....baptizing them in the name of the Father (God), the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (GOD'S inspiration)...." he didn't say go and baptize people in my name (Jehovah). He mentioned his GOD first, then himself (GOD'S messenger), and in GOD's inspiration (The Holy Spirit). This clearly disproves the claim that GOD IS THREE = GOD+JESUS+HOLY SPIRIT.
Originally posted by Truth
Ive did this before, but if you want I could give you 20 some passages in which jesus
refs to himself as God, or is stated as the one from th beggining if you want?
Im wondering though if its useless writing.
Originally posted by Truth
Datruth, what i mean is that ive given 100s of passages over and over to respond to these type of post
and wondered it to be useless doing it again.
I mean come on guys. what are you scared of? that Jesus could actually be God and that you might not want to face up to it? I truly do not get it. I never grew up christian and probably sinned more than you could imagine yourself sinning Datruth, and when I read his words and saw miracles of him personally in private and gave up sin he revealed himself to me, and I (accepted) his truth before the miracles.
I will never get the stumbling block. the inner secret that you guys need to dis prove him all the time. There must be a reason, there has to be a reason. And I just do notknow what it is?
Originally posted by Netchicken
John chapter 1
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn't make.
4 Life itself was in him, and this life gives light to everyone.
5 The light shines through the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it.
6 God sent John the Baptist 7 to tell everyone about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony.
8 John himself was not the light; he was only a witness to the light.
9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was going to come into the world.
10 But although the world was made through him, the world didn't recognize him when he came.
11 Even in his own land and among his own people, he was not accepted.
12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.
13 They are reborn! This is not a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan-this rebirth comes from God.
14 So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.* And we have seen his glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father.
"'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good except God alone.'" - Mark 10:18
"So Jesus said, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.'" - John 8:28
"The father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he only he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." - John 6:38
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - Luke 22:42
"About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46
"Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me." - John 8:42
"For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it." - John 12:49
"I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge." - John 8:50
"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16
"Jesus said to them, 'Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.'" - Matthew 13:57
"Jesus answered, 'My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me.'" - John 7:16
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." - John 14:28
A Druid Priest led the ceremonies which were usually a bonfire (to keep evil spirits away and give thanks to the sun) and fruits and nuts being placed outside houses or taken with great ceremony away from the village. This was done so that these offerings wouldnt lead spirits straight to their door. Blood sacrifices were also a part of the traditions to give back to the earth in thanks for all it had given them. Most stayed in doors, or disguised themselves so spirits wouldnt know them, or think they were a spirit as well..
These traditions continued on until the 7th century, as the Roman Catholic Church gain power and wanted to force pagans to practice Christianity. Knowing that pagans didnt care for it, with all the rules and restrictions, they created a day called All Saints or All Hallows (meaning holy) Eve. This was a celebration of all the Saints without specific days, which fell straight on Samhain. That way the celebration was to Christ, in the Churches way of thinking. However the pagans still practices their religions.
In England, in 1517 there was a split in the church when Martian Luther nailed his statement to the church door. He had strong opinions on paganism, basically a zero tolerance of it. He used the Roman Catholic Churches softness in incorporating Christ into the pagan rituals against the Catholics.
_Letter to the Archbishop Albrecht of Mainz_
by Dr. Martin Luther,
October 31, 1517
_Works of Martin Luther_
Adolph Spaeth, L.D. Reed, Henry Eyster Jacobs, et Al., Trans. & Eds.
(Philadelphia: A. J. Holman Company, 1915),
Volume 1, pp. 25-28
LETTER TO THE ARCHBISHOP ALBRECHT
OCTOBER 31, 1517
To the Most Reverend Father in Christ and Most Illustrious
Lord, Albrecht of Magdeburg and Mainz, Archbishop and Primate
of the Church, Margrave of Brandenburg, etc., his own lord and
pastor in Christ, worthy of reverence and fear, and most
The grace of God be with you in all its fulness and power!
Spare me, Most Reverend Father in Christ and Most Illustrious
Prince, that I, the dregs of humanity, have so much boldness
that I have dared to think of a letter to the height of your
Sublimity. The Lord Jesus is my witness that, conscious of my
smallness and baseness, I have long deferred what I am now
shameless enough to do, -- moved thereto most of all by the
duty of fidelity which I acknowledge that I owe to your most
Reverend Fatherhood in Christ. Meanwhile, therefore, may your
Highness deign to cast an eye upon one speck of dust, and for
the sake of your pontifical clemency to heed my prayer.
Papal indulgences for the building of St. Peter's are
circulating under your most distinguished name, and as regards
them, I do not bring accusation against the outcries of the
preachers, which I have not heard, so much as I grieve over
the wholly false impressions which the people have conceived
from them; to wit, -- the unhappy souls believe that if they
have purchased letters of indulgence they are sure of their
salvation; again, that so soon as they cast their
contributions into the money-box, souls fly out of purgatory;
furthermore, that these graces [i.e., the graces conferred in
the indulgences are so great that there is no sin too great
to be absolved, even, as they say -- though the thing is
impossible -- if one had violated the Mother of God; again,
that a man is free, through these indulgences, from all
penalty and guilt.
O God, most good! Thus souls committed to your care, good
Father, are taught to their death, and the strict account,
which you must render for all such, grows and increases. For
this reason I have no longer been able to keep quiet about
this matter, for it is by no gift of a bishop that man becomes
sure of salvation, since he gains this certainty not even by
the "inpoured grace" of God, but the Apostle bids us always
"work out our own salvation in fear and trembling," and Peter
says, "the righteous scarcely shall be saved." Finally, so
narrow is the way that leads to life, that the Lord, through
the prophets Amos and Zechariah, calls those who shall be
saved "brands plucked from the burning," and everywhere
declares the difficulty of salvation.
Why, then, do the preachers of pardons, by these false fables
and promises, make the people careless and fearless? Whereas
indulgences confer on us no good gift, either for salvation or
for sanctity, but only take away the external penalty, which
it was formerly the custom to impose according to the canons.
Finally, works of piety and love are infinitely better than
indulgences, and yet these are not preached with such ceremony
or such zeal; nay, for the sake of preaching the indulgences
they are kept quiet, though it is the first and the sole duty
of all bishops that the people should learn the Gospel and the
love of Christ, for Christ never taught that indulgences
should be preached. How great then is the horror, how great
the peril of a bishop, if he permits the Gospel to be kept
quiet, and nothing but the noise of indulgences to be spread
among his people! Will not Christ say to them, "straining at a
gnat and swallowing a camel"?
In addition to this, Most Reverend Father in the Lord, it is
said in the Instruction to the Commissaries which is issued
under your name, Most Reverend Father (doubtless without your
knowledge and consent), that one of the chief graces of
indulgence is that inestimable gift of God by which man is
reconciled to God, and all the penalties of purgatory are
destroyed. Again, it is said that contrition is not necessary
in those who purchase souls [out of purgatory] or buy
But what can I do, good Primate and Most Illustrious Prince,
except pray your Most Reverend Fatherhood by the Lord Jesus
Christ that you would deign to look [on this matter] with the
eye of fatherly care, and do away entirely with that treatise
and impose upon the preachers of pardons another form of
preaching; lest, perchance, one may some time arise, who will
publish writings in which he will confute both them and that
treatise, to the shame of your Most Illustrious Sublimity. I
shrink very much from thinking that this will be done, and yet
I fear that it will come to pass, unless there is some speedy
These faithful offices of my insignificance I beg that your
Most Illustrious Grace may deign to accept in the spirit of a
Prince and a Bishop, i.e., with the greatest clemency, as I
offer them out of a faithful heart, altogether devoted to you,
Most Reverend Father, since I too am a part of your flock.
May the Lord Jesus have your Most Reverend Fatherhood
eternally in His keeping. Amen.
From Wittenberg on the Vigil of All Saints, MDXVII.
If it please the Most Reverend Father he may see these my
Disputations, and learn how doubtful a thing is the opinion of
indulgences which those men spread as though it were most
To the Most Reverend Father,
BROTHER MARTIN LUTHER.
Whta luther did was break away from the church (the teaching) church because of mans actions in the church,
Exactlly misleading people about what was in the books and selling induulgences
and he created a whole new religion not practiced by anyone up until he created a new church which Jesus did not found,
Jesus didn't found the holy roman catholic church either. That was Constiene who mixed pagan and Christian ideals and brought Christianity to the forefront to unify the roman empire
and he started the biggest evil in all of mandkind and that is the creation of 30,000 different christian denominations which ALL believe in something different.
well if the catholic church wasn't so corrupt he wouldn't of had to break away from the church so don't blame him for doing what right
So if they are all right then heaven is divided and all christians are against one another. How come
some of these churches recieve communion and some don't? how come some believe he is God and some don't?
That debate was started long before Martian Luther, once again it goes back to constienne. Some believe that he was God and some didn't. The priest gain to much power and he had to unify them so he brought them all together to say that he was a transcended version of God
Originally posted by soothsayer
Do you two always follow each other? Have either of you gotten along on any thread?
It is times like these, when you must ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?"
I now return you to your normally schedualed performance.
Originally posted by soothsayer
I'm sorry *snicker*, but it is all rather silly, if you think about it. Religion is a personal thing, everybody can be given the same book, and everybody will get a different message.
Is it really that big of a deal?
The point behind Jesus was his message, not who he was.
You two are sounding like versions of me and Hamilton!
But I say all this in jest, no insults meant.