The Final Nail In The Coffin: Irrefutable Proof the Flight 93 Crash Scene Is a Lie

OK, mirage. Glad you fly with an instructor....but, how many hours do you have? Is he instructing, or are you just flying with him??

Actual stick time must be 500+ hours.

I've got at least 1,000 hours flying FS (I mean *flying* not pushing buttons and watching it fly itself).

I''d be happy to do an IR any day.

Great post! And ill be reading this when i get back from work

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
...
TWA Flight 800, and specifically the part where it is to do entirely with the way the TWA crash was investigated. It has every relevance to Flight 93.

If nothing else, it demonstrates a trend of ignoring facts, and drawing false conclusions based, not least, on bad data.

If you really were in the USAF, and really did study crash investigation, I'm surprised you can't see this TBH.

If you can't see the relevance of the TWA investigation as it relates to the Flight 93 investigation, and the manner in which the conclusions don't fit the facts, and demonstrate unequivocally that key evidence was ignored during the investigation, then I'll try and clarify.

...

USAF, by USC. Need proof?

If you're offering, I'm asking.

800 has nothing to do with 93. 93 was an act of terrorist, 800 was an design flaw! Terrorist act is not an accident, a flaw in the design is an accident. The NTSB does accidents, not terrorist acts. As a trained aircraft investigator there is no correlation to 800 and the flights hijacked on 9/11.

93 was flown into the ground by terrorist, 800 fell apart at altitude. There are crazy and wild conspiracy theories about 800, so you are right, there are crazy and wild conspiracy theories about the flights on 9/11 just like the crazy ones for 800; none based on facts or reality.

With a course in aircraft accident investigation, it is easy to see Flight 93 impact is normal, not some fantasy story made up by people who lack knowledge on physics and aircraft accident investigation. No one needs a course in aircraft accident investigation to understand 9/11. A good understanding of physics and kinetic energy could help people avoid belief in the lies and false information on Flight 93. In our class, we learned about high speed impacts, and many kinds of accidents. There are thousands of trained professional aircraft accident investigators in the United States, and how many have come forward to support the made up fantasy of 9/11 truth?

I still can't find a picture of a plane crash that looks anything like that of flight 93.

Originally posted by beachnut
With a course in aircraft accident investigation, it is easy to see Flight 93 impact is normal, not some fantasy story made up by people who lack knowledge on physics and aircraft accident investigation.

In the accident investigator course you should have learned that anytime a aircraft crash is considered a crime the FBI becomes the lead investigating agency and there is a criminal investigation.

Flight 800 was a criminal investigation 2 times. First the mid-air explosion was originally believed to be casued by a bomb.

The second criminal investigation was when witnesses stated they saw a missile. So flight 800 was a crime scene just like Flight 93.

Flight 800 hit the water at high speed, the Navy was still able to recover lots of pieces to do a reconstruction. So why have not seen a reconstruction done of Flight 93 as part of the criminal investigation?





[edit on 15-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by Jezus
I still can't find a picture of a plane crash that looks anything like that of flight 93.

The biggest parts showing are in the photos. High speed impacts like 93.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by beachnut
Flight 800 was a criminal investigation 2 times. First the mid-air explosion was originally believed to be casued by a bomb.

The second criminal investigation was when witnesses stated they saw a missile. So flight 800 was a crime scene just like Flight 93.

Flight 800 hit the water at high speed, the Navy was still able to recover lots of pieces to do a reconstruction. So why have not seen a reconstruction done of Flight 93 as part of the criminal investigation?

Yes everyone knows the NTSB does accidents! 800 was an accident, and suspected to be a bombing or some other incident. BUT, since they had no PROOF of it being a CRIME, the NTSB had to do a FULL up investigation and use the FBI to check for BOMBS and EXPLOSIVES. Therefore they tried to reconstruct 800 to FIND EVIDENCE of CRIME, or the mode of failure in the design. There is a NTSB REPORT on 800, it was not found to be a crime. But gee, there are a lot of crazy ideas about 800 and it is a CT like 93 for those who lack knowledge to understand the evidence and make a rational conclusion.

800 witnesses did not see a missile, they saw reflections in the ocean of the in-flight break up of a large aircraft burning. Sorry, no missile, that is why they had to reconstruct, to find evidence for the malfunction or a missile/bomb. Visual illusions do not become real missiles; the falling debris on fire falls as the reflections "rise" to meet at impact; the missile is born! For those who have seen visual illusions, they can understand how an illusion overrides reality, I do. On Flight 93 it takes no great skill to see a terrorist flew 93 into the ground. Due to the passengers figuring out 9/11 in minutes, a feat 9/11 truth is failing to accomplish after 6 long years of making up lies and false ideas void of evidence.

Flight 93 was known to be a terrorist act! When they decoded the FDR they found no bomb evidence, the plane was perfect when it hit. I suspect an engine could have fallen off with all the bad flying, but no, the engine was still working. Too bad they have a FDR!

Just what do you put back together when a plane hits at 600 mph? What parts survive? Have you ever seen a 600 mph impact? Flight 175 at the WTC was close to 600 mph, that is what happens, the plane is smashed up into tiny pieces, save a few ejected pieces sheared off. Parts are ejected from the impact area with great energy. Go ahead take something and do your own 600 mph impact study.

So you do understand 93's impact is what it should look like? You are an AF person with experience? 93's impact is exactly what a high speed impact looks like, it is to simple to figure out.

Go to an Air Show at an Air Force Base and seek out a trained Flight Safety Officer, and ask him to explain why 93 is a classic high speed impact.

Originally posted by beachnut
Yes everyone knows the NTSB does accidents!

But the FBI does crimes and criminal investigations, the FBI lead the main investigation into Flight 800.
twa800.com...

After the crash, the FBI immediately formed a Missile Team, which included an agent who was a former fighter pilot. The team also included military missile experts. This team, combined with the Suffolk County police, zeroed in on a dozen credible eyewitnesses. The team went to the location where each witness saw the events and using GPS and a hand bearing compass, they triangulated potential launch locations for at least 2 shoulder-fired missiles. This is documented in a letter to their superiors. Released under FOIA in 1999, it was clear from their letter that the FBI missile team believed missiles had been fired at Flight 800. However, James Kallstrom would have none of it! He demanded they bring him a "smoking gun", a piece of physical evidence that could prove a missile had been fired.

This search for a "smoking gun" led the missile team to initiate an elaborate dredging operation to look specifically for Stinger missile parts. The Stinger is a US made MANPADS missile. The press was told the dredging was being done to look for every last part of the aircraft and missing victims. However, the dredging operation was not centered over the aircraft wreckage site, it was centered over the location identified by the missile team as possible launch points. The FBI missile team hired 3 scallop trawlers to dredge an area with a radius of 2.7 nautical miles, which just happens to be the range of a Stinger missile. Each trawler was equipped with 2 FBI agents with detailed instructions, including drawings, of how to recognize Stinger missile components. The trawling maps are annotated "Per FBI - Possible Missile Launch Zone - 2.7nm.". This operation went on for nearly 6 months before being abruptly cancelled. No one knows if they found what they were looking for.

You do not have to believe me read all the reports and accounts from all the FBI sources. Like the following.

www.fbi.gov...

We’ve called on our dive teams—now officially known as Underwater Search and Evidence Response Teams, or USERTs—many times over the years since the first one was launched in 1982. For example:

When TWA Flight 800 exploded over the Atlantic in 1996, our New York team helped scour a 40-square mile patch of the ocean floor, recovering the remains of all 230 victims and 96 percent of the airplane.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

@beachnut: Thanks for the proof - you've just elevated yourself above those who just claim things.

I can figure KE as well as anyone else.

For the WTC impacts, I figured an energy approx. 1/20th of that of the "Fat Man", per impact.

Flight 93 is going to be in a similar ball park.

For a bomb the size of "Fat Man", it would generate an earthquake of approximately Mag. 4.7 to 4.8. It was a 23 kilo-ton weapon.

1/20th of 23,000 tons = 1,150 tons.

1,150 tons of TNT would result in an earthquake of a little over Magnitude 4.0.

Page 21 of this thread is a PDF document.

The WTC show seismic events of Mag 2.1 for the collapses, and a much reduced seismic signal for the impacts, but there is no mention of the impact energy from Flight 93.

I would have though a Mag. 4 event would have been noticed, considering the ground is absorbing 95% of the energy vs. the towers absorbing most of the energy from the aircraft collisions!!

@LaBTop: The Shanksville Memorial site is no longer functioning.

[edit on 15-8-2008 by mirageofdeceit]

reply to post by beachnut


What are those pictures?

What crashes? What planes? Where are they from?

Here are photos of Payne Stewarts Learjet crash.

The plane hit the ground at very high speed almost straight in (like Flight 93) but even the smaller plane left debris that can be identified.

upload.wikimedia.org...

upload.wikimedia.org...

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Here are photos of Payne Stewarts Learjet crash.

The plane hit the ground at very high speed almost straight in (like Flight 93) but even the smaller plane left debris that can be identified.

upload.wikimedia.org...

upload.wikimedia.org...

Payne Stewarts plane was trimmed to fly at climb speed! It ran out of fuel, it landed at a speed close to climb speed. Before you compare the crashes, you need the speed.

Did Payne Stewart's plane hit at 600 mph? If not then there is less damage. Energy is equal to one half the mass times velocity squared. The velocity squared is the key. Look it up, it is called physics.

93 was not like Payne Stewards plane, the speed of 93 was greater. Fact is, there is identifiable debris in big kinetic energy impacts like Flight 93; try not to ignore real facts; like reality.
Like an engine. From 93.

Or a set of windows. From 93.
Or some of the outside of a United Airlines aircraft, flight 93 on 9/11. Oops, the right color!.

The real nail in the coffin of false ideas of the truth movement; the FDR! From 93, with all 25 hours of previous flights in the data stored. Kinds of proves the truth movement to be false conclusions, just a fantasy.

... Federal Bureau of Investigation did a parallel investigation into the crash. On November 18, 1997, the FBI that no evidence had been found of a criminal act and the NTSB assumed sole control on the investigation. Parallel is the key here.

Reality is, TWA 800 is an accident investigation and a report done by the NTSB. Payne Stewart's plane an accident investigation and a report done by the NTSB, crashed in a spiral dive near climb speed, I would say 280 to 350 KIAS, not 600 mph. Flight 93 was a crime committed by terrorist and this was backed up with proof, the FBI is responsible for the investigation.

Parts prove 93 crashed in PA, as does DNA. So far zero evidence to support the false idea of this thread title.

Originally posted by beachnut
Did Payne Stewart's plane hit at 600 mph? If not then there is less damage.

Gee its so fun and easy to prove you wrong since you do not do any research. You really should try it sometime.

Payne Stewarts plane hit at near the speed of sound.
en.wikipedia.org...

Impact occurred approximately 1713Z, or 1213 local, after a total flight time of 3 hours, 54 minutes, with the aircraft hitting the ground at a nearly supersonic speed and an extreme angle.

Besides we have the government documents that already state that Flight 93 was intercepted, which shows reasonable doubt in the offical story.


[edit on 16-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by beachnut
Did Payne Stewart's plane hit at 600 mph? If not then there is less damage.

Gee its so fun and easy to prove you wrong since you do not do any research. You really should try it sometime.

Payne Stewarts plane hit at near the speed of sound.
en.wikipedia.org...

Impact occurred approximately 1713Z, or 1213 local, after a total flight time of 3 hours, 54 minutes, with the aircraft hitting the ground at a nearly supersonic speed and an extreme angle.

Besides we have the government documents that already state that Flight 93 was intercepted, which shows reasonable doubt in the offical story.


[edit on 16-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

I never saw the official report say the speed of impact. www.ntsb.gov... Is that why there is no real parts that look like a plane? You are saying Payne Stewart's plane looks like Flight 93! Darn you are right, the NTSB says they had to painstakingly work to put the parts together, it looks just like 93 was all messed up. You got me, you just proved the thread title is a lie and false information.

Because the aircraft impacted at nearly supersonic speed and at an extremely steep angle, none of its components remained intact. Therefore, our investigators had to painstakingly examine the fragmented valves, connectors, and portions of other aircraft parts before they could draw any conclusions about the accident's cause. www.ntsb.gov...

Engine of 93, it is just like Payne Stewart's plane parts identified. Gee, this is cool.
But I can see, the parts of 93 on top and the parts of Stewart, not much looks like a plane but gee, 93 has some that do look just like a plane. Why does the official report not mention the speed of impact? 93 does! Is Payne Stewart the real conspiracy here?
I do not understand your comparison. Flight 93 and Payne Stewart has parts that can be show to be from aircraft. You say the plane hit at near supersonic speed based on the NTSB, the same NTSB you do not accept the FDR from Flight 93? What is this, selective truth?

Flight 93 is a high speed impact, and 600 mph (close to supersonic, like Payne Stewart's plane, but not in the Payne Stewart final report?). See the parts that look like a plane. If you take all the evidence, as they did with Payne Stewart's crash, you will clearly see the thread title is false.



So you have proof of an intercept? That is funny. Good for you! You need to go get your Pulitzer Prize before someone beats you to it. Or was that an editorial "WE"?

Your brilliant expose of Payne Stewart's accident impact similarities to 93, confirming 93 high speed impact damage, is great. Good job proving the thread title false.
It is easy to prove someone wrong, like me, why with the entire truth movement conclusions being wrong; are you unable to prove those wrong?

It is neat you present the facts, from the NTSB showing 93's impact is just like a high speed impact. You sure jumped on the speed issue. But then you opened the door on the damage similarities of 93 and the LearJet. (www.ntsb.gov...) Better yet, you show photos of scrap metal of Payne Stewarts plane; so much like 93.

What was the speed of impact for Payne Stewart's plane again, in KIAS please? You got me good, the photos don't look like a plane, just like 93, but if you study the parts, you can see both 93 and Payne Stewart impacts, were planes. What is your point, again?

I guess you are right, both 93 and Payne Stewart look a lot like high speed impacts. You got me, I was wrong and you provided the evidence to show 93 is a high speed impact, and prove the thread title is wrong. Now you have some new "evidence" to garner a Pulitzer Prize, but you have lost the evidence?

I still can't find a speed of impact in the final report for Payne. But I have the exact speed of Flight 93 in the last second as 93 impacts.

Better get those document to the authorities and get that Pulitzer Prize. It is going on 7 years.

Originally posted by beachnut
800 has nothing to do with 93. 93 was an act of terrorist, 800 was an design flaw! Terrorist act is not an accident, a flaw in the design is an accident.

Au contraire, monsieur de bunker. Both Flights 800 and 93 were downed by the U.S. government. The only "accident" was the Navy missile that accidentally downed 800. Flight 93 was shot down by an F-16, as verified by this Langley AFB mechanic:

"I am an Air Force veteran. I was serving at Langley AFB, Virginia on Sept. 11. (not to be confused with CIA headquarters at Langley, VA). The "Alert Squadron" of 4 F-16 Falcons also stationed at Langley AFB was scrambled AFTER the "plane" crashed into the Pentagon. Because of my position as a ground equipment mechanic, I had access to the flightline operations that day. My friends were Crew Cheifs and Weapons Loaders, among other professions on the flightline that day. One of my [unusual] duties that day was to drive a Loader (personal friend) along with a rack of live missiles (AIM-9's and AIM-120's) across the active runway to the Alert Squadron and drop them off. I was towing equipment to the flightline, so when it was time to go back and pick up the Loader (and our missile trailer) I was unable to do so, but another member of my Flight (a good friend, and later roommate) did go. According to my roommate (and I later confirmed with the Loader) the Loader was completely silent most of the trip back to our side of the base, after they crossed the active, he spoke. "They shot one down." JJ replied "WHAT?" Loader: "One of those 16's came back with one less missile than it left with" That was all. As they pulled back in to the squadron area, The loader was whisked away by his commanders for debriefing. I didn't see him for a few days, but when I did, he said he couldn't talk about it, but he confirmed that what my roommate had told me was true.

Originally posted by beachnut
93 was flown into the ground by terrorist, 800 fell apart at altitude.

Wrong again, debunker boy! Repeating government propaganda over and over doesn't help your credibility.

Originally posted by beachnut
With a course in aircraft accident investigation, it is easy to see Flight 93 impact is normal, not some fantasy story made up by people who lack knowledge on physics and aircraft accident investigation.

Well, "normal" except for a total lack of wreckage at a 10' X 30' smoking crater, a two-ton engine found a mile away from the "crash site" and a debris field that was spread over 8 miles!

So sorry debunkabot, you're 0 for 3, so you flunked. You'll have to keep repeating that "accident investigation class" until you understand that smoking craters without any wreckage are not aircraft impact sites.

Better luck next term!

reply to post by beachnut


Great pictures of scrap metal, beachnut! All unsourced, unverified and most importantly, not one piece being forensically examined and proven to belong to the alleged Flight UA93 by serial numbers!

Well done, you damage your cause more than you help it, when you post misleading visual hearsay!

Originally posted by beachnut
So you have proof of an intercept? That is funny. Good for you! You need to go get your Pulitzer Prize before someone beats you to it. Or was that an editorial "WE"?

Well the proof of intercept is just one more thing that shows reasonable doubt in the official story.

It is neat you present the facts, from the NTSB showing 93's impact is just like a high speed impact. You sure jumped on the speed issue. But then you opened the door on the damage similarities of 93 and the LearJet. (www.ntsb.gov...) Better yet, you show photos of scrap metal of Payne Stewarts plane; so much like 93.

Well their are still a few problems with Flight 93s impact site.

1. A 757 is several times bigger then a learjet, so where are all the parts and debris that should be there.

2. No official reports on the parts found matching Flight 93.

I guess you are right, both 93 and Payne Stewart look a lot like high speed impacts.

But evidence shows Flight 93's impact was from a shoot down. Which does go along with the official media story.

[edit on 16-8-2008 by ULTIMA1]

@beachnut:

Have you stopped to consider why that alleged side panel with the couple of windows in it is the ONLY piece to have bene photographed? Where are the other parts that should also resemble bits of fuselage? We're looking at

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


so mirage,

you are claiming the FDR was faked? by whom?

Here is some info on the FDR that i posted with a debate with Ultima1:

The Flight Data Recorder

The FBI were the lead investigators for the crash in Shanksville. The FDR was handed over to the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Division on September 13, 2001.

The SSFDR (Solid State Flight Data Recorder) was examined by the NTSB. They determined that the recorder and memory board were found to have damage. Since the amount of the damage was not known, the FDR was taken to the manufactures facility in Redman, Washington. The data was extracted at the Honeywell facility and electronically transfered to the NTSB headquarters.

The transcribed data were then processed by the (RAPS) "Recover Analysis and Presentation Systems" at NTSB headquarters. There, they converted the data into graphic and tabular forms. The examination of the data showed that the recorder operated normally.

The following link will take you to photographs of the recorder and memory board recovered from the crash scene. It also explains in detail how information was translated. In addition is all the graphs etc.

www.gwu.edu...


tell me who and how this was done? you claim it to be easy, yet the data was extracted by the manufacturer. are you trying to say the people that made the thermostat for my HVAC in my home (Honeywell) are also somewhat responsible for the deaths of those on flight 93? or are they too part of this mega-conspiracy?

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


mirage....'twisted bit of painted metal'?

It has the paint scheme of UAL.

mirage....I like your avatar, and I admire your taste.

I'd say that the DFDR data could not be faked....remember, it records for about 25 hours (compared the the CVR, which is a continuous-loop magnetic tape cassette, of about 30 minutes' duration....similar to the old 8-track cassettes from the 1970s)

AND, the recorder is Digital....lots of ones and zeros. NOW, I can't read binary....maybe Steve Jobs can...but to fake it all? Remember, it's at least 25 hours....and it only operates when the main buses are powered....so, that means, every time the airplane was on the ground and unpowered, recording stops. During certain maintenance checks, when they power up, on the ground, they pull the Circuit Breakers (C/B) for both recorders.

NOW...if this was NOT the DFDR for that airframe....then certainly someone would have mentioned it by now.

Just my opinion, of course......

ps.....I've seen some of the NTSB readouts....very compelling, and very realistic.

....well.....TY calls it the SSFDR....we just referred to it as a 'DFDR' because, in the old days, the Flight Recorder was not digital....it was a machine that had a thin strip of aluminum on two reels, that slowly turned, as needles made impressions in the metal. THIS was 1960/1970 technology. The introduction of better FDRs meant more parameters could be recorded, thusly aiding in accident investigations.

[edit on 8/16/0808 by weedwhacker]