Obama Calls for More Responsibility From Black Fathers, page 3
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reply posted on 19-6-2008 @ 07:25 PM by rocknroll
Originally posted by jamie83
I"m still waiting for somebody to explain why this is a controversial subject.

And just saying it was controversial when Cosby said it too doesn't explain WHY it would be controversial. Why would Obama calling for more responsibility from black fathers be controversial?


It's controversial because when Cosby said it, the black community blasted his ass. He was crowned "Uncle Tomm-ish", and told he was taking the white man's position. The black community does not want to hear about their shortcomings. All their problems are not their fault. Where have you been? yeah, people hate to hear the truth because it shames them. Nobody likes being told what they are doing is point blank wrong, especially an entire race of people. It's controversial for Obama NOW because he's not yet Prez. This could put a dent in the black vote for him. He might be accused of picking on the black race. The truth of the matter is he is right.

62% percent of black children are fatherless, vs. 25% of white children are fatherless. Both are bad, but the black race has a way higher incidence of it. Everyone in the world knows this. It's not a secret. It's a fact. Every single black person I work with skipped Father's Day this year. Why? Because their Dad's skipped out when they were young. They don't talk to there dad's. So, after the Father's Day weekend this year, while all us white folk talked about Dad, the blacks in my office had nothing to say.......at all. That's a shame and yes, it definitely needs to be addressed......to the black race specifically since it's a much bigger deal and statistic with their race.


reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 01:21 AM by HarlemHottie
Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
The argument that i noticed was that Barack didn't direct this at black fathers....but he did.

Because he was talking to black people. I stand by what I said in my initial post. If you search the document, you’ll find exactly 2 instances of the word “black” (once, with “white”) and one instance of “African-American”. This is where I think he personalized the speech for his audience. Like you said, it makes more of an impact to speak directly to a point than to talk around it.


You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children.


He concludes:

there are still certain lessons we must strive to live and learn as fathers – whether we are black or white; rich or poor; from the South Side or the wealthiest suburb.


Aside from the first section, the entire body of the speech applies to all American fathers. Like I said before, white American kids will have to do better in school to compete with Indian and Chinese kids, too. The other lessons apply as well.


As far as Bill Cosby, i truely believe he has some facts to back up his opinion.

I have a problem with the fact that you immediately brought up Bill Cosby. Not, like, with you personally, but that people, in general, are comparing the two. Bill Cosby’s “speech” was nothing of the sort. The people in my circle considered it minstrelsy, marginally worse than Rev. Wright at the National Press Club.


Nobody in the black community ever had a bad thing to say about Cosby until…

Really? How did you come by this information? Do you have a link?


If someone came to me and said "i have a plan to fix the white problems of America"…

As a white American, you can rest assured that no one will ever say such a thing. It would be framed in the context of a general American problem, or a regional problem, like meth.


I, for one, am totally against the media. I think the media is one never-ending soap opera, and dont take it at face value, ever.
That being said, in these two relative cases (cosby and obama) i fail to see how the media is twisting these stories.

Do you see the paradox here?

Again, not trying to make an example of you , but this is a common state of mind: Americans who wouldn’t believe the media if they said the sky was blue all of a sudden think everything they say about black people is the gospel truth. I don’t get it. If your sole sources of information on this topic are the news, people you know, and Bill Cosby (of all people! why not a professional?), you’re terribly misinformed.

The problem I have with these conversations about ‘what’s wrong with black men’ is that people, like Bill Cosby, rely on “street facts”, and not actual, real, verifiable, non-anecdotal facts. There is a difference.

Facts like, concentrated poverty leads to broken families and high crime.

Facts like, Iran-Contra really happened and, since then, the black family has never been the same.

These are actual, real, verifiable, non-anecdotal facts.

Here are a few more:
Between 1998 and 2005, black teen pregnancy dropped 21%. During roughly the same period, Hispanic teen pregnancy stayed about the same. Hispanics now have the highest teen pregnancy rate in this country. (CDC)
Oh, and 17 student pregnancies put services in spotlight

It’s a “big issue” to me because this conversation is just another chapter in the book of how unlike ‘the rest of us’ black people are, and, frankly, I’m tired of it. Black people are Americans, in case we’ve all forgotten, and while certain social issues may be exacerbated in the black community, that is the result of relatively simple socio-economical factors. Simple factors that always replicate the same result.

America has been having this conversation since the War on Poverty. If we wanted to change the outcome, we could.

We don’t, unless you’re a “rural American,” in which case, if you’re lucky, you might get a prison full of (mostly) black and latino men in your town. Then, you’ll have more jobs than you know what to do with, and lots of other governmental perks.


The age-old argument that white people dont understand black people problems.

I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but you’ve misunderstood. There are lots of white people that understand “black people problems” quite well. They’re called sociologists and historians. They do the groundwork. The ‘average Joe’ can’t be an expert on everything.


reply posted on 25-6-2008 @ 02:12 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by HarlemHottie


Ok.

But my overlying argument still remains - it is you that has came in here and said "he didnt aim this at black people"

He did not single out black men.
Source

this seemed to be the drive for which you posted. You seemed to think BH was "being silly" and singling out "black fathers"

her title

Obama Calls for More Responsibility From Black Fathers

Is true.

Nobody here is disputing the fact that his message CAN BE TAILORED to the entire existance of fathers everywhere. Nobody here is saying that "white" and "yellow" fathers cannot learn from this as well.

Im not arguing with you on that point

Im arguing with you on this point

Obama starts his 'father be better' speech with this

Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

Which - yes i totally agree, it is aimed at every father, regardless of skin color.

But he follows it up - and pointedly talks about BLACK FATHERS. Why? Because he, himself, is a black father. He is talking to a black audience.

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled – doubled – since we were children. We know the statistics – that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.



You admit yourself that he's talking to his audience. He's talking to black people. He's scultping his speech TOWARDS black people. So the argument isnt "he means this for everyone"

we know that already

the argument is

"in THIS speech, Obama is calling on Black fathers"
because he is. He's talking to black fathers. He talks about black fathers. He talks about the black community. Because when he's talking to black people, he needs to talk about their needs and their worries.

So?

He's talking about BLACK FATHERS in "THIS" speech.
Which is my point.

It seemed as if you came storming into this thread foaming from the mouth going after the OP, in terms of saying "this isnt about black fathers"
well, obama crafted it that way.

Though we DO agree with you that this applies to ALL FATHERS.

Had you approached it and said "ya know, this message really applies to all fathers everywhere" and left out the "he's not talking about black fathers" it would not have sounded so defensive.

You seemed to have taken a great amount of offense, when all BH was doing was saying "look, here's more terrific stuff that Obama is doing" and i took offense to that tone.

If you want to see what im talking about, i urge to to read the comments on any of these videos found Here

The problem?
When some white people try to tell some black people what they feel the problem is - those 'some' black people lash back in a very angry manner. Don't believe me? Go read comments.

On the flip side
When some black people tell other black people the problem, "some" black people say "ITS EVERYONE'S PROBLEM, NOT JUST BLACK PEOPLE"

we know its everyone's problem
but they're talking about it being a black problem. Fix it int he black community, etc etc etc

I simply don't understand why this is so offensive.
I mean, i can see how one would be offended, if they said

"its offensive, because it singles out black people" well - yeah - it does. The Truth Hurts. The truth is, all fathers need to listen to it, i agree, but the other truth is that this applies to black fathers too. And its only when its specifically called "black problems" do "some" black people start talking about it.

Its no different than "some" white people who cross the street in order to not walk by a 'thuggish' looking black guy. They'll say "im not racist"
yeah - right. You are a scarred little white guy who does not have the respect it takes to walk by a black man without fear he'll snag your wallet.

Its the same god *snip* thing.

So instead of fighting the message because you think its being used wrongly - why not embrace the message, put your own spin on it, and make it better?

I really hope you're not going to frown upon me for saying all of this, i just really have a HUGE problem whenever someone sticks up for something solely based on skin color.

I am not calling you out, i am just saying that - FROM MY EXPERIENCES - people who do, what you've done in your opening response in this thread, are the same people who back up skin color blindly and say "that dont happen in my neighborhood" and i am not saying that you ARE one of these people. I am saying that the reason im so against the way in which you took a stance, is because it sounds all too familiar to me.

Its like the quiet town of 3000 people....there's suddenly a serial killer discovered there and they all say

"that doesnt happen here!!!"

It just did.
Its a fact you have to live with.

Just like white people have to live with the fact that we'll forever be labeled as the 'slave owner race' (put in a nutshell) despite the fact that American colonists didnt invent slavery.
They just took part in it.
It is stupid to defend slavery and say "WE WERENT THE FIRST"!!!!!
It doesnt matter what everyone else did in the context of "white american slave owners"

its the same thing when obama talks to black people about black problems

you just have to have a little lump in your throad, swallow it, and say "ya know....he's right"

this is just my opinion

i hope you wont hold it against me.


reply posted on 25-6-2008 @ 11:36 PM by HarlemHottie
Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
i just really have a HUGE problem whenever someone sticks up for something solely based on skin color.


Andrew,

You seem to believe you have some great insight into my personality. I assure you, that isn’t the case. You don’t know me, or my opinions, or else you wouldn’t have asked.

Whenever there’s a potentially ‘racial’ issue that I feel strongly about, I try to come up with a comparable, non-racial analogy, and see if I still feel the same way. Sometimes that exercise can serve to clarify things. Here’s an example, give it a shot.

Let’s say Obama gave a speech on Memorial Day, in front of an audience of older (WWII, Korea, Vietnam) vets. He might begin with the gratitude we all feel for those who sacrificed for us, he might mention particular issues faced by older vets, he might bring up the sometimes-different, sometimes-similar issues faced by younger vets (including those from the Gulf, Afghanistan, and Iraq Wars), and he might conclude with his plan to help all vets.

Now, I ask you, who was the intended subject of that speech? Was it older vets, younger vets, or all vets?

Similarly, imo, this speech was not solely intended for black fathers. There were, literally, two sentences in which he even mentions them. Referring to Bill Cosby won't change that.

As you can see, I’ve chosen to ignore your ad hominem attacks (“foaming at the mouth”), but I did want to address one more thing. Contrary to my list, I consider BH a friend, as I said earlier in this thread. We disagree (often ), but I have a great deal of respect for her willingness to engage in above-board debate on potentially contentious topics, and for her ability to synthesize new information. That said, I would never characterize her as “being silly”, and, believe me, if I ever behaved in such a manner, she's more than capable of handling it herself.


reply posted on 25-6-2008 @ 11:44 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by HarlemHottie


no, i dont "believe i know you"

i told you how your message was percieved.

its delivery and perception

if you wish your message to be percieved a certain way, then deliver it with the same idea in mind.
My 'foaming at the mouth' reference was not aimed as a personal insult towards you. It was speaking in terms of mental imagery. When i read your intial post, you seemed to be angry towards the notion that obama was talking about fathers.


To use your example of vets:

If he said

"we know that a lot of the problems faced by veterans today, are predominant in the older generation" and continued to talk about 'said problems' then yes - i'd say he was talking about old vets.

He singled out the older vets, he's talking about them.
Just because he chooses to compare them with younger vets, doesnt mean he's necessarily talking about ALL vets, it just means he's talking TO the older vets, ABOUT the probelms they face, regardless of anyone else who would share the same problem.


where i am coming from

If you're talking to a room full of cats
and you're talking about problems that cats face
and you say "dogs face the same problems too"

it doesnt mean you werent talking TO the cats.

I think you're distorting the point im trying to make to you.

Nobody is saying this is a "black problem" only. So why are you acting as if we were?


reply posted on 25-6-2008 @ 11:48 PM by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by Andrew E. Wiggin


In this post you first say

Obama is tailoring his speech to a black audience - i agree with you
but you go on to say that the speech is intended for all people regardless of color - i agree with you.

But your first reply was

Um... that's not what he said. I had this same conversation at a black political blog earlier today, and they were all mad at me.


Um....that's not what he said.

Yes it is. But he NEVER said that it only applied to black people. Obama didnt say it, BH didnt say it, i didnt say it.

so thats why im so dern confused




furthermore: Why can't i talk about bill cosby? Just because YOU disagree with him doesnt make him any less credible.

He is a black celebrity, many years wiser than us all, and he's talking about racial problems. Most of which *I* agree with.

So to say i can't talk about Cosby is certainly unfair.

[edit on 25-6-2008 by Andrew E. Wiggin]
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