Intelligent people less likely to believe in God

You know I was not going to address this conversation with you onlyhurtsu but my own minds resolve often overwhelms a choice initially made and I do not think I can keep from at least exploring the avenue of approach that Dawkins has left for me on the logic track, especially as you have introduced the meme theory

As Dawkins uses Darwininan evolution as an example to the meme, specifically contending that memes (being an idea, principal, etc, etc that is passed down over time) fall into the realm of natural selection and that weak ideas will propagate as an inferior species and would being less successful in their reproductive process and become extinct, while others survive spread and mutate. Certainly in the religious process we have seen mutation through the reformation and the Church as a whole accepting scientific ideas which are beyond reproof (Heliocentric theory, the atom, the elliptical orbit etc,etc) Of course these ideas do not change the original idea of belief in a creator or higher power just the misconceptions that man might have created about their creator; if for nothing else because they are searching for a way that things are, but overall this belief in a higherpower has shown to follow the so-called strong path of the meme. The other thing is people often disavow the religious process by one that is said to hold down mans ability or limits him/her in someway and that other ways of life tend to liberate man in his ability to do what feels good or exerts a certain freedom to man, but the study of memes shows that often times (and this is according to dawkins) that memes which seem to benefit their host the most do not often survive.

The question I pose to you is in some sort of fashion the language you use in your posts seems to shine light favorable in the doctors theme of article but in reality isnt the belief in God just as strong as ever, do you think this meme thing really supports what it is you are trying to say, this is not a tort to challenge you this is an actual question....because as you have cited dawkins in your posts you have also clearly stated that these were not your ideas but those that came out of the origin of Dawkins.

My IQ is 152.
It's easy to make a blanket statement such as "smart people don't believe in God" by changing your sample audience.

Too bad that knowledge of science and being a total egghead actually made me realize the impossibility of sentient life in our universe without God's interference and occasional nudge.

+ remember theres a difference between being smart and being intelligent. Given the choice I'd pick being smart over being intelligent.

Sorry, seems to me an oxymoron to say "Intelligent people" don't believe in god. I would say the term is more like "Brutish, delusional people" don't believe in the higher power(s).

reply to post by ProveIt


Care to elaborate? Not sure how you can be sure of such a thing. With an IQ of 152 I'd think you would be more open to other possibilities. Saying "there must be a God to give us a nudge" is as much as a bold-faced guess (if not more) as any other theory.

Where Are You?

Why Are You Here?

Answers to questions like these can be found, but if you're looking for a "Belief System"... I don't know.

Is religion a SYSTEM based on a Belief? Yes, but, Yes, But, Yes, But......
Do you think of religion as a belief system?

I'd prefer that you don't believe it. And I'll just call it Kabbalah.
Well........ (perceivingreality.com... )

The answer is in how one perceives reality and NOT in any religion at all.

From the
Telegraph article

...But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.

"Linking religious belief and intelligence in this way could reflect a dangerous trend, developing a simplistic characterisation of religion as primitive, which - while we are trying to deal with very complex issues of religious and cultural pluralism - is perhaps not the most helpful response," he said.

Isn't this just proving that Professor Richard Lynn (whoever he may be?!) has got a point?

Aren't these 'complex issues' just complex because of (global) stupidity and 'faith' in gods...Or am I wrong? All 'religious fanatics'...Can they be called intelligent? Please...Then I could be called stupid...:worried:

I think especially 'blind faith' surely isn't intelligent. When for example a father teaches his son to live his life 'following' the same faith he also had to live by and so on and so on. Whatever the reason may be...Blinded by faith for centuries!

Even if a god was really there I think this would be silly...Don't you think?

Personally I think you could call 'someone who prays to nothing' (and in some religions even 5 times a day!) rather stupid. However this may impact his or her life. Be it positive or negative...Either way you could 'also' call it stupid.

Just like 'them believers' call me stupid for not believing. Of which suddenly I think 'they didn't even study this, they just think so'!

Also I wonder which forms of progress all these religious dogmas have slowed down or even stopped!? Were would we as humans be without a history of religion? I really wonder...

Silently I wish all theories from Erich von Daniken to be true...


P.S. I recently saw a little piece somewhat related to this subject on MEMRI (Middel East Media Research Institute):
Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan Blasts Islam

reply to post by kcire


The Bible has a false God. Not the True God.

The True God is caring and is passion. He is Love.

Now I know you will want to ask me for proof. I can not give you proof that you do not want. It is simple.

Religions are bad and control groups. Most everyone agrees. They Teach a false God. You do not need a religion or priest, father, bishop what ever to have a relationship with God or for there to be a God.
You are putting him in a Box. If God can create life and the Universe imagine what else he could do.

I have had my expiriance with God and because I am following him and choose to know he is there and trying to bring others to light and telling the Truth he has assured me his protection. I will be a leader of the New Free world.

You will know me.

I met a guy once that was 100% certain that he could fly. He is no longer with us. Of course, you don't need to listen to this because you just know it to be true. The same way that people that don't believe you know that they are right.

People that don't believe in God don't know 100% if thier right. Everything "they" know is based on objectives and speculations. Athiests haven't tried to look for God, so they can't say "God does not exist" if they havent looked for themselves.

Thats just like with your guy who said that he can fly and is no longer with us. How would you feel if I told you that I dont believe that guy ever existed???

I never saw that guy who thought he could fly. And I'm supposed to believe you that he exists????

Now if you take me to his grave, introduce me to his family, his kids, pictures, yearbook, and news articles...then little by little I may begin to believe the guy who thought he could fly maybe does exist.

Thats what I offer athiests. I know where God is and I know what spiritual excercises to perform in order to realize God. Unless you follow the steps you wont see God and in turn dont believe.

Unless I follow your steps....I dont believe the guy who thought he could fly exists either.

Paradox??? No...common sense!!!!!

reply to post by uknow_me72


You may not want to hear this, seeing as how you hate religions, but you sound just like them.

They same most of the same things you just said...

Originally posted by DaleGribble
reply to post by LostNemesis

 

this statement could be argued from any angle.

those of a scientfic mind are in fact closed minded because they are not willing to except that there could be devine creation and anything not in their little science book is false.

so nanny nanny boo boo!!!!!

I disagree

Scientists dont' say that anything which isn't in their "little science book" is false. That "little science book" is based off of empirical observation, and it continues to grow with whatever new observation that was previously unknown to us. I wouldn't really call that close-minded T_T.

Religions like Christianity, however, assume that there is a divine god watching over us all, despite the obvious fact that we don't know # about the universe (even our current knowledge barely scratches the surface).

nanny nanny boo boo my ***...

EDIT: now that I look at it, I failed to notice that this thread has 16 pages (I responded to a post on the 1st page). If there's any unspoken rule against responding to age-old posts, then my bad

[edit on 16-6-2008 by minister_of_loco]

reply to post by Quazga


I would say that intelligence is only part of it.

I've seen studies that show that levels of education tend on average to be inversely proportional to religious belief. That is, the more educated you are, the less likely strong religious beliefs.

And that probably isn't just it either.

There's intelligence. There's education. And.... environment.

My guess is that those who grow up in an environment where curiosity and questions are encouraged, and religion isn't force-fed to them from day one, are more likely to decide that there is no evidence supporting religious beliefs or gods.

That's the way it was for me, anyway. Intelligent, educated, studied about evolution, geology, astronomy and the universe - and my parents, while seeing that I was exposed to religion, did not push it or try to force me to accept it. As a result, I was better able to make my own decisions and form my own views on the matter.

Originally posted by dominicus
People that don't believe in God don't know 100% if thier right. Everything "they" know is based on objectives and speculations. Athiests haven't tried to look for God, so they can't say "God does not exist" if they havent looked for themselves.

Flawed reasoning. You assume that atheists assume that god does not exist, and therefore don't look for him.

A false assumption, as there are plenty of atheists who became atheists by doing just that. Atheists who became atheists after reading the Bible.

You can become an atheist just as easily by investigating a religion as you can by studying the world around us.

I'm reminded of a scene from my favorite TV series ever, Babylon 5. Created by a guy who became an atheist by, as he said, reading the Bible cover to cover.

One of the characters, an alien called G'Kar, has become something of a spiritual leader among his people. He's speaking to a group of them, and the conversation goes like this.

Follower - 'What is truth - and what is God?'
G'Kar - "You don't want the answer to that."
Follower - "Yes, I do."

G'Kar - "If I take a lamp and shine it on a wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding.

"Too often we assume that the light on the wall is god - but the light is not the goal of the search. It is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the sense of revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing.

"What we perceive as god is the byproduct of our search for god. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished - not understanding that it comes from us.

"Sometimes we stand in front of the light, and assume that we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or, we turn to look at our shadow, and assume that all is darkness.

"If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose - which is to use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty, and in all its flaws, and in so doing better understand the world around us."

Consciousness is evolving. Ideas (thoughts) create reality. What was intelligence one thousand years ago? What was the idea of god in ancient times? Certainly those ideas of the past are not the same as those of today. The nature of the universe is change and change is evolution. This seems to be a universal law pointed to by the nature of all that is. We seem to be on a path sometimes moving forward, sometimes standing still and sometimes moving backwards. Our thoughts bring forth questions such as god and intelligence and consciousness changes or evolves and as a result our reality changes. Perhaps we are the god as all seem to be connected in a universal sea of energy. Intelligent people should know that with each answered question comes more unanswered ones and this notion idicates a process of creation or evolution. We may realize some day that we all are cocreators of all that is. Intelligence is not productive unless it is guided by love and compassion in which case intelligence becomes wisdom.

That's because the more intelligent a person is the more egotistical he becomes.
Some peoples egos are so huge that they don't or want to believe that there's something bigger than themselves in the universe.

One could say....We are in a serious De-Evolution. Look around! Travel a bit! Take notes and wonder! Man came from Ape...the forbidden fruit a banana...and for some rational minds Man is god (ouch!) I hope the Great One didnt listen to that, but nearly everyone is an expert.

It is sick to keep this or any crime committed in the years since 9-11 secret. We are a democracy (rep republic) and their should be no type of hindering of justice by our govt against people who volunteered to go into a war setting to do the right thing.

I wish you open and free disclosure without it we are only one step closer to those thousand points of light and new world order being shoved down oiur throats by our elected officials.

once you label yourself as an "Intellectual elite", you instantly lose the respect of the masses.

Enjoy being hated by all!

Sorry, but I don't like it when people just say "HAHA, I'm more educated and therefore right. You lose and everything you believe in is wrong because I have money to afford education"


Well a big clap-clap-clap to you, sounded through the empty stadium of people who give a crap.

As I recall, it is the elites and their "I know more therefor I'm right" attitude that results in such stupidity. Go ahead, call yourself smarter. See how the masses feel.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by Gorman91]

"university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else."

I don't have a problem accepting this statement. Those approved of by the "Orders" they went there to enter into should by their very natures be opposed to God by the time they have shown themselves worthy to be accepted into their chosen order.

The assumption that this represents higher intelligence is probably a euphemism for saying they have received a higher education in the things they ought to believe.

But at the end of the day it changes nothing.
"It might be the Devil, it might be the Lord, but you gotta serve somebody" - Dylan

Originally posted by ProveIt
My IQ is 152.
It's easy to make a blanket statement such as "smart people don't believe in God" by changing your sample audience.

Too bad that knowledge of science and being a total egghead actually made me realize the impossibility of sentient life in our universe without God's interference and occasional nudge.

+ remember theres a difference between being smart and being intelligent. Given the choice I'd pick being smart over being intelligent.

What many could easily claim as god's "occasional nudge" can just as easily be argued coincidence. Perhaps even fate (although fate without god). There isn't a communication between god and ourselves in which we are able to determine what is actually the doing of god and what is not. That is judgement based on observance. Judgement is relative to opinion and free will, therefore anything one might observe is only as important as one makes it out to be. If someone really really wants to believe in god, eventually coincidence will be an observed justification that god exist, when that coincidence doesn't exactly mean anything about god whatsoever.

What I'm getting at is that where the human mind is involved, people eventually come to their own conclusions without ALL the facts just as long as there is enough information to have an opinion. In a world with no direct or indirect sign of god whatsoever, people will always believe in God because of free will and the fallability of human judgement.

-ChriS

[edit on 16-6-2008 by BlasteR]

reply to post by ProveIt


What kind of IQ did you take?

I should take one some time.