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posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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I don't claim to know what caused the 3 WTC buildings to collapse but one thing I am sure of is that it was not from the impact or fire from the airliners.

Our government claims that heat from aviation fuel weakened the structure and caused the floors to pancake down on each other. This happened in an exactly identical fashion on all three buildings.

I personally have thirty years in heavy and industrial commercial construction. I have seen, first hand , what happens to structural steel components when they are subjected to high temperatures. If the temperature is high enough and the fire burns long enough to cause the columns or beams to fail, they become soft.Next they twist and contort into the most unusual shapes you can imagine. If and when a structural steel column fails it does not do so along its strongest point which is its vertical axis.


The WTC structural core columns were 2feet by 5feet wide and 5inches thick. Additionally they would have been covered with a fire- rated material that would have taken at least 90 minutes to burn off. Also the buildings had a sprinkler system that would have contained,isolated and reduced the temperature of the fire.

Even if the building did pancake several stories of the central structural core would have remained intact. Instead we had a neat pile of debris.

The engineers and architects who designed these magnificent buildings designed them to withstand an impact from an airliner and the sub sequential fire.

Ok, for arguments sake lets say I am a nut case and don't know what I am talking about. Here are some basic facts that can be verified by anyone with a computer:

1. In the history of the world no steel reinforced concrete structure has ever collapsed due to fire. The only causes I know of are earthquake, bad engineering or explosives. The statistical probability of three of the best engineered buildings in the world failing in the exact same manner are astronomical.
2. If no explosives or cutting agents were used why did FEMA find almost toxic
levels of ammonia at the sight?
3.If no explosives or cutting agents were used why did firemen find molten pools of iron in the garage levels more than two days after the collapse?
4.Prior to the collapse what caused windows to explode and debris to be ejected below the impacted floors?
5.Prior to the collapse what caused th giant plume of dust to be ejected from the lower levels?
6.How is it that humans can survive a level of heat that a 5 inch thick column can't? There are plenty of videos of people standing in the windows on and above the impacted floors.
7.How is it that some of the structural steel members appear as though they were cut at a precise angle and still smoldering after the collapse?
8.If no explosives were used what explains the detonations heard and documented by NYC fireman and police officers?

Any one of these questions is cause for serious alarm but put together they point to a different cause other than an airliner impact. I would love to hear an explanation to the cause or origin of these aforementioned issues.




posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 03:52 PM
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Why is this thread under close scrutiny ?

Is this guy a known troll ?

Does someone disagree with what he is saying ?

Are there people on this site who have an agenda to keep truth from as many people as possible ?

Sometimes my mistrust of people is justified.



posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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It's not this specific thread that is under close scrutiny but the entire 9/11 conspiracies forum.

The reason we do this is simply because it's a very passionate topic which at times can devolve into flame wars and a lot of off topic discussion in the thread.

That's really the only agenda.

Spiderj



posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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Sorry, I do not post links well.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That's a chunk of steel.



posted on Jun, 7 2008 @ 05:44 PM
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1. In the history of the world no steel reinforced concrete structure has ever collapsed due to fire. The only causes I know of are earthquake, bad engineering or explosives. The statistical probability of three of the best engineered buildings in the world failing in the exact same manner are astronomical.

2. If no explosives or cutting agents were used why did FEMA find almost toxic levels of ammonia at the sight?

3.If no explosives or cutting agents were used why did firemen find molten pools of iron in the garage levels more than two days after the collapse?

4.Prior to the collapse what caused windows to explode and debris to be ejected below the impacted floors?

5.Prior to the collapse what caused th giant plume of dust to be ejected from the lower levels?

6.How is it that humans can survive a level of heat that a 5 inch thick column can't? There are plenty of videos of people standing in the windows on and above the impacted floors.

7.How is it that some of the structural steel members appear as though they were cut at a precise angle and still smoldering after the collapse?

8.If no explosives were used what explains the detonations heard and documented by NYC fireman and police officers?


I will try to answer your questions - problem is with many "truthers" is
ignore anything which does not comport with their fantasies...

1. If building had fallen by itself that would be one thing - you are
ignoring fact that buildings were impacted by large aircraft with heavy fuel
loads. Plane impacts inflicting massive damage to building supports and
systems (elevators, stairs, sprinkler/standpipe plumbing). Also started
fires on multiple floors. Most high rise fires are aggresiely fought - at
WTC do to damage FDNY could not reach fire locations and if could
damage to plumbing would prevent necessary water reaching fires.

2. Ammonia - have not heard of this, but are other sources of ammonia
from damaged refrigeration systems or sewage (urine contains ammonia)
which can account for it

3. Molten iron - one of the great myths which is consistently recirculated
Fires in debris pile burned for more than 3 months after 9/11. Recovery
workers found pockets of fire where temps (from thermal imagers)
were over 1000 C (1800 F), found steel beams heated to glowing red
which media idiots (term is redudant) distorted to "molten iron"

4. Windows - as building becomes unstable and starts to shift, things will
be forced out of plumb - doors jammed or not longer closing, windows
popped out of frames. Ever seem windshield popped out of car following
accident, same thing - frame distorted by force

5. Dust cloud - as top floors of building started collapse acted as piston
in cyclinder forcing air ahead of it as floors crushed down. Dust from
broken concrete and sheet rock forced out of openings

6. Heat - not all areas in impact zone were burning with same intensity,
some were not on fire and relatively cool. Fuel load of aircraft would be
dumped far into building, area near impact hole have little jet fuel to
stoke fires. Also wind blowing in would force fires toward other side
of building away from initial impact hole. Many of those you say
"survived" were forced to jump from heat and smoke.

7. Steel cut - reason columns were precisely cut is that what was done
during recovery/demolition phase. Ironworkers with torches and thermal
lances cut the steel into small managable pieces to be picked up by
cranes to be taken away.

8. Explosion noises - Many of firemen/police said heard "explosions",
unfortunately term has become generic for any load sudden noise
whether caused by explosives or not. After recent crane collapses in
NYC many witnesses decribe "explosions" as steel snapped and crashed
to street. During building collapse plenty of noises could be interpeted
as explosions....


Hope this helps



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 09:03 AM
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posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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This happened in an exactly identical fashion on all three buildings


Not quite. WTC 7 was different.




The WTC structural core columns were 2feet by 5feet wide and 5inches thick. Additionally they would have been covered with a fire- rated material that would have taken at least 90 minutes to burn off. Also the buildings had a sprinkler system that would have contained,isolated and reduced the temperature of the fire.


Ideally, the fireproofing would be okay for 90 minutes. However, we already know from engineering studies that BOTH towers no longer had intact coatings on the columns/trusses. (thank you Discovery Channel for showing the videos taken during those studies) That was PRIOR to 9/11. So, on the morning of 9/11, we know that the brittle fire proofing was no longer intact...and that was BEFORE the airliners crashed into them. So instead of having 90 minutes of protecting, there were large areas of the supports directly exposed to the fires.

As for the sprinkler system, how much pressure do you think there was after they were compromised by the airliner impacts????




Even if the building did pancake several stories of the central structural core would have remained intact. Instead we had a neat pile of debris


Neat pile of debris? Have you LOOKED at the photos and the damage the surrounding buildings suffered? Neat? In addition, watch the videos, you will see parts of the central core standing as the rest of the towers fell.....before they fell as well.




The engineers and architects who designed these magnificent buildings designed them to withstand an impact from an airliner and the sub sequential fire.


Shall we discuss the human arrogance in this statement? And past engineering failures?



In the history of the world no steel reinforced concrete structure has ever collapsed due to fire


And until 9/11, none had had a jetliner slam into them at high speed or had another building collapse into them (WTC 7)




3.If no explosives or cutting agents were used why did firemen find molten pools of iron in the garage levels more than two days after the collapse?


First it was pools of molten steel....now its pools of iron....I wish someone would make up their mind and program the CTs accordingly. Most likely it was aluminum that was found.




4.Prior to the collapse what caused windows to explode and debris to be ejected below the impacted floors?


Ever hear of air pressure?




6.How is it that humans can survive a level of heat that a 5 inch thick column can't? There are plenty of videos of people standing in the windows on and above the impacted floors.


Yes, on the side of the building that was facing the wind (which would blow the fire behind them. I can find pictures that show the opposite sides of the towers burning fiercely........




8.If no explosives were used what explains the detonations heard and documented by NYC fireman and police officers?


Floor wax, floor stripper, window/glass cleaners, gas pipes, first aid oxygen bottles.......there are a bunch of things in an office building that would go boom when exposed to heat/flame.



posted on Jun, 8 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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For the towers being designed to survive aircraft impacts, I do believe I read or watched somewhere that the designers didn't actually do a formal study into it.

More of a side calculation than anything else. White paper studies are just that, only good on paper. Unless the engineers actually fly a scale to-mass airplane into a scale replica of the WTC towers to test their paper calculations, you have to take it with a grain of salt.

They didn't have the sophisticated computer systems we do now to have done a more accurate analysis. Even then, you can't program in every last detail. A lot of assumptions are made just to give the program something to start with.

As much as humans can plan something, the oddities of the real world will always surprise us. One example is that Zip Feed Mill Tower that was supposed to be demolished in a controlled demolition (I'm sure you've seen the videos). I'm sure the technicians and engineers planned everything according to the books and once they blew the charges, the bottom floors of the mill collapsed as planned, but it somehow still remained standing, though at a severe tilt.

www.youtube.com...

The point is, just because a white paper study says one thing, doesn't mean that it'll definitely happen in the real world.




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