The Biggest Catch 22 in U.S. History

Thanks for the link, Skadi.

Cool Hand, the foreign policy "logic" you support is sheer lunacy. This swaggering style backed up by infantile non-military experience is what has gotten us bogged down in a guerrilla war in Iraq. The real experts forecast this before the invasion. But what did those old warhorses know, anyway?

China is our greatest looming enemy and it has everything to do with remain oil reserves. Their economy is exploding and so too is their need for oil. There is a finite number of reserves left on this planet and somebody's gonna get 'em.

As for Chavez, if we invaded Venezuela it would be idiotic. It would be more guerrilla warfare. And it would never end. Is that what you think we should do, Cool Hand? You think that's smart foreign policy? The world is already scared of the USA - why? Because we have certified lunatics running our foreign policy.

If you do a cursory study of our involvements in "wars" since the Spanish American war, you'll find that our involvement was a reaction to a manufactured threat. It's all about greed. Wars for profit. We have no business sending our troops all over the world. As Skadi said, they are there to protect our country - not the world.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Originally posted by Leveller
Just a question.
What would happen to the oil producing countries in the Middle East and elsewhere in the developing world if the West did use a different power source?

Exactly!!!!!!!!! The best possible outcome! With the west no longer needing the middle east and having to kiss ass or play political games there, the middle east would be faced with a serious dilema: pull thier heads out of the dark age ass they have been buried in, or join the modern world.

There's a massive problem with that. Economically, the Middle East would be totally shafted. This would create even more instability, more extremism and more danger to the rest of us. Modernising would take decades - they would have to start their manufacturing bases literally from nothing. Add to that, the fact that these countries would be trying to join an already competitive market where the West has a massive headstart and you can see that buying their oil is the only thing that keeps thier economies afloat.
Maybe in the long term they could pull something together, but the short term consequences could be disastrous.

Middle Eastern societies are pretty aggressive in their nature. Do you think that they would sit back and starve whilst the rest of us eat hamburger?

The title of this thread is accurate. There is a massive Catch22. You can't just expect to stop buying Middle East oil and expect the world to be a more peaceful place because of it. Their societies have to be taught to be less reliant on one source of income over a long period of time. Something which most of their present regimes refuse to even contemplate.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Thanks for the link, Skadi.

Cool Hand, the foreign policy "logic" you support is sheer lunacy. This swaggering style backed up by infantile non-military experience is what has gotten us bogged down in a guerrilla war in Iraq. The real experts forecast this before the invasion. But what did those old warhorses know, anyway?

What real experts are you talking about?

China is our greatest looming enemy and it has everything to do with remain oil reserves. Their economy is exploding and so too is their need for oil. There is a finite number of reserves left on this planet and somebody's gonna get 'em.

What makes you think that China is our greatest looming enemy? Have they recently demonstrated any hostile intent? Have they invaded anyone recently?

As for Chavez, if we invaded Venezuela it would be idiotic. It would be more guerrilla warfare. And it would never end. Is that what you think we should do, Cool Hand? You think that's smart foreign policy? The world is already scared of the USA - why? Because we have certified lunatics running our foreign policy.

Can you people not read? I never said that is what we should do, I merely stated an option. Personally I think we should just let this guy sqwuak and bitch and eventually he will shut up again. But that is just my opinion.

If you do a cursory study of our involvements in "wars" since the Spanish American war, you'll find that our involvement was a reaction to a manufactured threat. It's all about greed. Wars for profit. We have no business sending our troops all over the world. As Skadi said, they are there to protect our country - not the world.

So, take WWII for example. What was the manufacuted threat that got our invlovement into it? For that matter, who maufactured it?

Leveller, as I'm sure you're aware, a country like Saudi Arabia - for example - has little or no other economic avenues/resources to cash in on. It's very dangerous. I don't advocate cutting off ties with them; but we do need to begin investing massively in alternative forms of energy here at home. It's a major national security issue and doesn't have to be. Greed rules that. (Military/big oil)

Cool Hand, I don't mean to dis you, but you seem to have just crawled out of cave educationally. This stuff is well documented. Go run a google search on something like 'pretext for war.' Read Operation Northwoods as a start.. I'll even give you the link. Then sit and consider just what exactly you're reading. It ought to shock the hell out of you at what our government, what any government is capable of. Lose the naivete'.

Operation Northwoods

Friendly Fire
Book: U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba

By David Ruppe



N E W Y O R K, May 1 � In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.
abcnews.go.com...




In his new expos� of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled �Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba� was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake �Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington,� including �sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated),� faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a �Remember the Maine� incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods �may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government.�
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Justification for US Military Intervention in Cuba [includes cover memoranda], March 13, 1962, TOP SECRET, 15 pp.
www.gwu.edu...

That's an excellent place to start.

Leveler, youre missing the point.

Shafting the Middle East is exactly the very benefit Im talking about. They have had thier opportunity. For decades, they have made fortunes off of thier oil reserves, yet have done nothing to modernize and advance and diversify thier economies with that money. Instead, they chose to use the money to fund thier idiodic superstitous warfare. They have been given thier chance.

Cutting them off from thier main source of income also pretty much kills thier threat level. Without oil, I ask again, where are they gonna get the money to buy weapons? Fund terrorists? yeah, the whole region will be thrown into chaos, but who cares? They have had ample opportunities over centuries to get thier # together, and have chose not to. They still wanna play blood feud. So, let them deal with the concequences, I dont care about the middle east. Maybe tourism might hold em afloat.

But the survival of the middle east is small compared to the need for home made energy, saving the environment and dealing with the damage done globally by petroluem products, and ending decades of burdensome warfare and diplomacy with people who havent advanced to fuedalism.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
But the survival of the middle east is small compared to the need for home made energy, saving the environment and dealing with the damage done globally by petroluem products, and ending decades of burdensome warfare and diplomacy with people who havent advanced to fuedalism.

Definitely.

Cool Hand, I don't mean to dis you, but you seem to have just crawled out of cave educationally. This stuff is well documented. Go run a google search on something like 'pretext for war.' Read Operation Northwoods as a start.. I'll even give you the link. Then sit and consider just what exactly you're reading. It ought to shock the hell out of you at what our government, what any government is capable of. Lose the naivete'.


You are comparing thinigs that happened in the 60's (with a much different threat) with what is going on today, and claim that history is repeating itself? Is that correct?

Originally posted by COOL HAND


You are comparing thinigs that happened in the 60's (with a much different threat) with what is going on today, and claim that history is repeating itself? Is that correct?

Good God. You really are 14, aren't you. You don't even understand the ol' maxim those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Skadi's right, you don't know the faintest thing about issues that are old news. You need to get up to speed before you start debating people who actually have life-experience in these matters discussed. Otherwise, you're adding nothing to the debate. We don't have time to give you basic history 101. Sorry.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by COOL HAND


You are comparing thinigs that happened in the 60's (with a much different threat) with what is going on today, and claim that history is repeating itself? Is that correct?

Good God.

You really are 14, aren't you. You don't even understand the ol' maxim those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Skadi's right, you don't know the faintest thing about issues that are old news. You need to get up to speed before you start debating people who actually have life-experience in these matters discussed. Otherwise, you're adding nothing to the debate. We don't have time to give you basic history 101. Sorry.

Once again you cannot debate the issue so you try to poke holes into my experiences. Guess I should just throw that History degree of mine out cause you know so much more than me. Guess my experiences do not count for anything. Man, you sure showed me.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by COOL HAND


Once again you cannot debate the issue so you try to poke holes into my experiences. Guess I should just throw that History degree of mine out cause you know so much more than me. Guess my experiences do not count for anything. Man, you sure showed me.

Uh..

It's pretty hard to discuss issues with someone who doesn't even understand the issues. Like Skadi said, when you've gone and done your homework, we can talk.

ECK,
It occurs to me that you have yet to answer a single question that I have asked you today with a real answer that has evidence to back it up. Any reason why?

What questions?

If you'd like to communicate reasonably regarding this thread's subject, state your questions here, now. I will answer them. Otherwise, go try and get someone else off track with your ignorance. I've tried to help you, but there is no helping you. You refuse to see anything you are not told on tv or in a newspaper. It's pretty sad.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
What questions?

If you'd like to communicate reasonably regarding this thread's subject, state your questions here, now. I will answer them. Otherwise, go try and get someone else off track with your ignorance. I've tried to help you, but there is no helping you. You refuse to see anything you are not told on tv or in a newspaper. It's pretty sad.

Here they are again:
You are comparing things that happened in the 60's (with a much different threat) with what is going on today, and claim that history is repeating itself? Is that correct? Never gave me a real answer.

Still waiting to hear from the experts.

Insert answer here


Eagerly awaiting your responses.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
What questions?

This is ridiculous.

Here they are again:
You are comparing things that happened in the 60's (with a much different threat) with what is going on today, and claim that history is repeating itself? Is that correct?

Read Operation Northwoods. Then you will understand how very much it applies to everything happening today.

Those experts would be top military officials (in uniform) - you know, like the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Shelby, for one, intelligence analysts, veterans of the Vietnam, Korean and Gulf wars... need anymore?

You have a lot of reading to do to get up to speed. Every issue you've stumbled over is old as dirt.

Read Operation Northwoods. Then you will understand how very much it applies to everything happening today.

I read the link that you so "graciously" provided me with. It was a load of crap. It was a plan, nothing else. Are you going to tell me that you have never, ever, experienced planning something that did not come to pass?


Those experts would be top military officials (in uniform) - you know, like the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Shelby, for one, intelligence analysts, veterans of the Vietnam, Korean and Gulf wars... need anymore?

Where were they mentioned in the link? It only talked about the CJCS who was not given a second term.

You have a lot of reading to do to get up to speed. Every issue you've stumbled over is old as dirt.

And every piece of evidence that you have pointed out has been riddled with holes. Show me some certifiable proof and I will glad read and contemplate it. Till then stop basing your argument on information that is highly subjective.

Forget it Cool Hand. You wouldn't know what a google search for information was or a government source if it bit you on the a$$.

Stay in the dark.

And get back on the subject of this thread or find another one to sabotage.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Forget it Cool Hand. You wouldn't know what a google search for information was or a government source if it bit you on the a$$.

Good one ECK. You can't prove your point so you just rely on lame insults. Yeah, you are so much smarter than me. Wow.

Stay in the dark.

With you right next to me.

And get back on the subject of this thread or find another one to sabotage.

I am still on the thread. You are the one who keeps bringing up irrelevant tangents that he cannot prove.

Please stay on topic!
I don't want both of you (COOL HAND & EastCoastKid) starting another war on this thread also!!!!

[Edited on 9-3-2004 by DJDOHBOY]