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Originally posted by orangetom1999
reply to post by Blitzkreigen
*** Thanks Orangetom1999 for replying to this thread.
I wanted to take the time to answer all your questions before I responded.
I have not figured out the QUOTES thing properly yet, so my replies to you will be initiated with a *** to make it read properly. ***
I understand what you are desiring to do ..volume verses pressure. I have seen the same in this shipyard..in the pumps used to lower the water in the drydocks. High volume verses high pressure. However these are like big 440 volt type pumps. I think in a 12 volt system your pump diameter and suction capability are limited.
*** Yes that is the major problem right now. ( Volume versus Pressure )
We are trying to both FLOOD a Garden Area quickly, and with little power use, even using gravity feed after the flow starts.
The Garden is uphill first,( 5 to 10 feet depending on location) then downhill a few feet below that at the edge of the first row.
We Do not have City Power there. We do have a Generator.
We have 12 Volt Pumps ( x 3 ) 110 Volt Pumps ( 12 or more ) and 220 volt pumps ( X 6 or more ).
I work in the industry and have saved all these pumps from other jobs and upgrades. We did Purchase the 12 volt pumps and some specialized 110 volt SUMP pumps for a well at another location 30 feet deep.
We wanted to Start "BACKWARDS" with no City Power, but ability to water a Large area, effeciently and with Solar and Wind Power. ( 12 and 24 volt )
We have not had to STACK the 12 volt pumps yet, simply because we can allow TIME to do its thing with low flow and slow gravity feed.
Actually, it puts out about 1/2 the volume of a garden hose , when the pump is on. Volume Only... wont pressurize with a nozzle or sprayer.
The 110 volt sump pumps and above water level POOL PUMPS definately put out a LOT more VOLUME, with the GEN running.
We are up to 1 and 1/2 HP with the above ground pumps, and up to 1 HP with the 110 volt SUMP pump.
The 240 volt pumps have not been wired with the generator adapter plug yet, but they are 2 HP, 3 Hp and 5 Hp respectively.
The 5 HP will be our FIRE PUMP, connected with 3" PVC and "Stansions" woth 100 feet of FIRE HOSE connectd to them at all times. ****
I am thinking you may have to parallel two or more of the biggest volume pumps to get the job done. This takes quite a while to get properly staged into place with all the parts and fittings...batterys.
**** I really do agree with you here. We have all the parts, fittings, cords, Plug Ends, Watertight connectors, heat shrink, tape, interconnects, batteries, stage connectors, fuses etc...
It still takes a LOT of time to get it right.
Right now everything is set up "TEMP" with above ground flexible hoses, ( Suction and Discharge), run amock everywhere like an octopus. We can interconnect differant pumps to the saem plumbing to check out volume and pressure and experiment.
When we finalize everything and do PVC, it will all flow much better, and be out of sight and permenant.
Stacking the 12 volt pumps in stages is interesting. I'm starting to run into a pipe size proiblem already with 1 1/4 inch flex well pipe.
I want to go at least 2 inches.. if not 3 for the 240 volt pumps. ***
I am wondering if your losses are to great to use battery to an Inverter and then AC pumps?? Not sure what the current drain would be converting DC back to AC in a inverter..and then run a AC pump?? Would this work or would you need a pure sine wave?? I dont think most inverters make a pure sine wave.
*** They do make pure sign wave inverters, but they are about twice as much as modified sine wave ones. I really dont think that the pump motors need pure sign wave.
The loss is at LEAST 10 % with a high effeciency inverter.
There is NO CHOICE though, if you want to run 110 volt pumps with no GEN set or City Power.
These pumps 110 volt 1 1/2 Hp Pull about 16 AMPS. Obviously not Energy Effecient, but they were GIMME pumps and I cant complain.
Going to 240 volts will drop that to 8 for a 3 Hp.
Starting Loads are the issue, and once the Motor Starts, it runs at less power and amps.
I'm eventually going to be hooking up a 3000 Watt RUN 6000 watt START inverter, with Heavy cable and large banks of Lead.
I dont forsee any problem starting a 110 volt pump even at 30 amps COMBINED load for all 110 volt items at the same time...
The Wind and Solar will charge the banks of lead, and we will have to be effecient and regulate our useage based upon the sun and wind input. ***
Out Of room.. see next post...
Originally posted by hinky
A little info for pump 101.
I have no clue about 12 volt pumps or 24 volt pumps but I do know much about gasoline, diesel, and natural gas powered along with large electric pumps that can pump up to 25000 GPM. Size does not matter in this regard, the principals are the same.
0 head means no hose, pipe, etc; of any kind. Pump is discharging to open discharge on the pump body. Head pressure is also including the suction side as you can have a positive pressure on the suction which is added to the pressure rating of the pump. No pump can pump water from more than 33 feet of suction. There are scientific reasons for this involving atmospheric pressure and the weight of water. So the suction side can both add or subtract from the rated head pressure on the pump.
You need to figure your head pressure. Even the pipe/hose has friction which adds a surprising amount of friction, not even adding in the 5 foot elevation you mentioned. Don't forget the suction side which was previously mentioned.
You need to look at the TDH rating (Total Dynamic Head) pressure rating for the application you need. Once you know what your friction loss is, you can then figure your GPH capacity; then and only then can you see what horsepower you need for the pump.
There are charts for Hazen-Williams coefficients which will help you figure the friction loss from type and length of pipe used and fittings loss. Some people prefer the DArcy-Weisbach formula to figure this. I'm old school and prefer the old methods.
It's more than just the rated gallons per hour. The wrong pump motor may work great the first few times you use it. It will wear out much faster than if you had purchased the proper horse powered motor for you needs.
Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by Blitzkreigen
Just get a normal well or pool pump and run your solar power into an inverter so you can power the AC pump, we had the same problem the only other suggestion is find the most efficient AC pump you can, We also use 3 times the amount of solar panels we need so it can charge out battery's and give us full power on cloudy days.