Masons not a secret society

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
when God is denegrated to the "Great Architect" I do not see how he plays an active role in the direction of the lodge.

"Denegrated"?
How does calling God the Great Architect denigrate him?
An architect lays down the blueprint. He is where the buck stops. He is numero uno on any job. Without the architect's plan's there can be nothing. He is the main man.

Get my drift?

Agreed. Everyone has a name for the creator. What you believe does not necessarily carry for everone else. As man unfolds, his "god" does as well.

Originally posted by MOOR45
There are 360 in a circle of completion. Why stop at 33?!

The number of degrees in a circle has nothing to do with the number of degrees in the Scottish Rite of Masonry.
The Scottish Rite comes from the French Rite of Perfection, which consisted of 25 degrees. In 1801, the Scottish Rite was formed by merging the French Rite�s 25 degrees into a system with the 8 degrees of the Philosophical Rite, which yielded a complete system of 33 degrees.
It is worth noting that anyone who claims any degree higher than the 33� will be expelled from the Scottish Rite. This legislation was passed over a century ago to combat the irregularities of the Oriental Rite of Memphis (which consisted of 97 degrees) and Egyptian Rite of Mitzraim (which consisted of 90 degrees).

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by MOOR45
If that is the case why the other 30 degrees just for explaination?

Umm... sorry to burst your bubble, but yes. First of all, you seem to be under the common misapprehension that Freemasonry has 33 degrees. This is incorrect. Freemasonry has but 3 Degrees. There are other bodies, which require you to be a Master Mason to join, which also give out degrees, but there are only 3 in Freemasonry.

(The following is my opinion only, and even my opinion will change if someone convinces me otherwise. Please, if you disagree and have something to share, tell me! )

Now, what you are thinking of, is the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite is dedicated to examining the truths of the three Masonic degrees as they relate to faith, dogma, philosophy, and morality.

Alternate to the Scottish Rite, or additionally (like me ) if you wish and have the time, there is the York Rite, consisting of Chapter, Council, and Preceptory. I am not a member of the Council and Preceptory, so can say nothing about them. The Chapter is dedicated to examining the truths of the three degrees as they pertain to Man's relationship to God.

I am also joining the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, which seems to be a research society based on esotericism. All of these "appendant bodies" are based on the lessons of the first three degrees.

Why when the floor is open on say the 15th a 3rd degree is nowhere to be found?

Huh?

If you mean opening in the 15th Degree, or a Council (? -- I can't remember ) of Knights of the East), everyone there has their third degree. Everyone there is a Master Mason.

Let's be real. Why go through 30 more degrees to explain the first 3?! Surely you jest! There are degrees to obtain beyond while I will agree the 3rd as explained to me is the most important.

So wait... you agree the 3rd degree is the most important degree... so, what's the problem?

As for the story which you Dave Chappelled so well, every story has a teller. The actual evidence of what I was talking about I saw myself.

What on Earth are you talking about? Dave Chapell is a comedian (funny, but sometimes too vulgar for my tastes)... I just don't get what you're trying to say.

I also saw the letter your brothers wrote requesting this particular document.

Come on.

I wish I had that little graphic that Mirthful Me has of a Coles Notes for your post... I really have no idea what you mean here. You must elucidate, if you wish to be understood.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by MOOR45
There are 360 in a circle of completion. Why stop at 33?!

The number of degrees in a circle has nothing to do with the number of degrees in the Scottish Rite of Masonry.
The Scottish Rite comes from the French Rite of Perfection, which consisted of 25 degrees. In 1801, the Scottish Rite was formed by merging the French Rite�s 25 degrees into a system with the 8 degrees of the Philosophical Rite, which yielded a complete system of 33 degrees.
It is worth noting that anyone who claims any degree higher than the 33� will be expelled from the Scottish Rite. This legislation was passed over a century ago to combat the irregularities of the Oriental Rite of Memphis (which consisted of 97 degrees) and Egyptian Rite of Mitzraim (which consisted of 90 degrees).

Fiat Lvx.

I am not comparing the circle to Scottish Rite. If you read carefully Scottish Rite is not mentioned in my post. If you are familiar with the previous 97 and 90 degrees over a hundred years ago, why my brother will you not entertain that there were and are more than that? Would you not agree that knowledge(light) has no end? We are having a good convo. This is hot. I have no anger just trying to open your mind a little. Answer?

Originally posted by MOOR45
I met a well know Mason in NYC who sells Masonic supplies. While buyin a Fez from him he tels me a man came in and bragged about being a 33rd. He pulls out a card and says I'm 360!

First of all, that sounds like a joke. Pretty simple, somewhat funny. Another one we tell in the Scottish Rite, when there's a room of newly made 32nds, is "It's freezing in here!" (I'll leave the understanding of that joke to the reader), or alternately newly made 33rds saying "I've been freezing for years, but I'm finally beginning to thaw out."

As for buying a Fez, was it a Shriner's Fez? In which case, I must say shame on you. It's the worst kind of scurrilousness to deal in Masonic Regalia (particularly the regalia of deceased brethren) when you're not a Mason. I cannnot and will not do anything about it, besides buying up stuff if I see it being sold in second-hand stores, but I find the practice repugnant.

Originally posted by MOOR45
why my brother will you not entertain that there were and are more than that?

This is just my opinion, but I don't think you've earned the right to call Masonic Light "My Brother." You're not a Mason. Unless you mean Brother of the Dust, which we all are. But in that case, he's not "my brother," just "brother."

P.S. By the way, the reason he won't "entertain" that there are more than that, is because there aren't and weren't any! Simple enough for you?

[edit on 17-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
If that is the case why the other 30 degrees just for explaination?

Umm... sorry to burst your bubble, but yes. First of all, you seem to be under the common misapprehension that Freemasonry has 33 degrees. This is incorrect. Freemasonry has but 3 Degrees. There are other bodies, which require you to be a Master Mason to join, which also give out degrees, but there are only 3 in Freemasonry.

(The following is my opinion only, and even my opinion will change if someone convinces me otherwise. Please, if you disagree and have something to share, tell me!

)

Now, what you are thinking of, is the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite is dedicated to examining the truths of the three Masonic degrees as they relate to faith, dogma, philosophy, and morality.

Alternate to the Scottish Rite, or additionally (like me

) if you wish and have the time, there is the York Rite, consisting of Chapter, Council, and Preceptory. I am not a member of the Council and Preceptory, so can say nothing about them. The Chapter is dedicated to examining the truths of the three degrees as they pertain to Man's relationship to God.

I am also joining the Societas Rosicruciana in Anglia, which seems to be a research society based on esotericism. All of these "appendant bodies" are based on the lessons of the first three degrees.

Why when the floor is open on say the 15th a 3rd degree is nowhere to be found?

Huh?

If you mean opening in the 15th Degree, or a Council (? -- I can't remember

) of Knights of the East), everyone there has their third degree. Everyone there is a Master Mason.

Let's be real. Why go through 30 more degrees to explain the first 3?! Surely you jest! There are degrees to obtain beyond while I will agree the 3rd as explained to me is the most important.

So wait... you agree the 3rd degree is the most important degree... so, what's the problem?

As for the story which you Dave Chappelled so well, every story has a teller. The actual evidence of what I was talking about I saw myself.

What on Earth are you talking about? Dave Chapell is a comedian (funny, but sometimes too vulgar for my tastes)... I just don't get what you're trying to say.

I also saw the letter your brothers wrote requesting this particular document.

Come on.

I wish I had that little graphic that Mirthful Me has of a Coles Notes for your post... I really have no idea what you mean here. You must elucidate, if you wish to be understood.

Then we logically should not call 4-33 degrees but lessons correct? Why call them degrees if they are merely explanations of the original? There is a purpose for everything. I already alluded to the the fact that the first three are the most important. As a Moor when I used to be a student in the Moorish Science Temple Shriners, freemasons from 3-33 studied toghether and it was debated often with many brothers concluding there are higher steps to achieve if it is perceived that individual is ready. But I guess it is just a matter of different paths to knowledge. Either way we all seek light, agreed?

Oh, Moorish Science, now I see.

Well, listen, if you want to believe that the "white devil" is only allowed access to 33 degrees while you are allowed access to the full 360, feel free.

Frankly, I have no objection to anyone studying by any path they like, as long as it's legal and not cruel. But your comments about Freemasonry are incorrect and misgiven. If you want to talk about what's true for Moorish Science, please do, and more power to you. Just make it eminently clear that you are talking about Moorish Science, not Freemasonry (even if you believe us "devils" inferior).

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
I met a well know Mason in NYC who sells Masonic supplies. While buyin a Fez from him he tels me a man came in and bragged about being a 33rd. He pulls out a card and says I'm 360!

First of all, that sounds like a joke. Pretty simple, somewhat funny. Another one we tell in the Scottish Rite, when there's a room of newly made 32nds, is "It's freezing in here!" (I'll leave the understanding of that joke to the reader), or alternately newly made 33rds saying "I've been freezing for years, but I'm finally beginning to thaw out."

As for buying a Fez, was it a Shriner's Fez? In which case, I must say shame on you. It's the worst kind of scurrilousness to deal in Masonic Regalia (particularly the regalia of deceased brethren) when you're not a Mason. I cannnot and will not do anything about it, besides buying up stuff if I see it being sold in second-hand stores, but I find the practice repugnant.

Whoa brother! A Fez can be purchased blank, and if I was a ceratin individual he surely would not have sold it. Aren't you familiar with Moorish history. How can anyone in Masonry who is "aware" not be? The Fez is a tradition of my ancesters. It is not simply Masonic regalia! I hooe this is not what is being taught in your lodges because if it is it is truly sad. Are you aware of Fez, Morrocco?! I just visitied the George Washington Memorial and the Scottish Rite 33 in DC and our guide who was a 33 Scottish Rite welcomed us as brothers. Is he blind? I assure you not. I can post pics for you to see. Why are you any different?

Originally posted by MOOR45
[I am not comparing the circle to Scottish Rite. If you read carefully Scottish Rite is not mentioned in my post.

You asked why would Masonry end at the 33�. The only Masonic organization that has 33 degrees is the Scottish Rite.

If you are familiar with the previous 97 and 90 degrees over a hundred years ago, why my brother will you not entertain that there were and are more than that? Would you not agree that knowledge(light) has no end? We are having a good convo. This is hot. I have no anger just trying to open your mind a little. Answer?

I have studied Freemasonry in depth and in great detail for almost twenty years. I am a Fellow of the Grand College of Rites of the United States, and have been awarded the Order of the Blue Forget-Me-Not for Masonic scholarship. I�m not saying all this to brag, but only to give my credentials.
There are indeed other degrees and Rites, but they are not �higher� than other degrees of any other Rites, and they are all well-known to Masonic historians and serious students.
I would indeed agree that Light has no end, but the number of degrees in the various Masonic Rites do.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by MOOR45
As a Moor when I used to be a student in the Moorish Science Temple Shriners, freemasons from 3-33 studied toghether and it was debated often with many brothers concluding there are higher steps to achieve if it is perceived that individual is ready. But I guess it is just a matter of different paths to knowledge. Either way we all seek light, agreed?

Moorish Science Temple? As in Malachi York's organization?

You are not a mason, I presume, for you questions show you to be only peripherally aware of the craft and its true nature...

Ask ANY mason. Most of the members here are 32nd degree masons... open on the 15th degree? What, did you just pull that out of the air?

The other degrees can be attained in one long weekend. Myself, I just petitioned for the York Rite degrees, and to join Shrine. Next year, I will do the Scottish Rite degrees...

The other degrees only explain and expand upon the lessons taught in the first three degrees. If you are seriously looking for information on these degrees, I suggest a read through of Morals and Dogma.

You can disbelieve if you want, but the testimony of 5 million masons certainly outweighs the I know someone who knows someone who... testimony. My grandfather was a 33 degree Scottich Rite, York Rite, Shrine, Veiled Prophets, Grotto etc etc, and I can assure you, he was not running the world or worshiping some strange god...

Where do folks come up with this nonsense? The truth is right before you, a banquet, and you would dine on crusts and green moldy veggies... I just don't get it.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Oh, Moorish Science, now I see.

Well, listen, if you want to believe that the "white devil" is only allowed access to 33 degrees while you are allowed access to the full 360, feel free.

Frankly, I have no objection to anyone studying by any path they like, as long as it's legal and not cruel. But your comments about Freemasonry are incorrect and misgiven. If you want to talk about what's true for Moorish Science, please do, and more power to you. Just make it eminently clear that you are talking about Moorish Science, not Freemasonry (even if you believe us "devils" inferior).

Have you heard me use race at all?!! Any of you. That is such an ignorant statement I can't even begin to answer. We dont look at Europeans as Devils. I am not a member of the Nation of Islam. Before you pass judgement on again what you "think" you know learn to read before demeaning yourself. Evidently your knowledge of history is tragic to say the least. If you were halfway versed you would know that many Moors(Egyptians, Olmecs, Aztecs etc) practiced and set up many of the tenets of what is now modern freemasonry. As a MAN I am for the upliftment of all humanity. We don't see things as white and black as you tragically do. I hope you do not represent the majority of Masons in our society with that backwards thinking.

Originally posted by theron dunn
You are not a mason, I presume, for you questions show you to be only peripherally aware of the craft and its true nature...

Ask ANY mason. Most of the members here are 32nd degree masons... open on the 15th degree? What, did you just pull that out of the air?

The other degrees can be attained in one long weekend. Myself, I just petitioned for the York Rite degrees, and to join Shrine. Next year, I will do the Scottish Rite degrees...

The other degrees only explain and expand upon the lessons taught in the first three degrees. If you are seriously looking for information on these degrees, I suggest a read through of Morals and Dogma.

You can disbelieve if you want, but the testimony of 5 million masons certainly outweighs the I know someone who knows someone who... testimony. My grandfather was a 33 degree Scottich Rite, York Rite, Shrine, Veiled Prophets, Grotto etc etc, and I can assure you, he was not running the world or worshiping some strange god...

Where do folks come up with this nonsense? The truth is right before you, a banquet, and you would dine on crusts and green moldy veggies... I just don't get it.

Did I mention a strange god? Who is reading what they want to see. I'm not attacking you but obviously you are defensive unnecesarily. And if you read carefully, I said I knew these gentlemen directly. If your going to quoue me at least get it right. And it is not just peripherally. I havent claimed to be all knowing about your craft. But there are similarities in our knowledge. Have you been to the MOVPER room in DC. You talk about your grandfather, isn't that you talking about somone else? That is all I did as well.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by MOOR45
As a Moor when I used to be a student in the Moorish Science Temple Shriners, freemasons from 3-33 studied toghether and it was debated often with many brothers concluding there are higher steps to achieve if it is perceived that individual is ready. But I guess it is just a matter of different paths to knowledge. Either way we all seek light, agreed?

Moorish Science Temple? As in Malachi York's organization?

Oh no no no no. No way. He is a nut and a criminal. As in Noble Drew Ali/Timothy Drew also raised in Egypt. I have moved on to our higher level/degree now.

Originally posted by MOOR45
Whoa brother! A Fez can be purchased blank, and if I was a ceratin individual he surely would not have sold it. Aren't you familiar with Moorish history. How can anyone in Masonry who is "aware" not be?

I don't follow you at all. Masonry has nothing whatsoever to do with Moorish history, except to the extent that it has something to do with the history of all people.

You seem to be under the misimpression that Shrine Masonry actually comes from Turkey, and that it is actually realated to the "Moors." This is quite incorrect. Shrine Masonry was created early in the 1870s by a doctor and an actor. They made the ritual out of whole cloth, and the Shrine does not claim the same kind of hazy antiquity claimed by some other appendant bodies. The Shrine is, quite simply, a Chartiable Playground, which does excellent work, but which doesn't claim to any mystical knowledge (except the most important mystical knowledge, i.e. charity), as far as I am aware. You can find more information at this webpage.

Being Turkish, or otherwise of "Moorish" stock does not give you any more right to purchase a Shriner's Fez than anyone else. However, a blank fez, hey, I'll defend to the death your right to buy a blank fez, since it's such a cool-looking hat.

Also, I hope you're not dredging up that old Urban Legend about Fezzes being so named because they comemmorate the death of many Christians by Turkish ("Moorish") troops when they took over some city, and dipped their hats in the blood. This is false. Fezzes are named for the city of Fez because it produced a beautiful red dye used to colour the hats. The people of Fez, IIRC, were renouned for being peacful and quite nice.

I just visitied the George Washington Memorial and the Scottish Rite 33 in DC and our guide who was a 33 Scottish Rite welcomed us as brothers. Is he blind? I assure you not. I can post pics for you to see. Why are you any different?

Whatever your guide did is his own business. I will always and readily greet you as a Brother of the Dust and a Son of Adam. I will not greet you as a Brother Mason unless you become one. Simple, no?

Originally posted by MOOR45
Have you heard me use race at all?!! Any of you. That is such an ignorant statement I can't even begin to answer. We dont look at Europeans as Devils.

OK, I apologise for that. I believed you were a member of the Moorish Science Temple (in a later post you indicated you weren't), and on another thread on this board, someone else indicated that what I stated earlier (i.e., the "white devil" is allowed to get the first 33 degrees, but members of the NOI or Moorish Science Temple can get 360). If your temple does not believe this, I abjectly apologise. Mea maxima culpa. I am pleased to hear that you do not look upon Europeans as devils. That makes me quite happy.

Evidently your knowledge of history is tragic to say the least. If you were halfway versed you would know that many Moors(Egyptians, Olmecs, Aztecs etc) practiced and set up many of the tenets of what is now modern freemasonry.

This, on the other hand, is just silly for lots and lots of reasons. First of all, the word "Moor" is defined in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition as

1. A member of a Muslim people of mixed Berber and Arab descent, now living chiefly in northwest Africa.
2. One of the Muslims who invaded Spain in the 8th century and established a civilization in Andalusia that lasted until the late 15th century.

So clearly the Aztecs and Olmecs were not Moors. Some modern Egyptians may be, I grant, Moors.

But the really silly part is that you think the Aztecs and Olmecs practiced Freemasonry. Do you have any evidence whatsoever of this extraordinary claim?

As a MAN I am for the upliftment of all humanity. We don't see things as white and black as you tragically do.

I do? Really? Why do you say that? I'm not sure that I've ever said anything on this board at all that indicated that. I do, sadly, notice sometimes when people are black... but I don't associate being Black with being a bad person, probably because every single Black person I have ever met in my life (seriously) has been polite and kind.

I hope you do not represent the majority of Masons in our society with that backwards thinking.

I'm sorry that you think I'm a racist. I'm really not, but I guess you have no way of being sure. If you mean that you hope most Masons are not racist, I'd agree... most aren't racist.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by MOOR45
Whoa brother! A Fez can be purchased blank, and if I was a ceratin individual he surely would not have sold it. Aren't you familiar with Moorish history. How can anyone in Masonry who is "aware" not be?

I don't follow you at all. Masonry has nothing whatsoever to do with Moorish history, except to the extent that it has something to do with the history of all people.

You seem to be under the misimpression that Shrine Masonry actually comes from Turkey, and that it is actually realated to the "Moors." This is quite incorrect. Shrine Masonry was created early in the 1870s by a doctor and an actor. They made the ritual out of whole cloth, and the Shrine does not claim the same kind of hazy antiquity claimed by some other appendant bodies. The Shrine is, quite simply, a Chartiable Playground, which does excellent work, but which doesn't claim to any mystical knowledge (except the most important mystical knowledge, i.e. charity), as far as I am aware. You can find more information at

this webpage.


Let me make this simple as it seems I am the only one being misquoted here. I never mentioned I was a Shriner nor did I mention Turky or the Mystic Turks etc. A shriner Fez has many symbols and lettering about it correct? ANYONE can purchase a Fez blank Burgundy Black red etc. So are you saying every Moslem who wears a Fez needs permission from a Mason or become a mason to wear one? Never said the Shrine has any higher degree of importance. Don't want to be a Mason or acknowledged to be something I'm not. I am not a brother of the tribe of Messens but a big brother to you! I am not a Shriner (refer to all my posts) nor intend to be because we (men/women)are the Shrine. I practice I.S.L.A.M. I serve Lord and Man or I Self Law/Lord and Master. As a Noble I am doing my part to uplift fallen humanity, which means everyone, not race specific. There is no greater race than the human or humane race. You said I see you as a devil unfairly. Do my statements show that? What posts are you reading? Fezzes have been around a long time worn by royalty or "masters". If you need clarification once again I can point you in the right direction. And a Fez blank or not is not a hat and calling it as such knowing better is ignorance in every sense of the word as well as disrespectful. Moorish history is expansive and did not just go by the name Moors. Familiar with the Ottoman Empire? Obviously not. This is not jus my history it is everone's. Read first, ask questions after.

[edit on 6/17/2004 by MOOR45]

[edit on 6/17/2004 by MOOR45]

If you use a dictionary to properly define a heritage you are all wrong. So if that's the case if I am black or African American, what is the definition for that. Black is an adjective not a proper noun, so I can't be that. The Black Law Dictionary 4th edition describes an African American as a slave. Do most so called black fit in this category? Dont us a dictionary for one point of reference or what you learned in 4th grade.

Perhaps you should do the "reading first, asking questions later" I explicitly said that it was none of my business whether you buy a blank fez or not, and that I would defend to the death your right to buy a blank fez. I think it's a great idea to buy a blank fez, as I think they look very nice.

As for the hat issue, here's what my old friend "The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Forth Edition says the word "hat" means:

1. A covering for the head, especially one with a shaped crown and brim.
2.
1. A head covering of distinctive color and shape worn as a symbol of office.
2. The office symbolized by the wearing of such a head covering.
3. A role or office symbolized by or as if by the wearing of different hats: wears two hats one as parent and one as corporate executive.

So a Fez isn't a head covering, not even one worn as a symbol of office? Wow.

As for the Ottoman empire, it was actually a required part of the curriculum WAAAAAY back when I was in High School. I always found the Ottoman Empire quite fascinating. Don't know what you're trying to imply, though. The Ottoman Turks really weren't in the habit of wearing Fezzes except as regular hats, as far as I'm aware. And although I think there were many fine and wonderful Turks, I'm not sure what they have to do specifically with the history of Masonry.