Girl 'pressured' into sex change treatment

Girl 'pressured' into sex change treatment

www.news.com.au

Court allows 12-year-old girl to begin sex change
Relative claims mother "brainwashed" the girl
Relative appeals for help to fight court's ruling
A 12-year-old girl who a court has allowed to begin sex change treatment has been vindictively "brainwashed" by her mother into making the decision, a relative says.

(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.news.com.au
www.livenews.com.au

I just can't believe the courts have allowed this, should the court not defer this until the child becomes an adult at 18, is this not also contradictory to laws regarding plastic surgery on minors for cosmetic purposes. I read in another article that the father was unable to afford legal counsel to present an alternative arguement.

Below is i quote which i think is really significant. Even though we are dealing with different conditions, the same problems arise from allowing courts to make these decisions.

�An intersex person is a person who, because of a genetic condition, was born with reproductive organs or sex chromosomes that are not exclusively male or female.�

Surgery on intersexed infants could certainly fit within the Family Court�s definition of surgery which is �ethically sensitive�, �irreversible, �major� and �invasive�[42]. Transferring authority to the courts is equally problematic. Even if it could be successfully argued that parents and doctors should not have the authority to consent to surgery, it is questionable whether the courts are any more capable of deciding the medical fate of these children. The courts are as easily swayed as distressed parents by the opinions of medical professionals.

home.vicnet.net.au...

Courts playing Mum, Dad and God?

www.news.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 25-5-2008 by atlasastro]

yeah my sister is studying to be a nurse. Anyways its been proven that if you are born a girl and the doctors check your genetics and find it's XY then yeah there is an abnormality..this is true

Originally posted by nahsik
yeah my sister is studying to be a nurse. Anyways its been proven that if you are born a girl and the doctors check your genetics and find it's XY then yeah there is an abnormality..this is true

Yeah that is what i have studied too. This is a girl of 12, who the courts have decided can have gender reassignment. I used the social and legal pittfalls of Intersex( which occurs naturally) gender reassignments on infants as an example of how hard it is to deal with those issues, let alone a 12 girl.

Originally posted by atlasastro

I just can't believe the courts have allowed this, should the court not defer this until the child becomes an adult at 18...

I disagree. As a clinical psychologist I have worked with several transgendered persons ranging in age from 7 to 64 years of age and I can tell you that the overall prognosis for transition is much better when it begins early in puberty.

Originally posted by Lilitu

Originally posted by atlasastro

I just can't believe the courts have allowed this, should the court not defer this until the child becomes an adult at 18...

I disagree. As a clinical psychologist I have worked with several transgendered persons ranging in age from 7 to 64 years of age and I can tell you that the overall prognosis for transition is much better when it begins early in puberty.

Do you think Jamie lee Curtis would've faired with a sex change at puberty? She has male genes apparently but I do not think she's ever said she wanted to be anatomically male [I could be wrong]. I think it should be only up to the kids.. if they identify with one sex more than the other logic would suggest their brain is wired that way. If a parent turns around and goes against what the kid naturally feels it's plain mutilation. Let the kids decide for themselves without any pressure. Very difficult though as such decisions require some real sense of self.. something [younger] teenagers rarely have. It's hard enough for kids when they're just dealing with being gay.. I can't imagine what these kids have to go through.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by riley]

I had written an entire post before I realized that this was a Trans case, not an Intersex case. Trans cases are far different than intersex cases as there is no physiological evidence which would support a sex change. I feel like this decision should be made by the young girl in question when she becomes an adult- not before and not by anyone but here. Anything else is mutilation. Sounds like the mother has some strange form of Münchhausen By-Proxy. I kind of feel like the child should be remanded into the care of either the father or other family.

[edit on 25/5/08 by WickedStar]

Originally posted by riley
If a parent turns around and goes against what the kid naturally feels it's plain mutilation. Let the kids decide for themselves without any pressure.

You don't just go out and buy SRS (sex reassignment surgery) like you would a boob job. Patients go through a vetting process which typically involves a full battery of psychological tests, two to three years of psychotherapy and living and successfully functioning as the opposite sex for at least one year prior to surgery. There is also genetic testing which can be performed if warranted.

So in short, no parent can force this upon a child. There are too many professionals involved with a say in the matter. If just one of the child's doctors expresses reservations, it isn't going to happen.

and what if this person strongly disagree`s with both the parents and the court? and then at 18 sues them both for destroying `her` life?

The court in this case is just plain crazy and totally irresponsible ! This child is way to young to make that kind of decision. She's probably just entering puberty, which is a hard time for all children and also a very confusing time. Sure she may feel that she was really meant to be a male, but what happens when she matures and feels that she made a mistake ? They need to wait until she becomes an adult to make a life altering decision like that.


They site that it's in her best interest because she has threatened to harm herself because she fears getting her period. If she is threatening doing harm to herself then what she needs in psychological help right now, not a sex change. I wonder why she fears getting her period so much, sounds like maybe there may be some truth to the mother filling her head with things. Imo the mother could use some psychlogical help herself.


If the mother had petitioned the court to allow her daughter to be allowed to drive because she threatened to harm herself, would they give her a licence to drive ? No they wouldn't because she's too young. If she had petitioned the court to allow the child to marry at such a young age they wouldn't allow it. Why would they allow her to make any other life altering decision at that age, she is just to young.


Another thing that bothers me is that they act as though the mother is the only parent here. The father believes that this is a bad decision for the child, he is her parent too and should be part of the decision making process.


Furthermore the mother wants the child to have this sex change, but the taxpayers have to pay for it ? In my opinion that is just plain UBSURD ! I'm all for medical assistance for people that can't afford it for medical conditions, but for a sex change, for a CHILD that's insane. If you ask me thejudge that made this decision needs to have his head examined.

reply to post by WickedStar


I totally agree with you. i believe that because this issue is dealing with minors it presents a massive problem when we are talking about re-assigning gender, while intersex is done at an early age, and can be progressive i think that the issues that it presents will be similar to the issues of a 12 year old girl seeking gender change. Also because this is a first(the courts decision) the intersex issue presents arguements that are already present.

Originally posted by Lilitu

I disagree. As a clinical psychologist I have worked with several transgendered persons ranging in age from 7 to 64 years of age and I can tell you that the overall prognosis for transition is much better when it begins early in puberty.

Thanks for your reply,
While i can respect your opinion, personally i am just having to hard a time with the courts deciding that a child can take such a life changing course of action. The article states that the child already has emotion problems. Is the courts decision then suggesting that this will cure them?, guaranteeing it as a course of action that is in the best interest of a child. Surely from a clinical perspective, you would have to agree with me in saying, "in this instance in dealing with a 12 girl, what other avenues are available to us as a society that will help this minor deal with her issues before we decide on this course of action". Not the courts deciding, not her parents.

What are your observations on the quality of life of transgender adults post op from your clinical experience? What about the impact on the emotional well being of a child that is going to be progressing through adolescence within these emotionally/sexually formative years dealing with these issues. Can the courts and those from the medical fraternity really believe that at twelve she has the full ability to grasp these concepts concretely. Are we in danger of over emphasising the impotance of these sexual issues in someone so young to explain other issues.

I would really like to read up on some of the issues you raise concerning long term prognosis, if you have any links or suggested reading i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by Harlequin
and what if this person strongly disagree`s with both the parents and the court? and then at 18 sues them both for destroying `her` life?

Such a patient is not going to make it through the vetting process. I already addressed this. Did you even bother to read my response? Even many sincere transsexuals never make it past the barrage of psychological and gender identity examinations. Then there are many whose physical features are so masculine (or feminine as the case may be) that no amount of HRT or surgery will ever allow them to pass for the opposite sex and this they must do. So again this is not something which can be forced by parents, the courts or anyone else. And if the patient is not really a transsexual that will become very apparent as therapy progresses.

Now you didn't seem to be too interested in knowing why it is better that transsexuals transition early in puberty so I will tell you. The primary reasons relate to suicide and/or self-mutilation. The suicide rate among untreated transsexuals is about 30% and about 50% of those attempt suicide at least once in their teen years. So this isn't something to let slide. The second reason is that preops get much better results from lower hormone doses in HRT when it begins early in puberty before their natural hormones have fully masculinized or feminized their bodies. This is also linked to the risk of suicide. If you think puberty is hard on non-transgendered children you can rest assured it is the darkest living nightmare for the transsexual child.

reply to post by riley


OK- sorry to go off topic, but there are women who have male chromosomes how do you find something like that out? How is that possible???

Originally posted by raven bombshell
reply to post by riley

 

OK- sorry to go off topic, but there are women who have male chromosomes

how do you find something like that out? How is that possible???

Hereyou go Raven Bombshell
To quote the site:

“Intersex” is a general term used for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. For example, a person might be born appearing to be female on the outside, but having mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. Or a person may be born with genitals that seem to be in-between the usual male and female types—for example, a girl may be born with a noticeably large clitoris, or lacking a vaginal opening, or a boy may be born with a notably small penis, or with a scrotum that is divided so that it has formed more like labia. Or a person may be born with mosaic genetics, so that some of her cells have XX chromosomes and some of them have XY.

reply to post by atlasastro



I agree. I think the best thing for this person is to wait until they are 18 to make this decision. It seems odd that a court would allow a child to do this at such a young age. I'd make much more sense for the court to have the girl wait until 18. At that point she can make whatever decision she wants for herself.

The girl's mother needs to be held for examination and the daughter given to a relative for the time being.

This is like some sort of alternate dimension where the kids tell the parents what to do and they had better do it - or face the full wrath of the courts.

If anyone here threatened to harm themselves in order to get what they want, that person would be in a lot of trouble. They would be held, examined, treated and charged and then fined for their troubles.

In Australia, threatening self-harm will get you the opposite, you will be appeased, your wants documented and fulfilled, no expense will be spared, the law will cater to you, the old authority structures (parents 'outrank' the kids) will not apply. You will then be able to sue us when you are 18 and then rewarded for your troubles.

Welcome to the New World Order.

Originally posted by doctormcauley

In Australia, threatening self-harm will get you the opposite, you will be appeased, your wants documented and fulfilled, no expense will be spared, the law will cater to you, the old authority structures (parents 'outrank' the kids) will not apply.

Welcome to the New World Order.

Are you implying that the support system developed to help those with issues is a bad thing? I'd say, rather than stringing those with problems up and accusing them of making trouble, government-funded programs to help is actually a pretty good thing.

Back on topic, the issue brought up in the OP has been all over the papers here in Australia. Large text front-page of every news paper. As I saw it from skimming over a few articles, every person but the father of the girl supports her decision, and the father was shown in a negative light, with the papers expressively and specifically going out of their way to degrade the readers opinion of him, at least in the ones I saw.
If the mother is indeed pressuring her daughter into taking the operation then the process should immediately be halted, and a full court review of the mothers custody rights undertaken.

It's a hard decision to make on everyones behalf, and I'm glad I don't have to make it.

Yes it is big news now as the story is spreading. When i posted it, it was just a small blurb in sundays morning paper and started filtering onto web news in more detail, which i found after searching due to the small articles. This subject should be discussed by the mainstream, infact everyone. As for the father, the reports i read said he could not afford legal advice or to have legal councel present at the hearing, hardly fair. The courts seemed to take into account the full weight of the mothers concerns and wishes, why not the fathers(perhaps another issue altogether?) The reports also ellude to the child being used by the parents( what a suprise, as if the child needs more issues.) against each other....hardly grounds for to be parents making arguements for the courts decisions concerning the best interest of their child. Regardless of what light the father is painted in, we still have the issue that the courts are allowing this to go ahead.
Thanks for your thoughts.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by Lilitu

Such a patient is not going to make it through the vetting process. I already addressed this. Did you even bother to read my response?

Hi Lilitu, yes i did read your post. You simply cannot say that this person will not make it through the vetting process. As it stands she has already had medical testimony presented in her favour before the courts. She is also on HRT. And now the courts have decided on this course of action too. Which is the real reason i am posting. The courts acting as the surrogate of this minor.

12yo sex change case would have been properly assessed: AMA

Dr Capolingua says the decision would not have been taken lightly. (AAP: Mark Graham)

Related Story: Court clears way for 12yo's sex change
The head of the Australian Medical Association (AMA) says sex change cases need to be assessed by looking at the person's ability to make a decision.

Dr Rosanna Capolingua's comments come after news a Family Court judge has allowed a 12-year-old girl, who wants to become a boy, to start hormone treatment in preparation for a sex change operation.

www.abc.net.au...

Several medical experts, including a psychiatrist, backed her application for a sex change.

www.telegraph.co.uk... html

Now you didn't seem to be too interested in knowing why it is better that transsexuals transition early in puberty so I will tell you.

I do, if you read my post i have asked for suggested reading material and/or links to be provided concerning this and other issue you mentioned.

posted by atlasastro

posted on 25-5-2008 at 10:46 PM

What are your observations on the quality of life of transgender adults post op from your clinical experience? What about the impact on the emotional well being of a child that is going to be progressing through adolescence within these emotionally/sexually formative years dealing with these issues. .........

I would really like to read up on some of the issues you raise concerning long term prognosis, if you have any links or suggested reading i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by atlasastro]

And thank you for the info pertaining to the reason why it is important that these issues be dealt with as early as possible. But i think it would be also fair to present the statistic for the incidence of suicide in post-op transgender so we can hold up the rationale that this course of action is in the child's best interest. If you have any material relating to this I would greatly appreciate your input, once again that is.




[edit on 26-5-2008 by atlasastro]

[edit on 26-5-2008 by atlasastro]