Am I Racist

I would agree entirely with the view that "racism" is an over-used word and largely innappropriate term. In fact, racism is a symptom of a problem and not a cause. The most important factors in our modern and historical worlds are the differences in culture that cause rifts, perceived or real, in society - racism is a derivative, a simplistic distillation of the rifts to a perceived common denominator.

Man's behaviour is a product of his environment. We see mass immigration and a high incidence of emigration in the UK and inevitably, there is a secton of society that sees change that is not necessarily beneficial. This is less to do with "skin colour" than the normal human state of "sticking to our own kind".

We see this in all aspects of society, in fact, without this process there would be a lot more strife in the cities and towns and villages, between people of the same skin colour who just "don't mix". An example in the UK is the rise of the "chavs". A "chav" doesn't really exist, it is just an homogenous group of (usually) white people that are seen as a "lower class". The key here is the "difference" in attitudes and lifestyle.

The point is, racism is a cloud that obscures the real issue of temporary changes to the status quo. This generally occurs at the fringes of change. As an analogy, think of an ink blot on paper - the status quo is maintained in the ink blot and on the outside paper. The rift is caused at the leading edge of the ink blot as it expands.

However, this will subside over a period of time until the next social upheaval and another ink blot expands to cause tensions and change.

What can be done? Certainly, the white and black supremacists are wrong, however, there does need to be some recognition of the effects of change on society and some common sense approaches (sadly lacking in politics) to reduce strife to a minimum - softly soft catchy monkey as the old phrase goes.

Using words like "racism" is an insult to ALL people as it obscures the legitimate feelings that EVERYBODY has concerning large changes in society. It seems crazy I know, but the world would work better if the word "racism" was banned rather than "racists", that way we could deal with the real issues rather than flounder in a smokescreen as hate and fear bubble around us.

Originally posted by Sonya610
reply to post by Anonymous ATS

 

Well if your daughter is Christian or Jewish it would not be a problem, Muslim men can marry women of either faith. Now to marry a Muslim woman the man does have to convert to Islam.

Is that not predjudiced in itself, why must anyone have to change thier beliefs for another.
And to the unknown poster who has a muslim son in law, that says a lot how they wont accept your daughter or her family. That to me is racist.
People left posts saying we're all equal, well i guess you were wrong.
Seems white folk aren't good enough in the eyes of muslims.
Heck, im gonna lose sleep over that one

Originally posted by orby1976
Seems white folk aren't good enough in the eyes of muslims.
Heck, im gonna lose sleep over that one

What? Okay now that comment truly shows a lack of education. Anyone that has even the most rudimentary knowledge of Islam knows that being white has nothing to do with their opinions of others.

Ignorance is truly the problem here, being hateful and ignorant towards others makes one wonder if you were born into a Muslim family just how would you react to Europeans? You would probably be the epitome of that which you hate; two sides of the same coin.

reply to post by orby1976


Nah orby its not a racial thing. They wont accept anyone outside their religion. I think they would accept a white or black person into their family if that person were a muslim.

Its not racial discrimination, its religious discrimination. A definite difference, but equally bad thing in my opinion.

When we avoid a rattlesnake because that particular animal is known to be dangerous to us based on repeated prior experience, we aren't accused of being "snakeist".

Yet when we apply that same straightforward logic to a social grouping of individuals who happen to share a common religion, we are suddenly racist, and it's a bad thing. (By the way, technically I think it's "bigot" in this case, not racist).

The extent to which social brainwshing has cowed people not only into submission, but into actual BELIEF of this drivel never ceases to amaze me. I can forgive the British as that nation descended into Lala Land a long time ago, but Americans have no excuse.

It's one of the few, true conspiracies in our society today, and yet not a single one of you can see the wood because the trees are blocking your view.

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by orby1976
Seems white folk aren't good enough in the eyes of muslims.
Heck, im gonna lose sleep over that one

What? Okay now that comment truly shows a lack of education. Anyone that has even the most rudimentary knowledge of Islam knows that being white has nothing to do with their opinions of others.

Ignorance is truly the problem here, being hateful and ignorant towards others makes one wonder if you were born into a Muslim family just how would you react to Europeans? You would probably be the epitome of that which you hate; two sides of the same coin.

So you would change everything you believe in for your partner and his family, why wouldn't they want to change for you.
And as for being uneducated.
I was brought up at Eton.
You were eaten and brought up.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by orby1976]

Originally posted by orby1976
I was brought up at Eaton.
You were eaten and brought up.

Well that does not say much for Eaton, eh? Seriously, you have issues; I suspect whether or not you are a racist is the least of them.

Im so confused at this exchange.

What is "eaton"?! If youre going to claim (verily or falsely) that you attended Eton college, at least spell it right!

Im never wrong but im right again this time.
When people cant add to the debate with interlect, they hurl abuse instead.
Sticks and stones,,,,,,,,,,,,

Originally posted by orby1976
When people cant add to the debate with interlect, they hurl abuse instead.
Sticks and stones,,,,,,,,,,,,

LOL. Okay that was funny; continuing would be abusive. Thanks for the laugh and be well and please...really please...practice safe sex.

reply to post by Sonya610


are you offering lol

This thread was never the most intellectual on ATS.

However with that comment, it has now become the lowest.

Consign this thread to cremation please mods

Have you not got a sense of humour, it was a joke, that's all
People say things to me, i say something back, that's the way i am.

Tell you what fella, ignore me from now on, as i will you.
I'm tired of crazed idiots thinking they're better than anyone else.
When something doesn't go their way,"please sir can you delete this thread" sob, sob.
"This wasn't an intelligent thread anyway" sob, sob.
You said it, that's why you joined in.
Stop spitting your dummy out.

As usual, I read the posts with interest. And, as usual, when it comes to Muslims and supposed racism or Islamophobia, there are things that are missing. First of all, other than those who live in Europe or England, perhaps you're not aware of some of the things that have been going on there. Aside from the small issues of a number of Muslims wishing shar'ia law and committing things like honor killings, at this point, per capita, England has the largest Muslim population in Europe. London alone has the largest Muslim population in any city in Europe. The number of mosques and madrassas in that city alone are staggering.

In London, at this time, there are areas which are deemed off-limits to whites. There are actually government signs that say that - the round ones that say "whites" with a slash through it.

It's not racist to be concerned about the massive crime perpetrated by immigrants, nor to be concerned about certain ethnic or religious groups which have shown, by their actions, they often pose a danger. It's patently ridiculous to blame the government or anyone else for concerns about these issues. They are real - and most of Europe is reeling with the impact of Muslims who have immigrated.

Let's look at the mindset here for a minute - it was recently reported that a 7 year old blind boy in Pakistan died in a Muslim school, when the teacher hung him upside down from a fan and beat him - obliviously to death - because he hadn't learned the Qur'an. Women in Europe are being raped because they aren't "properly dressed." European women. Muslim clerics have excused this behavior, on one occasion saying the were like meat for ravenous dogs.

In point of fact, in many countries, it is illegal to even specify who perpetrated what crimes out of political correctness and fear whichever group will "get their feelings hurt." Rather than engage in some sort of subversive or massive campaign against Muslims, most countries have bent over backwards to accommodate them. To even imply the concerns or fears of people has been fabricated clearly shows an ignorance of what is, and has been going on in many of these countries.

In many European countries, it is predominantly the immigrants - the Muslim immigrants (from various countries) of mostly Arab descent, who are perpetrating the crimes and who are in the jails. It is also predominately the Muslims, either immigrants or of immigrant parents, who are committing the staggering numbers of sexual assaults - rapes.

Now - I always have to say this,and will reiterate. I don't hate all Muslims. In fact, some are my friends. Nor, do all Muslims want jihad, or to change the face of the culture they're in. There is a good organization, run by Muslims in England called the Quilliam Foundation, which is trying to do get Muslims, mostly Western Muslims, to do just that - live among and adapt to the culture they're in.

BUT, in order to do this, those Muslims, and Muslims like them, can not follow the Qur'an in it's entirety. They are, in essence, apostates, and not recognized as good Muslims by those who follow the edicts of Muhammed and the Qur'an.

I recently wrote an article on immigration and the problems it's bringing to not only the U.S., but Europe. Its at speakingof.blogtownhall.com... if anyone is interested.

Is the OP a racist? He may be a nationalist. Maybe a patriot. But mainly, he's just a human being concerned about his safety....and that doesn't make him a racist, xenophobe, Islamophobe, Mulsim-hater, or Arab-hater, or any of those....having a healthy fear of a population who may do him, family or his friends harm is logical. And human.

reply to post by orby1976


Evidently you cant take a joke either.

Wouldnt you say this thread is dead now though? Theres nothing interesting being debated any more.

Why the hell do you have so much pent up aggression?

just read ur post, and i know how you feel. I have a lot of Muslim friends and when 7/7 happened i asked them what they thought! Id say 95% of them said that "to kill innocent people is against there religion and has nothing to do with Islam" the other few who are more aggressive and blame everyone else for there short falls in life said "they deserved it" (i don't speak to those fools no more) But after the details emerged about 7/7 i started to see some abnormalities in the governments report, and then stumbled on a documentary called 7/7 the ripple effect. After watching this doc, i was left in no doubt as to what really happened. Before you make any judgments either about me or my motives id ask you to please watch the doc and see for yourself. Here are just a few of the discrepancies about the governments version of events. (1) at the same time as the bombings took place, and at the same tube stations (and bus) an anti terrorist exercise was being performed by the police and paramedics...at the exact locations and at the exact same time!
(2) the tube,s floor was blown upwards not downwards as you would expect if the bomb was in the tube. the only way it could of been blown upwards is if the bomb was place under the tube.
(3) the so called bombers missed the first train because it was cancelled, they got to London after the bombs had exploded

Organeer -

there may be times when things don't make sense - as in the video you mentioned, which I haven't as yet watched. there may also be times when a government or two fudges some facts - I'm not blind to that. There are always a couple of things that strike me during discussions like these:

1st. Our desire to believe that the religion and the people who follow it are basically good and have good intentions.

2nd. Our desire not to lump all of any group into one pot.

3rd. We would rather believe it is a government conspiracy for whatever reason (for the life of me, though, I can't see a reason for this one, if one has that bent).

4th. Rather than say any one particular group, religion, or ideology is bad (which rarely applies to Christians, however), or has a negative effect, the cry of racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia or whatever is made. Which almost always obfuscates the issue.

5th. there is often a lack of information or perspective on the issue(s). Especially when one is dealing with something like Muslims and Islam.

6th. and perhaps most importantly, I think most of us want to believe people and their religion are inherently good.

So, put all those things together and we often get the discussions where concerns about, say, Muslims are turned into racist issues, or the fact that people just really don't understand them and what they really want. That, because there are some bad ones, they all get lumped together. It is a sad thing, but people do this all the time - they make judgments on people based upon their experience and knowledge. For some, the arguments are purely intellectual, for others they hit on a more personal note.

But, due to the world we live in, the fruit of the tree must often be the guide. And, while not all Muslims are bad, their beliefs are not, on the whole, compatible with Western life or cutlure. And, most of them are not shy about wanting whatever culture to accommodate them - in all ways.

One cannot separate their actions from them. One may decide certain groups are less of a threat. But often, it is only because they work to change things quietly, or through the legal system, rather than frontal attacks. It makes little difference in the end, though - the changes, however subtle at first, eventually become a part of the new life. A part of their host country.

The reality is, at this point in our history, there are groups of people who are suspect due to the actions of their predecessors, and due to the constant and very real problems and threats many of them pose. In most of Europe now, the Muslim to non-Muslim crime is staggering, and is growing almost daily. That is a fact. Racism often comes about by assumptions on a certain group - the fear regarding Muslims has a historical, religious and ideological basis. Therefore, I do not consider it either racist, Islamophobic or whatever. It is a normal human reaction. People try to minimize it by playing the race card. And, that's all it is - an attempt to minimize facts which are staring people in the face.

Even if the govt fudged some info for whatever reason, I don't think anyone can dispute the many things that have been going on regarding Muslims. And, frankly, unless there is a fundamental change in how they view the Qur'an, I can't see it changing...

But, until that happens, Muslims are, and will continue to be suspect - and rightly so.

Originally posted by AgentStovkowski

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV


And if laws were applied equally to both ethnicities would those figures still be true? As you can't appear to get current figures for your pretty bar graphs, I don't see why I should match them with current info, so:

If laws were applied equally to both races, black arrest rates would be even higher. Today the police are afraid of arresting blacks, as when they do, most of the time they get racist lawsuits against them. I've personally witnessed a black male robbing a white male on a street in Syracuse, NY and a police officer drove right by without stopping the robbery. Police do not even want to prevent black crimes any more.

Sick indeed and that will create more crime and more racism, the PC word are making they're own enemies.

I can tell you buddy that I'm just like you. I hate #ing muslims.

Originally posted by paul76

REPLY TO orby1976

Don't let the media cloud your vision mate. Don't tarnish every Muslim with
the same brush. They're good people and the majority of them are kind and good hearted.

You want to know the reasons for so many Muslim immigrants coming to Britain? The Afghanistan and Iraq war. The majority of Immigrants that come to Britain are from the two countries named above. I'm discounting the Eastern Europeans as they're from Europe as we are as one.

Remember they're running from Iraq and Afghanistan because we've been bombing the crap out of there countries for the last five years. It's only natural that some of these people will be angry. They've lost legs, arms, eyes, children, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers.

Don't believe the media, It's in their interests to divide the populace. They need justification for the continued presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Put yourself in there position and maybe you'll be more forgiving. Yes, there are some radical Muslims, like we have radical Christians but don't hate them all, they're simply us.



[edit on 27uTuesday08/27/20 by paul76]

Wrong:

Most Muslims in Britain are immigrants from South Asia and Middle East, in particular Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.

i don't know where you get your information but if this is disinformation you are doing a horrible job at it, even in the Netherlands most are from turkey and morocco, not some war land.