It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by miriam0566
incomparible, a person can be resurrected and then die/be killed again.
Originally posted by miriam0566
it is completely illogical that a place can be thrown into itself.
Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.
Originally posted by miriam0566
john 5:[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
has the resurrection happened yet?
Originally posted by miriam0566
2 tim 2:[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
no it hasnt, that means everyone who has died is still dead (sleeping). when does the resurrection happen?
Originally posted by miriam0566
1 corinthians 15:[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
at christ´s coming will they be resurrected
Originally posted by miriam0566
matt 24:3-7 signs of christs presence.
so yes your belief that hell is a place of torment does conflict with the bible. just abit.
"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - from Matthew 5:22
cross reference this with hebrews 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Gehenna was a place of destruction, plain and simple. jesus was warning them that they would not be resurrected, they would stay dead....
Originally posted by miriam0566
"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." - from Matthew 5:29
which is completely true, better to be alive with a missing part than dead
Originally posted by miriam0566
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5
again the word for hell here is literally gehenna. a place of destruction, for him to say this to the jews of the time, they had to know what he was talking about. Gehenna was a place they threw the bodies of criminals.
Originally posted by saint4God
Not logically. If they die a second time, reason says they can be brought back after that. Therefore death was never really final in the first place...nor the second.
"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." - 1 Corinthians 1:25
It is illogical for Christ to be 100% man and 100% God.
It is illogical that God would create a being and allow them to fall into sin, to experience pain and death.
It is illogical for man to be created of dirt and his companion from his rib bone.
It is illogical for God being Christ's father would allow him to die on a cross.
Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.
Not so else we would not be discussing it.
Gehenna was a place of destruction, plain and simple. jesus was warning them that they would not be resurrected, they would stay dead....
It doesn't say dead, it says "thrown into hell". If you're dead, what does it matter if you're thrown anywhere?
Originally posted by miriam0566
not logically? who brings them back? isnt it god? if god says he isnt going to resurrect someone again, do you think its possible then?
Originally posted by miriam0566
hold up, this scripture in no way says that GOD is illogical. it only says that man could never hope to compete.
Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it is, im really glad you can admit that. now if only you can see that its not scriptual
Originally posted by miriam0566
It is illogical that God would create a being and allow them to fall into sin, to experience pain and death.
no its not.
Originally posted by miriam0566
questions were raised at the garden of eden. i think god handled the situation perfectly.
Originally posted by miriam0566
besides you of all people on this forum should understand that the death and pain is only temporary.
Originally posted by miriam0566
why is that illogical? what difference does it make if eve was made from a rib or a duck or air?
Originally posted by miriam0566
It is illogical for God being Christ's father would allow him to die on a cross.
what? how is that illogical given the situation?
Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.
Originally posted by miriam0566
what was gehenna used for? torture? or to destroy the garbage?
Originally posted by miriam0566
It doesn't say dead, it says "thrown into hell". If you're dead, what does it matter if you're thrown anywhere?
your triffling on minor points.
Originally posted by miriam0566
criminals were not thrown into gehenna alive. they were excecuted elsewhere and then thier bodies were thrown into the valley. and it does matter. if jesus was using that as an illustration, then the illustration would be clear. being thrown into the lake of fire ment you were a criminal.
you quoted luke 12 for me, thank you.
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5
if both the rightous and the unrightoues are to be resurrected, then what is he saying here? GOD can choose not to bring you back.
Originally posted by miriam0566
let me illustrate this for you.
you have a book. this book is a biography about this persons life. one day you do spring cleaning and throw the book out into the trash. if you want the book back you can always go to the trash and take it out. but then you decide you dont want the book, and you are sure of your decision. you throw into the fireplace. can you retrieve it then after it is burnt?
most companies shred important documents. some including the CIA incenerate them. why? so that noone can ever retrieve the data.
if the book in my illustration represents a person, what do you think it means for the person who is thrown into the figurative lake of fire?
Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus used gehenna to illustrate this point for a reason. and you ignoring that reason
Originally posted by miriam0566
and siding with dogma.
Originally posted by saint4God
I believe all things are possible and many of those things would be seen by us as 'illogical'.
Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it is, im really glad you can admit that. now if only you can see that its not scriptual
Is your logic god? Or God logical? Or neither? Why or why not?
John chapter 1 says God became flesh. Jesus explains that He and The Father are One. Which part is unclear?
Originally posted by miriam0566
besides you of all people on this forum should understand that the death and pain is only temporary.
I do, but careful not to put me on a pedestal . I am a saint for God, not THE saint for God.
If eve was made from a duck, you'd find that logical?
If God is God, then by definition He would not need to cause his own suffering. He could just wave His 'hand' and it would happen. To many non-believers, what He did was illogical. PRobably baffling to many believers as well, though they accept it.
Originally posted by miriam0566
what was gehenna used for? torture? or to destroy the garbage?
Sounds like both to me. Does it matter?
if both the rightous and the unrightoues are to be resurrected, then what is he saying here? GOD can choose not to bring you back.
He does reserve the right, but according to the Bible, that's not what He had chosen to do in Revelation.
Why must it be figurative? The word is used literally many times in the Bible.
Originally posted by miriam0566
its a simple question really and your sidestepping it.
Originally posted by miriam0566
not logically?
Originally posted by miriam0566
who brings them back? isnt it god?
Originally posted by miriam0566
if god says he isnt going to resurrect someone again, do you think its possible then?
Originally posted by miriam0566
do you feel that if god doesnt want something to happen, that it can still happen?
Originally posted by miriam0566
its not unclear, its a poor translation.
Originally posted by miriam0566
chapter 10 is argued by jesus himself!!! (just read the verses after)
Originally posted by miriam0566
If eve was made from a duck, you'd find that logical?
a painting that is made with oil or acrylic is still a painting.
Originally posted by miriam0566
if the bible said that eve was made from a duck, i would find it wierd, but not illogical.
Originally posted by miriam0566
illogic is saying god died. its also illogical to say he raised himself. the entire trinity doctrine is illogical.
Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus dieing for our sins is logical because he loved the world enough to save it. even doing so within the bounds of justice that god set.
Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it does immensly.
on the one hand you have a god who is loving but still just.
on the other you have a god who feels an eternity of torture and torment for 80 years of sin is justice.
does that honesly make sense to you?
Originally posted by miriam0566
rev20:
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
sounds to me like he does
Originally posted by miriam0566
if thats true, then he´s talking about the literal valley of hinnom. i dont think they´ve found anyone being eternally tormented there.
God wants all to be saved, correct? Then why aren't all saved?
Originally posted by miriam0566
or maybe not all are saved because god is also just. and he cannot allow wickedness to go on forever.
Originally posted by miriam0566
consider this ----------
if we are made in god's image, then our sense of logic and of justice is based off of god's. yes god is wiser and infinately more capable of things.
Originally posted by miriam0566
but any nincompoop can tell that an eternity of fire torture for 80 years worth of sin is just BS. your arguement that GOD himself could justify that just doesnt hold any water. sorry
Originally posted by miriam0566
or... its simply saying that they didnt repent, they are not going to repent so thier destruction will be eternal.
fire destroys
Originally posted by saint4God
Originally posted by miriam0566
or... its simply saying that they didnt repent, they are not going to repent so thier destruction will be eternal.
fire destroys
Usually it does, yes, but:
"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:42
If it were physical, this weeping and gnashing of teeth would be merely seconds. This kind of pain is mentioned 7 times...but strangely enough Christ doesn't say people die when they are thrown into the fiery furnace. Why is that?
Originally posted by saint4God
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11
[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]