Originally posted by miriam0566
incomparible, a person can be resurrected and then die/be killed again.

Not logically. If they die a second time, reason says they can be brought back after that. Therefore death was never really final in the first place...nor the second.

Originally posted by miriam0566
it is completely illogical that a place can be thrown into itself.

I'm surprised that throughout the whole Bible, this is the one you choose to believe as a logical fallacy.

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." - 1 Corinthians 1:25

It is illogical for Christ to be 100% man and 100% God. It is illogical that God would create a being and allow them to fall into sin, to experience pain and death. It is illogical for man to be created of dirt and his companion from his rib bone. It is illogical for God being Christ's father would allow him to die on a cross. Our relationship is not one founded upon logic. It's founded on love, hope, faith and trust...but if logical answers are what are required, then:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." - James 1:5

It's illogical for blackholes to exist...but they do. A singularity of a star is thrown into itself by it's own gravity.

Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.

Not so else we would not be discussing it.

Originally posted by miriam0566
john 5:[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

has the resurrection happened yet?

Not for you and I.

Originally posted by miriam0566
2 tim 2:[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

no it hasnt, that means everyone who has died is still dead (sleeping). when does the resurrection happen?

Good question. Jesus answers saying we will not know when, that only God knows.

Originally posted by miriam0566
1 corinthians 15:[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

at christ´s coming will they be resurrected

Ya.

Originally posted by miriam0566
matt 24:3-7 signs of christs presence.

so yes your belief that hell is a place of torment does conflict with the bible. just abit.

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - from Matthew 5:22

cross reference this with hebrews 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Gehenna was a place of destruction, plain and simple. jesus was warning them that they would not be resurrected, they would stay dead....

How do you figure?

Originally posted by miriam0566
"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." - from Matthew 5:29

which is completely true, better to be alive with a missing part than dead

It doesn't say dead, it says "thrown into hell". If you're dead, what does it matter if you're thrown anywhere?

Originally posted by miriam0566
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5

again the word for hell here is literally gehenna. a place of destruction, for him to say this to the jews of the time, they had to know what he was talking about. Gehenna was a place they threw the bodies of criminals.

Notice how Christ distinguishes dead from hell here. He says it's not bad enough to be killed, but in addition, you'll be thrown into hell. Again, where you're thrown doesn't matter if you are dead to all senses and don't know what's going on.

((By the way miriam, I liked your last post. It made me look up something about etymology))

[edit on 28-5-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Not logically. If they die a second time, reason says they can be brought back after that. Therefore death was never really final in the first place...nor the second.

not logically? who brings them back? isnt it god? if god says he isnt going to resurrect someone again, do you think its possible then?

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." - 1 Corinthians 1:25

hold up, this scripture in no way says that GOD is illogical. it only says that man could never hope to compete.

It is illogical for Christ to be 100% man and 100% God.

yes it is, im really glad you can admit that. now if only you can see that its not scriptual

It is illogical that God would create a being and allow them to fall into sin, to experience pain and death.

no its not. questions were raised at the garden of eden. i think god handled the situation perfectly. besides you of all people on this forum should understand that the death and pain is only temporary.

It is illogical for man to be created of dirt and his companion from his rib bone.

why is that illogical? what difference does it make if eve was made from a rib or a duck or air?

It is illogical for God being Christ's father would allow him to die on a cross.

what? how is that illogical given the situation?

Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.

Not so else we would not be discussing it.

well actually there are other possibilities for that one.

Gehenna was a place of destruction, plain and simple. jesus was warning them that they would not be resurrected, they would stay dead....

How do you figure?

what was gehenna used for? torture? or to destroy the garbage?

It doesn't say dead, it says "thrown into hell". If you're dead, what does it matter if you're thrown anywhere?

your triffling on minor points. criminals were not thrown into gehenna alive. they were excecuted elsewhere and then thier bodies were thrown into the valley.

and it does matter. if jesus was using that as an illustration, then the illustration would be clear. being thrown into the lake of fire ment you were a criminal.

you quoted luke 12 for me, thank you.
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5

if both the rightous and the unrightoues are to be resurrected, then what is he saying here? GOD can choose not to bring you back.

let me illustrate this for you.

you have a book. this book is a biography about this persons life. one day you do spring cleaning and throw the book out into the trash. if you want the book back you can always go to the trash and take it out. but then you decide you dont want the book, and you are sure of your decision. you throw into the fireplace. can you retrieve it then after it is burnt?

most companies shred important documents. some including the CIA incenerate them. why? so that noone can ever retrieve the data.

if the book in my illustration represents a person, what do you think it means for the person who is thrown into the figurative lake of fire?

jesus used gehenna to illustrate this point for a reason. and you ignoring that reason and siding with dogma.

Originally posted by miriam0566
not logically? who brings them back? isnt it god? if god says he isnt going to resurrect someone again, do you think its possible then?

I believe all things are possible and many of those things would be seen by us as 'illogical'.

Originally posted by miriam0566
hold up, this scripture in no way says that GOD is illogical. it only says that man could never hope to compete.

I never claimed that God was illogical, merely that we can't comprehend. He does however, reserve the right to be illogical and has demonstrated many acts of love when mankind's logic or even justice says otherwise.

Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it is, im really glad you can admit that. now if only you can see that its not scriptual

Is your logic god? Or God logical? Or neither? Why or why not?

John chapter 1 says God became flesh. Jesus explains that He and The Father are One. Which part is unclear?

Originally posted by miriam0566

It is illogical that God would create a being and allow them to fall into sin, to experience pain and death.

no its not.

Perhaps not to you. Illogical for other people, surely, else they would not question it.

Originally posted by miriam0566
questions were raised at the garden of eden. i think god handled the situation perfectly.

Me too.

Originally posted by miriam0566
besides you of all people on this forum should understand that the death and pain is only temporary.

I do, but careful not to put me on a pedestal . I am a saint for God, not THE saint for God.

Originally posted by miriam0566
why is that illogical? what difference does it make if eve was made from a rib or a duck or air?

If eve was made from a duck, you'd find that logical?

Originally posted by miriam0566

It is illogical for God being Christ's father would allow him to die on a cross.

what? how is that illogical given the situation?

If God is God, then by definition He would not need to cause his own suffering. He could just wave His 'hand' and it would happen. To many non-believers, what He did was illogical. PRobably baffling to many believers as well, though they accept it.

Originally posted by miriam0566
the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.

Originally posted by miriam0566
what was gehenna used for? torture? or to destroy the garbage?

Sounds like both to me. Does it matter?

Originally posted by miriam0566

It doesn't say dead, it says "thrown into hell". If you're dead, what does it matter if you're thrown anywhere?

your triffling on minor points.

Hehe, I think you're doing the same thing.

Originally posted by miriam0566
criminals were not thrown into gehenna alive. they were excecuted elsewhere and then thier bodies were thrown into the valley. and it does matter. if jesus was using that as an illustration, then the illustration would be clear. being thrown into the lake of fire ment you were a criminal.

you quoted luke 12 for me, thank you.
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5

if both the rightous and the unrightoues are to be resurrected, then what is he saying here? GOD can choose not to bring you back.

He does reserve the right, but according to the Bible, that's not what He had chosen to do in Revelation.

Originally posted by miriam0566
let me illustrate this for you.

you have a book. this book is a biography about this persons life. one day you do spring cleaning and throw the book out into the trash. if you want the book back you can always go to the trash and take it out. but then you decide you dont want the book, and you are sure of your decision. you throw into the fireplace. can you retrieve it then after it is burnt?

most companies shred important documents. some including the CIA incenerate them. why? so that noone can ever retrieve the data.

if the book in my illustration represents a person, what do you think it means for the person who is thrown into the figurative lake of fire?

Why must it be figurative? The word is used literally many times in the Bible.

Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus used gehenna to illustrate this point for a reason. and you ignoring that reason

No, I'm taking his words literally until demonstrated that it is a mere figure of speech.

Originally posted by miriam0566
and siding with dogma.

I grew as a Christian without a church so that argument simply does not fly. I studied the Bible independently before finding a church that would fit what was in the Book. I care not about dogma or any other earth institution's advancement. I'm also mildly offended at the suggestion that an institution would mean more to me as a believer than the Word of God...now that my friend, is highly illogical.

[edit on 28-5-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I believe all things are possible and many of those things would be seen by us as 'illogical'.

its a simple question really and your sidestepping it.

do you feel that if god doesnt want something to happen, that it can still happen?

Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it is, im really glad you can admit that. now if only you can see that its not scriptual

Is your logic god? Or God logical? Or neither? Why or why not?

John chapter 1 says God became flesh. Jesus explains that He and The Father are One. Which part is unclear?

its not unclear, its a poor translation.

chapter 1 is very clear about god and the word being separate, if you read it in the original greek.

chapter 10 is argued by jesus himself!!! (just read the verses after)

except you keep ignoring this...

Originally posted by miriam0566
besides you of all people on this forum should understand that the death and pain is only temporary.

I do, but careful not to put me on a pedestal . I am a saint for God, not THE saint for God.

cute

If eve was made from a duck, you'd find that logical?

a painting that is made with oil or acrylic is still a painting.

if the bible said that eve was made from a duck, i would find it wierd, but not illogical.

If God is God, then by definition He would not need to cause his own suffering. He could just wave His 'hand' and it would happen. To many non-believers, what He did was illogical. PRobably baffling to many believers as well, though they accept it.

illogic is saying god died. its also illogical to say he raised himself. its illogical to say ¨he¨ lied by telling everyone he was god´s son. the entire trinity doctrine is illogical.

jesus dieing for our sins is logical because he loved the world enough to save it. even doing so within the bounds of justice that god set.

Originally posted by miriam0566
what was gehenna used for? torture? or to destroy the garbage?

Sounds like both to me. Does it matter?

yes it does immensly.

on the one hand you have a god who is loving but still just.

on the other you have a god who feels an eternity of torture and torment for 80 years of sin is justice.

does that honesly make sense to you?

if both the rightous and the unrightoues are to be resurrected, then what is he saying here? GOD can choose not to bring you back.

He does reserve the right, but according to the Bible, that's not what He had chosen to do in Revelation.

rev20:
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

sounds to me like he does

Why must it be figurative? The word is used literally many times in the Bible.

if thats true, then he´s talking about the literal valley of hinnom. i dont think they´ve found anyone being eternally tormented there.

Originally posted by miriam0566
its a simple question really and your sidestepping it.

No sidestep, I'll apply my answer to the following questions more directly:

Originally posted by miriam0566
not logically?

Not logically. Exactly. But, being that God is above our version of logic, this isn't a problem.

Originally posted by miriam0566
who brings them back? isnt it god?

Yes.

Originally posted by miriam0566
if god says he isnt going to resurrect someone again, do you think its possible then?

No. Hence why I said "with God all things are possible". The reverse side of this statement is "without God no things are possible".

Originally posted by miriam0566
do you feel that if god doesnt want something to happen, that it can still happen?

This is a good question. Nothing happenes that God does not allow to happen but check this. God wants all to be saved, correct? Then why aren't all saved? If you need specific verses I can point them out. It is apparent to me that God does not force us to do things we don't feel in our heart we want to do in our lifetime.

Originally posted by miriam0566
its not unclear, its a poor translation.

Not it isn't ^_^, either keep the Bible or throw it out. It aligns with what Christ says about He and the Father being One and so forth. We can't pick and choose what massages our ears just right.

Originally posted by miriam0566
chapter 10 is argued by jesus himself!!! (just read the verses after)

How does chapter 10 argue chapter 1? I've never heard anyone else say this nor see how or where this is the case.

Originally posted by miriam0566

If eve was made from a duck, you'd find that logical?

a painting that is made with oil or acrylic is still a painting.

Alright! Now we're using some nice analogies ^_^, and I agree.

Originally posted by miriam0566
if the bible said that eve was made from a duck, i would find it wierd, but not illogical.

I would find it both weird and illogical, but would recognize just because I don't 'get it' doesn't mean it isn't true.

Originally posted by miriam0566
illogic is saying god died. its also illogical to say he raised himself. the entire trinity doctrine is illogical.

Amen, and I am SO glad God love us more than He loves our silly rules of logic.

Originally posted by miriam0566
jesus dieing for our sins is logical because he loved the world enough to save it. even doing so within the bounds of justice that god set.

To us that's logical. To a non-believer, not so much. Love is emotion, not logic.

Originally posted by miriam0566
yes it does immensly.

on the one hand you have a god who is loving but still just.

on the other you have a god who feels an eternity of torture and torment for 80 years of sin is justice.

does that honesly make sense to you?

God is just no matter whether we think it is fair or not. What makes sense to me is that we're not going to have a say in what we think is fair punishment to those who choose to disobey Him. We'll find out later. If you're right, then sigh of relief. If you're wrong...is that something you're going to be able to 'live' with?

Originally posted by miriam0566
rev20:
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

sounds to me like he does

Notice he says here those not written in the book of life (those PEOPLE whom God has judged) are cast into the lake of fire. Not just the beast and false prophet.

Originally posted by miriam0566
if thats true, then he´s talking about the literal valley of hinnom. i dont think they´ve found anyone being eternally tormented there.

Neither has anyone found heaven or hell. We're talking about things we cannot see here. The question is, when Jesus said "fire" did he mean "fire" or "sleep". Between the two, it make a whole lot more sense logically that he meant fire. Fire and sleep are not a good comparison.

[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]

God wants all to be saved, correct? Then why aren't all saved?

duet 32:[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

or maybe not all are saved because god is also just. and he cannot allow wickedness to go on forever.

1 kings 8:[32] Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

pss 7:[9] Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

prov 16:[11] A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

consider this ----------

gen 1:[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

if we are made in god's image, then our sense of logic and of justice is based off of god's. yes god is wiser and infinately more capable of things.

but any nincompoop can tell that an eternity of fire torture for 80 years worth of sin is just BS. your arguement that GOD himself could justify that just doesnt hold any water. sorry

Originally posted by miriam0566
or maybe not all are saved because god is also just. and he cannot allow wickedness to go on forever.

Totally agree.

Originally posted by miriam0566
consider this ----------

if we are made in god's image, then our sense of logic and of justice is based off of god's. yes god is wiser and infinately more capable of things.

Yep, an acorn compared to the mighty oak. We've demonstrated both historically and Biblically just how flawed our logic is.

Originally posted by miriam0566
but any nincompoop can tell that an eternity of fire torture for 80 years worth of sin is just BS. your arguement that GOD himself could justify that just doesnt hold any water. sorry

Let's revisit what is eternal again, that same word you're using above:

"It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire." - Matthew 18:8

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:40-41

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7

Not just the devil and his crew, but Sodom, Gomorrah and those people in surrounding towns as well. There are plenty of synonyms for 'eternal' that describe this as well, but I think this would be something needing to be addressed first.

[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by miriam0566
or... its simply saying that they didnt repent, they are not going to repent so thier destruction will be eternal.

fire destroys

Usually it does, yes, but:

"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:42

If it were physical, this weeping and gnashing of teeth would be merely seconds. This kind of pain is mentioned 7 times...but strangely enough Christ doesn't say people die when they are thrown into the fiery furnace. Why is that?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by miriam0566
or... its simply saying that they didnt repent, they are not going to repent so thier destruction will be eternal.

fire destroys

Usually it does, yes, but:

"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:42

If it were physical, this weeping and gnashing of teeth would be merely seconds. This kind of pain is mentioned 7 times...but strangely enough Christ doesn't say people die when they are thrown into the fiery furnace. Why is that?

again, you quote from a parable.

matt 13
[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

what happens when you put tares (weeds) into a furnace? they burn up. in fact if you take a weed and throw it into a furnace you will never see it again. the illustration is clear

jesus later explains the parable

[36] Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

so jesus sows the seed.

[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

after jesus and the apostles leave, weeds are sown within the congregation (apostasy) compare with acts 20:29

[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

so the harvest is around the time of armageddon, obviously alittle before.

[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

again, furnace, fire, destruction. just like weeds being thrown into a fire. its obvious from the context the wailing and gnashing happend before they die.

the other 5 references

matt 8:[10] When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

darkness is where the weeping and gnashing is

matt 22:[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

the wedding feast illustration. again darkness

matt 24:[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

parable of the faithful and evil servants. doesnt even say where he will go

matt 25:[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

the parable of the lazy servant. again darkness

luke 13:[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

the master shuting the door. this one only says that they wont be in the kingdom of god

-----------------

so literal or figurative?

well literal is impossible. is it darkness or torment in a fiery hell? they are opposites.

its figurative.

all of the scriptures have several things in common. all of them except matt 8 are parables. symbolic of something. ALL of them refer to the people who should know better. matt 13 talks about apostates in the congregation who should know better, matt 8 talks about jews who should have reconized jesus as messiah, matt 22 is refering to a guy who was invited to the feast and attended, matt 24 is about a servant of the master (someone who claims to serve jesus.) matt 25 is the same. luke is the same

the weeping and the gnashing is because the people know what is in store for them. they have seen the truth and acted upon it but have ultimatly rejected it and have worked against it for whatever reason. they sin against holy spirit

heb 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

that means the second death. total and final destruction for those who not only dont repent, but never will.

it does not mean eternal torment for them

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11

[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." - Revelation 14:9-11

[edit on 29-5-2008 by saint4God]

isaiah 34:9-10 - Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

this was god's pronouncement against edom. was edom thrown into hell? no it was destroyed and still remains desolate to this day. even the scriptures after explain

11-12 - But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness. Its nobles-- there is no one there Whom they may proclaim king-- And all its princes will be nothing.Thorns will come up in its fortified towers, Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities; It will also be a haunt of jackals And an abode of ostriches.The desert creatures will meet with the wolves, The hairy goat also will cry to its kind; Yes, the night monster will settle there And will find herself a resting place.The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there, And it will hatch and gather them under its protection. Yes, the hawks will be gathered there, Every one with its kind.

not hellfire. desolation.

the beast is an organization that exists in conflict with god. it will be destroyed forever.

if a city is destroyed, and you want to rebuild, you have to wait untill the fire dies down right? otherwise anything you build will be burned. god is making a point by saying it will smoke forever. noone will ever be able to rebuild.

like edom, the beast will be desolate forever.

revelation 18 (talking about babylon the great)

[5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
[6] Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
[7] How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
[8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
[9] And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

utterly burned with fire, or destroyed. last verse, they shall see the smoke of her burning

revelation 19

[1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
[2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
[3] And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

notice her smoke rose for ever and ever. like the literal city of babylon, babylon the great will never be rebuilt

(if you notice, babylon is also given torment. but its obvious from the context, it is before she is destroyed.)