Forever in "Hell"

As I was lying awake last night I was thinking. If God made us to be
not so perfect, why have a hell to punish us for doing what we were programed to do. So then I was thinking about how Earth is an experiment to see how we function with free will.

Why do we burn in hell if we were put on Earth with free will?

I thought about this question and then an answer came to my head. What if
hell was a quarantine for the spirit. It is a rehabilitation center for our souls.
If we were perfect in this world then entering the next, we would not need
this to cleanse our spirits. If we are bad then we need to be cleansed so we
do not spread evil when we enter the next place.

Any thoughts on this?

Of course you are working on the premise that Hell does indeed exist.

I was under the impression that Hell was a concept that originated from the vengeful style God Jahova. I thought that Divine Grace liberated us from such perils. The idea of Divine Justice would also seem to negate the Hell idea, restoring balance long before the perp dies and goes anywhere.

I also like the idea of Heaven and Hell on here on earth. Makes more sense to me, in a karmic way.

The idea of hell being a sort of quarantine is something I have come across before, there being a place where souls/spirits (unfortunately not necessarily the same thing) can reflect upon terrible wrong-doings.

Most people have a wrong concept of what the bible says about 'hell' and the 'lake of fire'.

Here I have some links what the bible really seems to say about hell (I think you will be surprised). It's been a while since I read them myself and I'm to lazy at the Moment to reread them all, so I cannot clearly recommend them or not. But as I can remember I thought they were right, but form your own opinion:

thereignofchrist.com...

and:

www.geocities.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by Equinox99
I thought about this question and then an answer came to my head. What if
hell was a quarantine for the spirit. It is a rehabilitation center for our souls.
If we were perfect in this world then entering the next, we would not need
this to cleanse our spirits. If we are bad then we need to be cleansed so we
do not spread evil when we enter the next place.

Any thoughts on this?

It's a thought I think most believers have at one time or another...or consistently believe it. The difficulty is, if you believe the Bible as the word of God, it contradicts what is written here:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:10, 20:14-15

One of the tools God gives us is hope. From that hope we do our best to convince ourselves that no soul could possibly be lost forever and ever. As much as I hope and wish what you've said is true, we have to trust that God is righteous in His judgement and respect it. Spread the word fellow saints, the consequences of being silent are too great.

Originally posted by Kaleon
Most people have a wrong concept of what the bible says about 'hell' and the 'lake of fire'.

If someone says they are different, then I agree they have the wrong concept:

"It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell." - Matthew 18:9

"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." - Mark 9:43

"It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched." - Mark 9:46-48

There's more of course, but if the words from Christ's mouth are unconvincing, than nothing else will suffice. The Bible indeed describes Hell as the fiery place...no matter how many blogs you linky.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by saint4God]

Did you read the links?
Ok, I myself am not completely sure of what the bible says about 'the lake of fire' (Gehenna). Is it a place of eternal tornment or eternal death?
At least the false Prophet, the Antichrist and Satan seem to be tornmented forever.

But of what I'm relatively sure about, is that hell and the lake of fire are mixed up (but are in reality two different places). Hell (sheol) seems to be the place were all people have go to when they die (righteous and unrighteous), and it is rather compared to sleep in the bible, than to tornment.

Nevertheless, the dead will be resurrected once, and will either have eternal life or be thrown into the lake of fire (which means either eternal tornment or eternal death, I have to read myself first).

And no matter if the lake of fire is eternal death or eternal tornment, I personally don't want to go there, and hope to be saved by Jesus Christ.

(But because I'm from Europe, and it's late evening here and I'm tired, I have to do research and bring arguments another day)

Nevertheless I think, the links I gave, are based on scripture, so I would recommend you to read them.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Kaleon]

[edit on 22-5-2008 by Kaleon]

saint4God has made some deadly-serious points. And although this subject is understandably unpopular, all credit to those prepared to face up to it.

I've heard it said so many times that talk of hell is scaremongering, etc., etc. But if it is real, talk of scaremongering is utter foolishness.

I'll just raise one issue in answer to the question 'If it's real, then for how long?', which is: 'If you want to know how overwhelmingly important it is that you don't end up there, ask yourself this question -

What kind of hopeless despair must its inhabitants experience that the spotless Son of God, who knew nothing but eternal bliss before entering this world, would not only enter our world of suffering and moral degradation, but allow himself to be derided, spat upon, whipped and then nailed to a cross, feet and hands, only to be cursed by God His Father to save us from it?

Watch this video, and you'll see what I'm getting at:

video.google.com...

Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.

Galatians 3:13

He [=God the Father] made the One who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21

Such an act of immeasurable grace and self-giving love surely had a supreme, overwhelming rescue at its heart.

No wonder what Christ did that day was foretold over the course of thousands of years, in the Old Testament, such as here:

He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face he was despised, and we did not esteem him. Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried; yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastising for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth. By oppresssion and judgement he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?..

...he poured out himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors [=people who had broken God's commandments, i.e. all of us].

Isaiah 53:3-8 & 12

If you never intend to read the Bible at least pause to think on what is written here. It was composed about 700 years before the birth of Christ. It is contained in the manuscripts called the Dead Sea Scrolls, which are dated at 100-335 before Christ. (See here for evidence www.allaboutarchaeology.org... for example. NB - Be sure to read through to the second page.)

I offer further evidence for what lies beyond the grave here: www.belowtopsecret.com...

All I can say is I regard the fact someone passed these things on to me as the most important thing that ever happened or ever will happen to me in my entire lifetime.

God bless.






[edit to correct typos]


[edit on 22/5/08 by pause4thought]

Originally posted by Kaleon
Did you read the links?

Ya, and might I say it's the typical spin I've seen before. The thought of eternal hell makes us people 'hot under the collar' so we try to nerf the idea any way we can.

Originally posted by Kaleon
Ok, I myself am not completely sure of what the bible says about 'the lake of fire' (Gehenna).

It's an interesting read. Always helpful to know what the Bible says before making claims about what it does or does not say.

Originally posted by Kaleon
Is it a place of eternal tornment or eternal death?

Yep.

[edit on 23-5-2008 by saint4God]

To the original soul who posted this question... It's because you do not have understanding of what the will decides on Earth..

People in hell choose to be there and everybody in hell has chosen it.. At the judgement seat God will show everybodies life in review and he will show you what was in peoples hearts..

trust me, noone goes to hell who doesn't want to be there or who hasn't searched in life for God..

The ones who are in hell, their hearts are hardened in hatred towards God and even if they were granted repentance they would still choose to stay in hell because it is what they choose on earth..

people are not going to turn around just because they suffer... Oh now you want forgiveness because you are unhappy without me? while on earth you didn't want anything to do with me. That is a phony conversion and in hell their souls are hardened in hatred..


and Hell is a hard word... it's another word for (eternal spereration) see that sounds alot more gentile but in actuality it is the exact same thing..

as for fire... Not all souls will endure fire, but the most evil ones will as I have heard from the saints.. like Hitler and so forth.. and their state of evil is worthy of hell fire..


Now think about judge, what is it, Lopez, Mathis, whatever judge who you call just on earth...

you trust them correct? yet God reads our hearts and knows our thoughts.. His judgements are far greater then any judge on earth and his judgements will be corrrect...


peace.

At first I'm sorry for my late reaction, but I was very busy (and still am).

@ pause4thought

Originally posted by pause4thought
Such an act of immeasurable grace and self-giving love surely had a supreme, overwhelming rescue at its heart.

- Yes! surely it had a great rescue at hand. But provided, that Gehenna is a place of eternal death (and not torture), this doesn't mean, that the passages you quoted from the bible, wouldn't fit.

- I have seen the video you linked and I have seen from the thread you linked, that you yourself had an NDE.
I believe that you really had this expierience, like I think that most of the others, who say they had NDE's, did really have this expieriences (maybe there are some hoaxes, too, you never know). But I think generally the experiences are real.
Nevertheless, I think the messages they bear, are decieving and against biblical doctrine, and the messages you get are not revelations from god, but rather the opposite. NDE's, I think are lying wonders, like so many other things, like many non biblical prophecies, alien- and angel-channeling and other 'spiritual experiences'.
If these messages are from god, shouldn't they prove exactly what the bible says? But why, if they are from god, are their messages so diverging and why so different from the bible?
If someone finds faith by this, it is great for him. Nevertheless, I think their main purpose is to deceive. Their messages sound rather (or nearly identical) to new age messages and a major part of them seems to be the "experiencing- and feeling-part", like in many new age experiences.
Sure, the degree of falsity and deceitfullness varies from message to message and from expierience to expierience. But I would even go so far to say, that one main purpose of them is ( besides, for instance, the obvios purpose of many experiences, to make people believe, that it doesn't matter which god you worship, they are all the same, just different personifications of the one creator - or that it doesn't matter the morals of which religion you follow ), to make people believe that they go, immediately after their death, into heaven or into hell (in this concept, hell doesn't mean, what I think the bible says about sheol, but a place of eternal torment), because of the many misinterpretations that would follow, if you hold such a view.

(But I do not want to underestimate, that even, when I think that sheol is not the place of torment, so often discribed elsewhere, there is a lake of fire. And independent if you have the opinion, that this place means eternal death or eternal tormenting fire, the worst thing, that could ever happen to you, is to go there)

To see what I mean about the NDE's being lying messages, I think you just have to read some NDE's here: www.near-death.com...

here are some quotes from a few expieriences:

"Then what becomes of the old grouches?"

If they are too bad they go to a realm of lower vibrations where their kind of thoughts can live. If they came here, the Master-Vibration would annihilate them. After death people gravitate into homogenous groups according to the rate
of their soul's vibrations. If the percent of discord in a person is small, it can be eliminated by the Master-Vibration; then the remaining good can live on here.

I suddenly realized that the "God" I had been presented wasn't anything like the reality. I saw that it doesn't matter if you call him God, Allah, Great Spirit or whatever, he is the same thing.

The different religions just have different ways of explaining the same Creator. I also realized that little voice inside us that prompts us to do good things comes from this Creator, it is that light of love inside each of us.
I don't remember specifically being told this, more like I just knew it.

... continued on the next post

[edit on 26-5-2008 by Kaleon]

...

There was Jesus. I was stunned and said, "I don't believe in you."
He smiled and said the etheric equivalent of "tough #," here I am.
Looking at his eyes, I asked, "You mean, you've been with me the whole time and I didn't know?" And his reply was:
"Lo, I am with thee, always, even beyond the end of the world."
Now, I wasn't into "lo" so I said, "Hey, man, this is the seventies and we don't say "lo." Come on."
He kind of grinned, I guess I was amusing him, and he answered, "You want to be reincarnated?"
"Hey, give me a break," I yelled (only I made no sound). "I just died. Don't I get a chance to rest?"
"Take it easy, hold on, it's alright. You can change your mind at any time."
I gasped, "I don't even believe in you and now you want me to reincarnate. Help!"

So please, if anyone wants to discuss what hell really is, only rely on the scripture and leave any other 'sources' out. I think if we do this, we cannot be deceived by lying wonders.

And by the way, I myself am a Catholic, and I believed for a long time that the mary appartitions and modern time Jesus-revelations would be divine and would bear messages from god.
Until I looked for, what the bible says and I was proven wrong. I had to find out that their messages are totally unbiblical and that this messages seem only to be there, to misinterprete the bible, deceive christians, until they finally even rather belief these messages, than the bible. Now I am only a Catholic on the paper.



@Saint4Christ

Ok, it is right that I am unsure of what the bible really says about gehenna, but my unsecurity nearly only comes from 'Revelation 20:10', where it is stated that the antichrist, the false prophet and satan are thrown into a lake of fire and brimstone to be tornmented for ever. (nevertheless this is only stated about these 3 persons).
I cannot remember another bible passage, from which one can conclude, that Gehenna is eternal tornment. Instead of this I can remember some passages that bring me to the conclusion, that gehenna means everlasting anihilation.

And because I am unsecure, doesn't for example mean, that I didn't read the related passages, but that I am not 100% sure (because of Rev. 20:10), that the bible says gehenna is a place, where sinners are eternally destroyed (instead of eternally tortured). Nevertheless I am very convinced of the view (because of certain bible passages), that the unsaved are cast into nonexistence at the great judgement.

Furthermore, one cannot remember all biblepassages 100% at anytime, so I wanted to first look for them again, before I make a more secure statement. But it was late and I was tired and stuff (and I am very busy at the moment), so I wanted to do this another day.
But however, I wanted to give my personal view of that time and post some links for further study that other's might look for themselves at the arguments and bible passages and are able to form their own opinions.

Another point is, that there are certain topics of which we just can't be 100% sure, because the bible doesn't cover them into every detail and lets those things a little bit uncertain, so that we have to look what is the most likely or most logical solution for that problem.
Or the bible uses symbolical
language, that has to be understood and interpreted, that we find out, what scripture really wants to say. (God surely has his reasons for such occurences).

continued on the next post ...



[edit on 26-5-2008 by Kaleon]

...

- Just to give one example of what I mean:

(Revelation 13:11)
Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.

Well, the false Prophet here has horns like a lamb, and Jesus himself in the apocalypse is the lamb. I think it makes sense now and would
be logic to conclude (there are by the way other points outside the bible that would point to that conclusion) that the false prophet will claim to be Jesus (but if this would really be the case, then most likely without the title 'christ'). Or another interpretation, that he will be the pope (who claims to be the representative of Jesus christ on earth).

But the point now, that I want to make is, that I think we can't state such things with the same certainty, as we would for example state, that Jesus died and is risen from the dead.


Well, and with the claim, I think you meant this:

Originally posted by Kaleon
Most people have a wrong concept of what the bible says about 'hell' and the 'lake of fire'.

(Yes, sorry I forgot to include something like a phrase like "I think that most people have a wrong concept about..." . I realised this shortly after I posted it, but very strangely I wasn't logged in anymore immediately after I posted, and even more strangely my password in the loggin scedule was no longer saved, so I had first to go to my email-account to get the password again, and when I came back and logged in, you did already quote my statement, so I kept the old version and didn't change it anymore. Ok this was a little bit unlucky, but doesn't matter ...
Looking afterwards at my claim, I think it could still stand that way, because I'm am relatively sure that there's a difference between gehenna and sheol, and because most people don't know this, most people would really have a wrong concept and the claim would be right. But that just by the way).

Originally posted by saint4God
Ya, and might I say it's the typical spin I've seen before. The thought of eternal hell makes us people 'hot under the collar' so we try to nerf the idea any way we can.

But I would say this can't be the point, by which we make our decision.
It doesn't matter which view makes us hot under the collar and wich doesn't.
We just should make our decision by what the bible says about an issue.
If a certain point is uncomfortable for us, well let it be so and if a certain point is comfortable for us, well let it be so too. We cannot change it, we have to live with it. Everything else would be selfdeceiption.

--> Yes, I would say the concept that gehenna is a place of eternal tornment, is the more uncomfortable view, but this doesn't prove anything, against or for that view.

So I hope we can start now a real discussion about why or why not, hell is the same as the lake of fire and if gehenna is a place of eternal tornment or eternal death.

I think we should start with the question, if sheol is the same as gehenna and which conclusions we could derive, if it isn't.


Unfortunately, you did not make it very clear and concrete , what you think about the links I have posted. So to start a discussion, I hope you can at first tell me:

1.) Do you agree with the view, that gehenna and hell are not the same places. (Why?/Why not?)

2.) If you think they are different places, do you think that sheol (not gehenna) is a place of fire and torment or do you think it is rather a place of unconsciousness (sleep, death, just the grave). (Why/ Why not?)

And by the way, I think I am going to write an e-mail at "liveprayer24" to ask them what they think, for example about (Rev 20:10) or what they think "thrown into hell, where their worm does not die" means.

I myself, am curious about their answer.


[edit on 26-5-2008 by Kaleon]

reply to post by Kaleon

So please, if anyone wants to discuss, what hell really is, only rely on the scripture and leave any other 'sources' out. I think if we do this, we cannot be deceived by lying wonders.

Relying on biblical Scripture is as safe as it gets. I too believe it is God's message to man and entirely trustworthy. It's great to hear you have found this faith too - I'm certainly not going to argue with your main premise!

If you read the whole thread I linked to, you will notice I said, for example:

...as the second video shows, with modern resuscitation techniques more and more people are coming forward and (sometimes reluctantly) admitting that their experience after clinical death affirms that what Moses, the prophets, Christ Himself and the apostles all wrote in the Bible is true.

My purpose it to provide evidence that backs up what the Scriptures say. I see no reason not to accept that on occasion the Lord permits people to return so they can bear witness to the truth.

Remember the man Jesus freed from a terrible affliction who then begged Jesus to let him stay with Him?

...instead He told him, "Go back home to your own people, and report to them how much the Lord has done for you and how He has had mercy on you."

Gospel of Mark 5:19b

Clearly the Lord Himself wishes, even commands some people to proclaim how they have experienced incredible mercy from His hands, freeing them from total hopelessness.

I've been studying the Bible intensely virtually every day for nearly thirty years, and I would not have posted those two videos if I thought they contained deceptions (such as you have come across in other places) which contradict its teaching.

I too believe false miracles mislead people - they are used by false teachers to back up their teaching. I disagree that what these people experienced is related to such things, however. When I saw them I was deeply moved, (as many other viewers have been), knowing they correspond with the Bible's teaching that there are indeed two possible destinations after death, and that only repentance and faith in Christ brings washing from guilt and acceptance into God's holy presence.

I believe the Bible teaches conscious existence for eternity for every one of us. Those who die without having sought forgiveness find themselves in a place where they await resurrection and trial on the Day of Judgement, after which they will be condemned for eternity to separation from God's holy presence and all comfort. (Don't take my word for it, re-read the New Testament, or just the Gospels.)

Those whose moral impurity and rebellion against God's ways has been cleansed and paid for on the Cross find themselves immediately in God's presence where they eagerly await resurrection and entry into the New Heavens and New Earth as foretold and promised since the dawn of God's revelation of Himself to man.

God be praised for His mercy to undeserving sinners like me.

(Incidentally I have not had an NDE in that sense - I have just been very close to death on more than one occasion.)

God made the earth and put animals in it.
God was interested in what the man he created would name the animals.
God wanted someone who was like himself, to commune with.
God realized that the man would get lonely because God was not around all the time. So, God created woman to keep him company.
God wanted man to have powers of choice and free will.
Once Adam fell, that was not really an option.
Adam and Eve had children and that is where we come from.
We do not have the same choices and free will that Adam had, before he fell.
So, we are not put here in order to exercise free will.
We are here just as a continuation of God's promises to the descendants of Adam.
We were not created with some sort of provision for what happens after death.
We are destined to just die, as was warned by God to Adam, if he disobeyed.
The solution to this predicament was not to have man changed into some sort of being that can exist without a physical body.
The solution was for God to raise up a child of Adam who would be an acceptable representative for human kind.
If we reject God's offer, then we go ahead and meet our appointed fate, with no do overs.

No worries about not being 100% sure, it's a difficult number when talking about anything, though I know what the next step Biblically is:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." - James 5:1

Originally posted by Kaleon
Unfortunately, you did not make it very clear and concrete , what you think about the links I have posted.

Apologies for that, I did my best to provide references.

Originally posted by Kaleon
So to start a discussion, I hope you can at first tell me:

1.) Do you agree with the view, that gehenna and hell are not the same places. (Why?/Why not?)

Same same. When you cross-reference Biblically the names they describe the same place. Is God our Lord or our Father? Is Jesus the Christ or the Messiah? Why isn't his name Immanuel? Is Jesus God or is God Jesus? Is Christ man or God?

Originally posted by Kaleon
2.) If you think they are different places, do you think that sheol (not gehenna) is a place of fire and torment or do you think it is rather a place of unconsciousness (sleep, death, just the grave). (Why/ Why not?)

The whole 'sleep, death, just the grave' isn't Biblical. So we can either keep the Book or throw it out. We don't have the luxury of taking parts we like and calling it Christianity.

Originally posted by Kaleon
And by the way, I think I am going to write an e-mail at "liveprayer24" to ask them what they think, for example about (Rev 20:10) or what they think "thrown into hell, where their worm does not die" means.

I myself, am curious about their answer.

I would be surprised if the response was anything other than "parts of the Bible are metaphorical, whereas they speak towards an allegory rather than to the literal"...so if it is something other than that, I'd be glad to hear it as well. The more I've studied the Bible, the more surprised I'd become about how literal the book actually is.

Words of Christ:

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - from Matthew 5:22

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." - from Matthew 5:29

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5

"In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." - Luke 16:23

From someone who traveled with Jesus:

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;" - 2 Peter 2:4

[edit on 27-5-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Kaleon
And no matter if the lake of fire is eternal death or eternal tornment, I personally don't want to go there, and hope to be saved by Jesus Christ.

We don't have to hope for this, we can know it for sure in this lifetime. If you'd like to U2U me, I can give some more details.

reply to post by Equinox99


www.belowtopsecret.com...

i posted in a new thread instead of here, because its simply too much information. the questions you ask are very deep ones that cant easily be explained without certain other things being explained first.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Kaleon\1.) Do you agree with the view, that gehenna and hell are not the same places. (Why?/Why not?)

Same same. When you cross-reference Biblically the names they describe the same place. Is God our Lord or our Father? Is Jesus the Christ or the Messiah? Why isn't his name Immanuel? Is Jesus God or is God Jesus? Is Christ man or God?

rev 20:14?

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

how can a place be thrown into itself?

The whole 'sleep, death, just the grave' isn't Biblical. So we can either keep the Book or throw it out. We don't have the luxury of taking parts we like and calling it Christianity.

i thought for it to be "bibical" it has to be in the bible

eccl 9:5,10? ezekial 18:4? psalm 146:4? john 11:11-14? 1 thess 4:14? luke 8:52?

alot of scriptures for something not biblical

Originally posted by miriam0566
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

how can a place be thrown into itself?

The same way someone can die twice.

Originally posted by miriam0566
i thought for it to be "bibical" it has to be in the bible

Correct.

These scriptures do not negate the one I quoted:

Originally posted by miriam0566
eccl 9:5,10?

It's true, the dead know nothing. Try talking to a dead person sometime.

Originally posted by miriam0566
ezekial 18:4?

Revelation says how they die. This one merely states they do die.

Originally posted by miriam0566
psalm 146:4?

Of course their plans come to nothing. They're dead. Have you known any human to physically fulfill their plans post-mortem?

Originally posted by miriam0566
john 11:11-14?

Lazarus was dead. What's the debate about here?

Originally posted by miriam0566
1 thess 4:14?

Yes, we die too. Then are resurrected, keep reading.

Originally posted by miriam0566
luke 8:52?

She was asleep and not dead...again, where's the dispute?

Originally posted by miriam0566
alot of scriptures for something not biblical

A lot of scriptures only containing the word dead. Fine. I did not say "we do not die", I said AFTER we die, there's more to the story. And, indeed there is. Again, how do any of these scriptures negate Revelation or the unquoted portions of the gospel and epistles?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by miriam0566
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

how can a place be thrown into itself?

The same way someone can die twice.

incomparible, a person can be resurrected and then die/be killed again. it is completely illogical that a place can be thrown into itself.

the scripture blantenly and obviously is refering to 2 separate things.

A lot of scriptures only containing the word dead. Fine. I did not say "we do not die", I said AFTER we die, there's more to the story. And, indeed there is. Again, how do any of these scriptures negate Revelation or the unquoted portions of the gospel and epistles?

ok.... after we die and are resurrected

john 5:[28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

has the resurrection happened yet?

2 tim 2:[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

no it hasnt, that means everyone who has died is still dead (sleeping). when does the resurrection happen?

1 corinthians 15:[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

at christ´s coming will they be resurrected

matt 24:3-7 signs of christs presence.

so yes your belief that hell is a place of torment does conflict with the bible. just abit.

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - from Matthew 5:22

cross reference this with hebrews 10:[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Gehenna was a place of destruction, plain and simple. jesus was warning them that they would not be resurrected, they would stay dead....

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." - from Matthew 5:29

which is completely true, better to be alive with a missing part than dead

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Luke 12:5

again the word for hell here is literally gehenna. a place of destruction, for him to say this to the jews of the time, they had to know what he was talking about. Gehenna was a place they threw the bodies of criminals.

"In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." - Luke 16:23

read the whole parable including the context. the scripture is not as obvious as it sounds. i also discuss this in another thread ¨why do we die...¨

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;" - 2 Peter 2:4

the word for hell here is not hades or gehenna. its tartaroo. which is fitting since they are not dead. and they are there awaiting judgement, not suffering after judgement