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Maybe We Should Keep Them There

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posted on May, 7 2008 @ 10:32 PM
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Maybe instead of releasing prisoners from Gitmo due to political pressures, we need to be keeping them locked up...


Ex-Guantanamo prisoner carried out Iraq suicide attack
By Associated Press
CNSNews.com
May 07, 2008

San Juan, Puerto Rico (AP) - The U.S. military is confirming that a former Guantanamo detainee from Kuwait carried out a recent suicide attack in northern Iraq.

A spokesman for U.S. military's Central Command told The Associated Press on Wednesday that Abdallah Salih al-Ajmi took part in an attack in Mosul.

U.S. Navy Cmdr. Scott Rye says authorities don't know the motive for the attack, which was reported last week by Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television. Iraqi security forces were apparently targeted.

The U.S. transferred al-Ajmi to Kuwaiti custody from Guantanamo in 2005. A Kuwaiti court later acquitted him of terrorism charges.

CNS News

I guess we can safely assume that his acquittal was a mistake..

Semper




posted on May, 8 2008 @ 01:34 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Do you know how many people die in automobile accidents every year? Hell, I've nearly died at least once myself.

Who can say they have ever even been in the same city as a suicide bomber detonating himself/herself?

You have more worthwhile things to worry about.

[edit on 8-5-2008 by bsbray11]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 01:39 AM
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The issue of torture aside I am generally supportive of Guantanamo bay and the detention of enemy combants(SP?) . 9-11 was a watershed event that required new laws and ways of dealing with detainees. This is something that a lot of people have over looked . Even in some of the more democratic Muslim country's terrorists can get off with just a slap on the wrist .

Covert assassination would seem to be the best way of dealing with the big fish who escape either justice or death on the battlefield.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Who can say they have ever even been in the same city as a suicide bomber detonating himself/herself?


I would like to see you ask that question in Iraq or even Afghanistan.


[edit on 8-5-2008 by xpert11]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11

Originally posted by bsbray11
Who can say they have ever even been in the same city as a suicide bomber detonating himself/herself?


I would like to see you ask that question in Iraq or even Afghanistan.


I wouldn't have said it in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The whole point of this propaganda over here is to inspire exactly the kind of sentiment the OP expresses: "maybe we should keep them there."

Maybe we should keep you there: you are a bigger threat to my freedom, than someone opposing US interests in the Mid-East, which spawned an ill-founded and fatal endeavor that deserves to fail.

[edit on 8-5-2008 by bsbray11]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I guess we can safely assume that his acquittal was a mistake..


Alternatively, you could postulate that being rendered and imprisoned without trial for a period by the US Government might just have given the guy an impetus to go out and do something stupid?

Sometimes, people get driven into things.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:45 AM
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Well it looks like we have another person who lets there political views get in the way rational thinking . I'm am no fan of the US venture in Iraq but I would never go as low as to suggest let people who set out to kill innocent people should be set free just because I don't agree with current US policy .

Propaganda ?
Give me a break the terrorist attacks including the likes of the Bali Bombings are very real .
Where exactly is over here ?

No one in there right mind should want to let these nut jobs out from behind bars . But hey maybe its a sign of how far society has sunk or more accurately become warped when often in one breath we have support for torture and in the next instance someone wants to free those who would kill those of differnt ethnic background en mass .



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by neformore
Alternatively, you could postulate that being rendered and imprisoned without trial for a period by the US Government might just have given the guy an impetus to go out and do something stupid?


Nice try but if al-Ajmi wanted to highlight the fact he claimed to be wronfully detained he could have taken legal action against the US government . Even if his case wasn't successful which is quiet likely the media would have had a field day which would have lead to an open public debate on this issue . Suicide attacks are a partially the result of the culture that these nut jobs come back .

The notion that propaganda is the cause of my views is one of the most absurd things I have ever read on ATS. For that logic to have any weight what so ever suicide attacks by the enemy would have fictional.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Nice try but if al-Ajmi wanted to highlight the fact he claimed to be wronfully detained he could have taken legal action against the US government .


So...you think that the country that illegally detained him without a trial - initially without recourse to its own legal system until the Supreme Court stepped in (with opposition to its actions from the standing administration) and held him prisoner for a period of time is going to give him a fair crack of the whip challenging his detention?

Really? Do you?



My irony sense is tingling.....



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 05:15 AM
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Neformore go back and read what I said that before you jump to conclusions .
I never said that he would have had a successful recourse open to him . All I pointed out was that he could have drawn attention to his supposed plight . The detainees have gotten there share of media coverage . But hey he well and truly proved that his only interest was the cold blooded murder of innocent people . There is no defence for his actions nor for the calls for these nuts to be freed so they can increase the business morgues are doing.

Maybe those who think otherwise have shares in a chain of morgues that operate in Iraq.


[edit on 8-5-2008 by xpert11]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


That Liberal idea of "Being Driven" to a crime, was brought before the Supreme Court on more than one occasion and each and every time, the courts have said it is false to assume such drivel... (US SC Didn't actually say drivel.. :lol


If you want to go there, you can "MAKE AN EXCUSE" for anyones actions...

Semper



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Let me ask you this:

If you had been detained without trial, legal recourse of any kind, maltreated, tortured, kept from your family and friends for something you hadn't done by a foreign agressor nation, would you want a little revenge?

Sorry semper, but this is not a liberal ideal - some people become what they are because circumstances have forced limited options upon them.

Whether this is one of those cases, I can't say - but to dismiss the idea out of hand is unworthy of you.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by xpert11
 


I did read it - you'd be suprised how much I read, goes with the territory you know?


But I wonder if you read my original one properly?

Imagine if someone that you'd never seen before came along, today, and arrested a drug dealer in your neighbourhood. And then they arrested everyone on the block as well because the dealer was there.

Then imagine that - following your arrest - your hands and feet were shackled, a blindfold hood was put over your head and you were loaded into a military cargo plane, and transported in it for several hours before arriving at your destination, where you were stripped, searched, shaved, given a one-size fits all coverall and put into a cell, withou recourse to a lawyer or a right to appeal being there.

Imagine then, a few days later, being asked - repeatedly - who the dealer was and what your connection was to them, and why you were living in your house at the time, and what you were doing in the vicinity of said drug dealer.

And then being left for a few days, and then having that cycle repeat.

And then imagine being told in no uncertain terms that you may be charged with a crime - by association of being in the vicinity of the dealer - and having no recourse to outside legal protection. Your family doesn't know where you are, and you have no idea what has happened to them.

And every day you wake up - over the period of a year/two years/more you still have no real knowledge of where you are and why you are there.

Imagine then, one day, those people put you back on a plane and send you home.

Are you actually going to feel particularly inclined to liking them after they've stolen a portion of your life away - for no apparent reason?

The difference between how you are looking at this and how I'm looking at it is this - I'm not excusing what the guy eventually did. I'm not condoning it at all. The man killed people and theres never any excuse for that BUT -what I am doing is looking beyond the action as to why he may have taken the course of action.

You appear to have just slapped the "terrorist" label on him without thinking about that.

See - if someone invades the UK, and then sends me to prison 5000 miles away for several years, I don't think I'd be particularly inclined to be nice to them. I may not go and blow people up afterwards, but angry people tend to do weird things, don't they?



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 07:55 AM
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Well some background info seem to put your wild speculation or straw man to bed. Beside your argument has a couple holes to begin the first is that people who hang around a drug dealer which is the example you gave are likely to be law breakers themselves. Also people don't usually commit crimes after being wrongfully imprisoned and prisoners are often captured in large numbers at the front.



1. The detainee went AWOL from the Kuwaiti military in order to travel to Afghanistan to participate in the Jihad.
2. The detainee was issued an AK-47, ammunition and hand grenades by the Taliban.


Source

Its nearly 1am so I need to get some sleep rather then track down other sources .

Really what is happening isnt all that differnt from the way members of the SS were held behind the wire in post war Germany while the allies figured who they were going to put on trial .



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Well some background info seem to put your wild speculation or straw man to bed.


Well i did use the word "imagine" quite alot - it was speculation, and also an attempt to bring in a slightly different thought process into the argument.

I do find



people who hang around a drug dealer which is the example you gave are likely to be law breakers themselves.


Just a bit disturbing, because it makes a bucket load of assumptions.

I notice you didn't put his defence testimony - that is included in the same wiki article you linked - in there


I mean, if you are going to accuse me of putting a straw man argument into the conversation, then you really ought to be quoting the full details from your sources instead of cherry picking the bits that suit your argument



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 08:29 AM
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This thread is full of apologist for US dirty actions, when it comes to none Americans lives.

Deny Ignorance,

Our nation have taken prisoners, people in their own lands, torture them and abuse them, destroyed their way of live and their nations cities, then while still invading these people's lands they expect the invaded people to just sit there and submit like littler good trained dogs to their occupation masters.

Even I will fight with everything I got if my nation got invaded by a despotic regime as our so call liberator government is behaving in their lands, I will be call a patriot but we call them terrorists.

Yes even our nation have an ugly face that can not be hide.



[edit on 8-5-2008 by marg6043]



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by budski
If you had been detained without trial, legal recourse of any kind, maltreated, tortured, kept from your family and friends for something you hadn't done by a foreign agressor nation, would you want a little revenge?


Wait a minute, are you going to argue that the prisoners down at GITMO are being tortured? Where is your proof of that?



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 11:05 AM
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COOLHAND

There's proof aplenty here on ATS.

Use the search function - even the presidents office have admitted it.

I'm not going to argue semantics or definitions of torture with you - do some research as to what constitutes torture, and take off the pro-shrub blinkers.

This is not an abstract debate - this is happening to real people, and it's disgusting that it's being done in the name of the american people.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by budski
COOLHAND

There's proof aplenty here on ATS.

Use the search function - even the presidents office have admitted it.

Not at GITMO they didn't.




This is not an abstract debate - this is happening to real people, and it's disgusting that it's being done in the name of the american people.


So, you are opposed to using torture to gain information from terrorists? Are you willing to be other people's lives on that?



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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Yes, at gitmo they did - use the search function, do your own research.

This thread also isn't about torture, and I'm not going to derail it - and before you say I brought it up, I brought it up in context.

Now please take your strawmen back to the wheatfields - I have no use for them.



posted on May, 8 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


So you don't believe in due process? Because that's the only stance you can possibly take that will allow anyone to be locked up for anything without any evidence to suggest they've committed a crime.

You note he committed the crime after he was in Guantanamo. Maybe the fact he was in a prison camp for years, without being charged with anything, only to be acquitted, was enough for him to want to get some revenge from the country that imprisoned him for no reason?

I imagine if you were arrested by North Koreans and taken to some remote North Korean island for years, kept in a chain-link cage, routinely "interrogated", and finally released without them ever finding you guilty of something, you'd not be too happy with them.

It's attitudes like yours that fuel the claims of Al Qaida and other Islamic jihadis. It's the same attitude that's OK with permanently putting troops in foreign countries for no reason, like Saudi Arabia. It's the same attitude that makes it OK to invade a sovereign country for no reason, like Iraq. It's also the same attitude that thinks it's a great idea to rattle sabres in the direction of Iran. You should be ashamed of yourself.




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