Why the jump in thought?

I would like to ask a serious and pensive question to all who attend this particular forum on ATS.

Why the jump in thought to assume that any and all things that cannot be explained or put into known parameters, must be alien of a UFO (alien origin I mean)? Yes, the idea fascinates me as well, but to make the assumption that what cannot be described as alien....well, it's actually quite a fault in my opinion. Why can't our higher intelliegent scientists creat such things? Why must they be from a distant galaxy and be here to observe us?

If they(the aliens) were, wouldn't we(the humans) be the proverbial ants trying to look towards the skies to understand the greater species...which in fact we probably could not even begin to understand their existence in the very first place!?

I know we are all from a science fiction/fantasy era, but it really undermines human achievement and development to say that what technolgy that we( as lehman) don't understand must be from a vast and intellectually superior species. Just some thoughts, and of course I would love to hear yours. In fact what I would hope for is some serious discussion and debate on this subject. No doubt, there will be some dummy who will flame and spam all over it, it has to be assumed as well.

Looking forward to some logical thoughts, whichever side of the fence you may be on!

Peace, Mondo

Online Etymology Dictionary
alien (adj.)
1340, "strange, foreign," from O.Fr. alien, from L. alienus "of or belonging to another," adj. form of alius "(an)other" (see alias). Meaning "of another planet" first recorded 1944 in science fiction writing; the noun in this sense is from 1953. The noun sense of "foreigner" is first attested 1330. An alien priory (1502) is one owing obedience to a mother abbey in a foreign country.

dictionary.reference.com...

I think you should first take into context the meaning of the word Alien. and then maybe we can look at this.....to see how we have now used this new explanation for something older maybe.....just a thought. How funny that the word has a religious history.

Aliens have begun to fill the role previously reserved for supernatural beings. Experiences once explained by benevolent or malevolent spirits, then later through angels and devils, now have good and bad aliens as possible explanations. A good example of this would be sleep paralysis: today some have claimed that episodes of sleep paralysis are really incidents of alien abduction, but their reports are eerily similar to much older reports of people being seduced by demons.

web.search.cornell.edu... CFTOKEN=72013063







[edit on 24-4-2008 by atlasastro]

Well okay, you believe there are no Aliens/Non-Earth Born Humanoid Beings here on planet Earth and subsequently, No Alien Space Craft..right? Everything that everyone is saying about all of this is either a lie, their imagination or mis-identication, right?

So, all this people are lying or mentally ill or mistaken, right?

www.netro.ca...

...and Col. Corso was lying:

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...


and Philip Schneider he's a liar or was a liar since he's dead:
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

...and this...this Alien is a fake, right?
www.youtube.com...

...and 9-11 was not a planned False Flag Demolition orchestrated by the CIA and we invaded Iraq to liberate them.

Well, everyone has to believe what gets them through the day

i can get what you are saying.....but can't we apply the same rational and list of testimonies and web links to every othe major religion and belief and then cast the same aspersions on their mental state, honesty or intellect. and ultimately you are right.....whatever gets us by....whilst not hurting each other i might add....

I love this quote for us.

The vast majority of humans are fantasy prone, otherwise they would not believe in God, angels, spirits, immortality, devils, ESP, Bigfoot, etc. A person can function "normally" in a million and one ways and hold the most irrational beliefs imaginable, as long as the irrational beliefs are culturally accepted delusions. Little effort is put forth to try to find out why people believe the religious stories they believe, for example, but when someone holds a view outside of the culture's accepted range of delusional phenomena, there seems to be a need to "explain" their beliefs.
skepdic.com...

[edit on 24-4-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
Why the jump in thought to assume that any and all things that cannot be explained or put into known parameters, must be alien of a UFO (alien origin I mean)? Yes, the idea fascinates me as well, but to make the assumption that what cannot be described as alien....well, it's actually quite a fault in my opinion. Why can't our higher intelliegent scientists creat such things? Why must they be from a distant galaxy and be here to observe us?

Hello Mondo. You are obviously putting some thought into this question. I understand your dillema. However, there are some cases where this isn't a 'jump in thought' it's merely the next most likely solution, following Occam's Razor.

Of course each case must be examined individually, and they cannot be lumped together.

The case I'll use as an example here, is the Battle of Los Angeles.
It has now been over 60 years since this event, so anything that was classified (I'm talking about Human military aircraft) would well be in the public record by now.

There simply is no explanation for an object that could withstand that sort of punishment back in 1942.

There was a theory that there was no object at all, and that it was an illusion caused by overlapping searchlights, but that theory was soundly put to rest by the tremendous amount of eyewitness accounts from military personnel. Now if you're of the opinion that that testimony is not good enough evidence, there is also the radar returns from the object (could not have been from a temperature inversion, because the object was tracked at over 300 mph headed for the California coast).

There is also photographic evidence. I've disected the photo fairly well in my thread on the case, and due to the fact that the searchlights stop where the object is (as opposed to continuing on past the overlap point with the other beams) there appears to be a solid object in the photo blocking the light from those beams at the point where they intersect.

Add to all of this the Army Air Force (this was before the Air Force was a seperate branch) confirmed the incident, and even went so far as to argue with the War Dept. (former name for the Dept of Defense) and the Navy when the Army Air Force's story was called into question.

The Navy's attack on their story made no sense, and ignored the radar return data, visual eyewitness testimony, the evidence of the LA Times photo, and the physical evidence of unexploded and exploded shells on the streets of LA.

To make an 8 page thread's story fairly short, I also tested the available evidence against several planes (both Japanese and American) that were in service at the time. NONE fit the bill. Not even the plane I tested that was still classified at the time, and reportedly not in active service until later in the year, and into 1943.


I guess basically what I'm saying here is that sometimes it isn't necessarily a 'jump in thought'. Sometimes it's the next most rational and logical solution.

This craft wasn't from Earth. If it were, the country that developed it would surely have used it to win WW2. And CERTAINLY the specs of the craft would be available by now on the public record, if it belonged to us or one of our enemies.

My .02 cents

-WFA

p.s. the thread is linked in my signature if you'd like to check it out.

[edit on 24-4-2008 by WitnessFromAfar]

reply to post by Mondogiwa


I think people tend to use the terms UFO and Alien interchangeably (which has been discussed in several threads of late) and to me, that is a mistake. UFO means exactly that; Unidentified Flying Object. That in no way should automatically convey Alien in origin. However, there are things that people have witnessed which simply cannot be easily categorized. Is it possible that some of these sightings are black-ops type aircraft? Absolutely. And probably the vast majority of the sightings are simply misidentified. But what about that 1% that doesn't fall into those categories?

I am often frustrated by the pseudo-skeptical position that intergalactic travel is impossible because our current understanding of science will not allow for it. Who is to say that an intelligent species millions of years more advanced hasn't overcome the challenges to understanding that we still labor under? Many things may be improbable, but that doesn't make them impossible.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Originally posted by atlasastro
i can get what you are saying.....but can't we apply the same rational and list of testimonies and web links to every othe major religion and belief and then cast the same aspersions on their mental state, honesty or intellect. and ultimately you are right.....whatever gets us by....whilst not hurting each other i might add....

No, in fact we can not apply the same rational and list of testimonie to major religions; not even the writers of the Bible knew Jesus and no Religious Figure is providing photographic and physical proof of anything they put forth.

Moreover, I sure as hell am glad Pat Roberts isn't in charge of any of our missle installations. Unlike the "Religious Types" who want to see God, pray to see God, beg to see God, I don't see any of these people in the military and FAA happy about their encounter and it is at great risk to some of them opening their mouths. Do you think these people are paid? Paid for what they put themselves through to come forard? On the other hand, do Ministers and Priest benefit from there claims to be in contact with God?

I have to wonder, do you think our Government are honest? If so, why don't they really come out and put all this to rest? Diversion? Was Jimmy Carter told "No Way" by the then Director of the CIA George Bush when he asked for full disclosure about UFO because they have nothing to hide?

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. The Governemtn depends on the skeptic but it is a game they will soon lose.

Originally posted by MajKarma
Well okay, you believe there are no Aliens/Non-Earth Born Humanoid Beings here on planet Earth and subsequently, No Alien Space Craft..right? Everything that everyone is saying about all of this is either a lie, their imagination or mis-identication, right?

So, all this people are lying or mentally ill or mistaken, right?

www.netro.ca...

...and Col. Corso was lying:

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...


and Philip Schneider he's a liar or was a liar since he's dead:
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

...and this...this Alien is a fake, right?
www.youtube.com...
...

Yeah -- maybe they are lying or mistaken or prone to fantasy (and I'm not saying they definitely are or are not). The world is full of people from all walks of life who lie about things and make up stories for sometimes inexplicable reasons, or sometimes for reasons of greed.

I personally know an individual who is prone to fantasy stories and makes things up for no tangible reason (i.e., no monetary gain) -- and had been proven to be making things up. And this person was somewhat in a respected position of power. He either did this for "kicks" or he actually believed in his own manufactured fantasies.

Why should the UFO phenomenon be immune to people like this, these people who are prone to fantasy? The rest of the world isn't immune to them.




[edit on 4/24/2008 by Soylent Green Is People]

reply to post by JeepGal


I always balk at that term "millions of years" advanced over we poor idiot humans. Now I do agree with you about the very real POSSIBILITY of an ET connection in certain encounters, the LA event as told and researched by WFA being a prime example. But that doesn't mean "Millions of years ahead of us", just different technology.

Look at it this way. Many interesting inventions and schools of thought, which have led us to where we now are, came about through leaps of genius, accidental discoveries, and "nutters" who believed they could do things everyone knew impossible. But there wasn't a blueprint for the road of man's progress. Any of a number of paths might have been taken.

Technology, ours and any hypothetical alien's, need not be separated by all that much time. A two hundred year headstart would be enough, coupled with having taken a different path to their tech level, to cause us to not be able to duplicate such craft. There is every reason to think that within the next couple of centuries, we will be able to at least send real time probes to other star systems, and maybe actual human explorers.

Unfortunately, it is easy to assume that because "they" can do things that we cannot, that "they" must be some sort of demi-gods. This leads to the whole "space brothers" religion thing, which in turn leads to more imagination coming into the whole fabric of the UFOs concept.

For me, it's really simple. There are reports of unknown objects in Earth's airspace. Now this should cause a certain amount of investigation, if for no reason except curiosity. Many of the reports are mis-identified "normal" aircraft and naturally occurring phenomenon. Some are likely concept craft being tested by the various military of the world. The remaining number must then logically be from some source so far unknown.

There is a logical progression when one views things without self placed restrictions either of fear or worship, and a desire for nothing but the truth about UFOs. There is also a liberation in the ability to NOT start with a preconceived idea and then try to fit the (few) facts into a story. It is my hope to find answers about the small percentage of actual "unknown" objects, no matter where these objects come from. And I cannot be truthful in looking if I arbitrarily rule out the possibility that these objects are in fact from some place other than the Earth we all know and love.

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
Why the jump in thought to assume that any and all things that cannot be explained or put into known parameters, must be alien of a UFO (alien origin I mean)?

As others have noted, it has to do with the extreme edges of the reports, as well as the volume of reports at the edges. We acknowledge that a very, very large percentage of the reports are most likely misidentification of either mundane objects, black project aircraft or meteorological phenomena. But there are too many reports, and aspects of those reports (such as odd time dilation and "psychic" effects) that suggest they can't even be put into the "unknown" categories listed above. They're just way beyond what can be expected from even the most advanced black project aircraft or weather phenomena.

I, personally, don't like to immediately jump to the alien beings from space explanation, because I haven't seen good enough positive proof to make that determination. My personal tendency is to lean either toward some kind of time travel, or some other kind of trans-dimensional shift happening. Other explanations, such as physical manifestations of thought forms, are also possibilities, even though they rest on very shaky theoretical ground. They also require positive proof good enough to get past "unknown" on the ladder of possible explanations. And so far, we don't have that positive proof.

So at this point, I personally prefer to think of these fringe sightings as purely unknown. In fact, they may even be unknowable, given our inherent perceptive and cognitive limitations. I wait and watch, hoping that maybe one day some kind of explanation might be found for at least some of the stranger sightings.

Of course, just because one UFO might ultimately be explained as an alien spaceship, logically, that isn't going to explain all the sightings of the past, present, and future. Some may be aliens. Others may be tulpas and thought forms. So the mystery is likely to remain for a long time.

Originally posted by NGC2736
reply to post by JeepGal

 

I always balk at that term "millions of years" advanced over we poor idiot humans. Now I do agree with you about the very real POSSIBILITY of an ET connection in certain encounters, the LA event as told and researched by WFA being a prime example. But that doesn't mean "Millions of years ahead of us", just different technology.

Look at it this way. Many interesting inventions and schools of thought, which have led us to where we now are, came about through leaps of genius, accidental discoveries, and "nutters" who believed they could do things everyone knew impossible. But there wasn't a blueprint for the road of man's progress. Any of a number of paths might have been taken.

Technology, ours and any hypothetical alien's, need not be separated by all that much time. A two hundred year headstart would be enough, coupled with having taken a different path to their tech level, to cause us to not be able to duplicate such craft. There is every reason to think that within the next couple of centuries, we will be able to at least send real time probes to other star systems, and maybe actual human explorers.

Unfortunately, it is easy to assume that because "they" can do things that we cannot, that "they" must be some sort of demi-gods. This leads to the whole "space brothers" religion thing, which in turn leads to more imagination coming into the whole fabric of the UFOs concept.

For me, it's really simple. There are reports of unknown objects in Earth's airspace. Now this should cause a certain amount of investigation, if for no reason except curiosity. Many of the reports are mis-identified "normal" aircraft and naturally occurring phenomenon. Some are likely concept craft being tested by the various military of the world. The remaining number must then logically be from some source so far unknown.

There is a logical progression when one views things without self placed restrictions either of fear or worship, and a desire for nothing but the truth about UFOs. There is also a liberation in the ability to NOT start with a preconceived idea and then try to fit the (few) facts into a story. It is my hope to find answers about the small percentage of actual "unknown" objects, no matter where these objects come from. And I cannot be truthful in looking if I arbitrarily rule out the possibility that these objects are in fact from some place other than the Earth we all know and love.

You make a very good point. My "millions of years" was just a hypothetical way of saying that another race that is technologically more advanced than we are (or as you say, has taken a different path) could have overcome those limitations we currently have and traveled here from across the vast distances of space.

PS. NGC 2736 is a really beautiful nebula. Is that why you chose the name?

reply to post by Mondogiwa


Well lets see. Most of the time F-16s dont float in the middle of the sky. Let alone, float in formation.

Most of the time, that I know, Floating objects dont shoot from point to point of the sky.

And thats my own witness of age 10. I was not on drugs and I did not hallucinate the flying/floating/darting object. It move from point to point of the sky with no problem. I think your explanation fails.


Phail.

I would say attributing UFOs to advanced off-world intelligences is better than attributing it to gods, demons, or fairies wouldn't you think? Its certainly a step in a direction away from fiction and myth and at least in the realm of scientific possibility.

[edit on 4/25/2008 by Cuhail]

Originally posted by MajKarma

No, in fact we can not apply the same rational and list of testimonie to major religions; not even the writers of the Bible knew Jesus and no Religious Figure is providing photographic and physical proof of anything they put forth.

In fact i can, and i will. The New testament is an eyewitness account of Jesus, a man. By other men. Just like John Lear and the Col.
You cannot just say that the bible is the only source of material relating to the religious paranormal. That is just plain ridiculous and you know it. How many documented experiences of visions, miracles etc......i bet there are just as many photos of stigmata, weeping statues, eye witness accounts of healings as there are of flying saucers, alien autopsies and alien abduction experience. And just as many fakes of both......but hey, thats not like a photo of a ball of light in the sky....we got proof......of what....a ball of light. it works both ways and i am not argueing that either is right but that they have many parrallel that we cannot Deny. And i find it a valid arguement for the growing trend in belief in and around the UFO, Alien topic.

Moreover, I sure as hell am glad Pat Roberts isn't in charge of any of our missle installations. Unlike the "Religious Types" who want to see God, pray to see God, beg to see God,

I could pose the same argument using extreme views from under UFO and Alien Abduction Experience and Contactee umbrella......like say Scientology, Hale Bopp, yep....lets go to the irrational to account for all views shall we. I don't know why you are even mentioning nuclear weapons, who should we put them in the hands of..... Col. Corso, David Icke maybe.

I don't see any of these people in the military and FAA happy about their encounter and it is at great risk to some of them opening their mouths. Do you think these people are paid? Paid for what they put themselves through to come forard? On the other hand, do Ministers and Priest benefit from there claims to be in contact with God?

If you look at the history of religion you will see the same pattern of persecution and treatment of people who experience unexplained phenomena or hold alternative beliefs and come out with revelations against the establishment......exsorcisms, burnings at the stake, drownings, how about Jesus, he was'nt nailed to some wood for saying he was abducted......don't see that happening these days do you. Just a stigma. When was the last time you heard someone in any mainstream church say they talk Directly to God. It cuts both ways. So we don't see people benefiting from alien abduction stories......come on....get real. Whitely did pretty good out of communion. Raelism is'nt exactly poor, how about the Celebrity centre in LA for those thetans. ATS has not done to bad.
Come on. The Col., hows he doing.

I have to wonder, do you think our Government are honest? If so, why don't they really come out and put all this to rest? Diversion? Was Jimmy Carter told "No Way" by the then Director of the CIA George Bush when he asked for full disclosure about UFO because they have nothing to hide?

what Govt. is honest. None that i know. If the majority of people believed in Aliens, i have no doubt our leaders would be up there saying...." In Grey we Trust", at the moment the majority believe in God.....so they use that instead....you know that as well as I. Even if they did come out with difinative evidence saying aliens have not made contact.......CoverUP....thats what we would hear.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. The Governemtn depends on the skeptic but it is a game they will soon lose.

I agree, but what you are saying to me screams of the blind trying to lead the blind. You have to entertain the same doubts as any rational person that what you believe could be wrong, otherwise you fall into the same catagory as your friend Pat Richards.

[edit on 24-4-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by Frith
I would say attributing UFOs to advanced off-world intelligences is better than attributing it to gods, demons, or fairies wouldn't you think? Its certainly a step in a direction away from fiction and myth and at least in the realm of scientific possibility.

Not necessarily. Aliens are just as unproven to exist as demons or fairies, so what's the difference? And if we go back and redefine demons using more modern scientific technobabble -- coherent personality structures existing in quasi-stable energy fields -- then they fit the bill just about as well as aliens.

Yeah, there's a bit of a problem if we're assuming that the wierd UFOs are real, nuts-and-bolts machines of some kind. How can a demon make a machine? But nobody's shown me actual pieces of such a craft anyway, whether made by aliens or demons, so I'm not sure they're entirely "real" as we define reality in the first place. We can see and take pictures and sometimes sense them, but would they be damaged if you shot a bullet at them? Don't know.

Folks,

I apologize for being late to my own discussion here, but after reading all the above posts and responses, allow me to clear a few things up.

To start, I have not mentioned what my belief is or is not in this area...merely an observation that there seems to be a "jump" to make the claim that things that cannot be explained by using traditional methods are "alien". Yes, I have a background in military aviation so I tend to be biased, mainly because I have been a part, albeit a very small part, to seeing technology that at that time was bewildering. So, with that in mind, I do believe that we, "unintelligent" human beings can in fact create some "out of this world stuff".

I do in fact use 'Occam's Razor' in most situations as well, and that is a very great point you make. However, I guess it comes to this, when I see things that do not fit into the proverbial "box", I tend to say to myself, "Wow, that's incredible...I wonder what it may be". That's all, no need to go any further than that at that moment in time yet....period!

As far as Dr. Reed and Dr. Corso...well, you are totally entitiled to believe whatever you choose, and I choose to not believe in their claims. I have read all of the stories that you have listed and although they are entertaining, they leave me with a very large doubt factor.

Listen friends, and I mean that honestly and sincerely, that's the reason I wrote on this subject to you! I think nearly all of the responses are great so far, and they leave me with lots to think of at the moment. I am not simple minded enough to not be open to any number of possibilities out there, but so far as I can deduce at the moment.....nothing yet has proven anything yet! Yes, there are a great many mysteries, but again, that's not to say they must have extravagant explanations either..then again, maybe they will prove to at a later time.

Peace and please let's keep this discussion going.........
Mondo

reply to post by Mondogiwa


Wow, we get off topic here rather quick don't we?

By your avatar I'm betting your millitary and you've recently seen some black-ops stuff that totaly explains UFOs away as haveing been human the whole time, in your mind?

I've seen that stuff too, 1st hand infact, but I still don't doubt there are beings here from distant stars. Where do YOU think we humans got the jump in thought from jets to gravity drive? Look how advanced the ME262 German jet was at the end of the war, Americans were behind the curve, and the Britts barely got thiers flying in time to catch the last few buzz bombs, so how did we go from THAT to gravity drive in just a few years?

Besides I think you misunderstand, I think most people who talk about UFOs know that 99% of them are millitary craft or venus or swamp gas, but that those just aren't as interesting, so they don't go on and on about temprature inversions or even the latest stealth fighter.

Like Stewy told Brian, "and remember, wether you think you can or you think you can't, your right!". It will never hurt you to have your mental horizens as wide open as possible, but it can hurt to have them too closed. What does it hurt to think that the outragous COULD be true? What does it HELP to think that only a normal explination explains everything? Contrary to popular belief, no ones brain has ever fallen out by haveing too open a mind, except in the case if the hippie tripanners who drilled holes in thier skulls so they could feel high all the time, LMAO. But even thier brains didn't fall out of the holes.

Turn about is fair play, so why aren't you capable of making the mental jump in thought that its possible ETs are here, and have been here, and not all UFOs are ball lightning or stealth bombers?

Never done the Drake equation? Unless your feeling pressure to join a UFO cult, and looking for polite reasons to say no, I don't see the point in the mental exersize of explaining away everything as normal. Occam's razor is great for us machanics looking for a leaky seal, but it sets your sights a bit too low when dealing with most other stuff. I'm more a fan of Holmes's method of illiminating the impossible explinations and what ever is left is the most likely, even if not probable.

reply to post by Mondogiwa


Interesting perspective Mondogwia,

IMHO, I kind of think it's egotistical to believe that humans (at this point in history) created the anti-grav UFO's that we see in the sky today. I honestly don't believe this way-out technology has Earth Origins. If that was the case, the world would now be a very different place geopolitically (if we could mass produce such things). Think about it for a minute.

There'd be no need for secrecy and it would now be so common place that it would be mundane because if we could mass produce them, we would have. Like all technologies they eventually find applications in the commercial sector.

I also find the issue of Aliens being superior to us a contentious one. I think you really need to define what superior means. If I walk up to a native in the middle of the Amazon with my iPod, GPS and Mobile Phone, am I closer to god when I compare it to the sticks and stones in his hand? Is he an ant in the grand scheme of this planet, solar system, galaxy and universe? Or are we still equal in the grand scheme of things?

Also, we have savants that may be absolutely mind boggling in advanced mathematics but can't put on their socks, can't eat their dinner with a knife and fork or truly love another human being. Can they talk to you about the simplistic beauty of flower or the works of Shakespeare? This reminds me of the fallibility of IQ tests. I believe standard IQ is nothing without emotional IQ added into the equation. Without emotional IQ we really just have calculators & word processors.

So how advanced is an Alien Species above us? Are we really just like ants in comparison? It's quite possible that the reverse is true and that they come here to find out about this wonderfully elusive thing called emotions, or love, hate, envy, happiness, sadness and so on. It's possible that they wish to acquire what we have.

Anyway, without rambling on any further, I think you can see where I going on this... All just food for thought!

Ciao Ciao for a while people! This boy needs a rest!

IRM Out!

I believe that the simplest way to answer your query is to say, "if you've seen one, you'll know what the rest of us are searching for."
As stated earlier, I too, am rather sure that most sightings are of a terrestrial nature.
What about the ones we aren't too sure of? Doesn't human curiosity demand that we seek the truth in all events that we are privvy to?
As for me, I saw some things in my youth and in adulthood that have had me looking for answers ever since, skeptics and laughers be damned. Hells Bells, I even did 6 years in Uncle Sams Canoe Club (aviation USN) trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
NUTHIN!
There is no leap of faith with me, I'm just looking for the truth.

[edit on 4/25/2008 by LAUGHING-CAT]