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The most invalid argument concerning 9/11

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posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 11:26 AM
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I want to address one of the most invalid arguments concerning 9/11
I want to put it to bed once and for all and have at least one thread someone can point to as "proof" (or as close as we can get to proof anyway).

Disclaimer:
I am not an expert, far from it. I do not subscribe to the general conspiracy theory that George W Bush was behind the attacks or there were no planes only holograms. I also have stopped reading most 9/11 threads because they turn into disrespectful bitch fests about whose theory is correct. Not to mention the fury I experience by the blatant disrespect given to the victims and allowed by the mods.

However, over the last year or so there have been countless threads that generally start with:

"can someone please explain..."

and then they go on to ask a general question that has usually already been proven to be right or wrong and the entire process gets started all over again. Most of the time the poster seems to be new to the subject (young and impressionable as well) and usually argues with anyone who does not support his or her already solidified view.

As the post goes from civil to nasty, more and more "evidence" gets brought up to "prove" that it was a government cover-up. The one shining star of "evidence" many "truthers" eventually put out there is this:

How can a passport possibly survive an explosion and 1800 degrees of fire?"


This is the supposed smoking gun.
That’s why I started this topic...I get so damn annoyed when I see this put forth as proof, I just want to shake the ignoramus who holds this as his single proof that everything is a lie.

Again, as I said I am no expert, but I do have some common sense and some real world experience. I have participated in and watched MANY explosions in my lifetime, in person and on TV (not Hollywood type explosions.. think "Mythbuster" type explosions)



Anyway, the point is:

Regardless of container, regardless of content, regardless of heat, speed or direction there are always pieces of container, surrounding artifacts or other debris that seems untouched. Shockwaves PUSH objects away from explosions. There is no somewhat similar explosion on record anywhere at anytime that completely obliterated everything in it’s wake, there is always debris. In the case of the towers, lighter fare.. paper, folders, tags, pictures and yes.. passports could have conceivably be ejected from the building before getting burned. The building and plane were full of “exits”


If you actually think for a minute about how an explosion actually releases energy, the volume of space in a plane, the volume of space in the building, the time it takes for an engulfing fireball, the force generated by the impact, is it really that much of a leap to believe that articles were expelled before they had a chance to become puffs of smoke?


Note.. I say it is conceivable; I am not saying one way or another that they were planted or not planted.

I am saying that I am sick and tired of reading this argument like it was gospel and written in stone. If something is conceivable, however improbable you believe it to be a logical person MUST conclude that this is NOT proof and never bring it up again EVER!




Once that gets out in the open, we then have the guys who say that a passport cannot survive a "fall" of 1800 feet and I won't even go into the ignorance of that statement except to say that a passport is not a meat sack of blood, water and bones.

The point of this post is not to prove or disprove your overall theory of 9/11. I could care less at this point; I already think many of you are seriously unbalanced. Further arguing will just cause stress all around.

The point of this post is to dispel this one shinning point of "evidence" some people are constantly putting forth.


It’s crap and it ought to be treated as such.

I make no claims on the other “evidence”




posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 11:40 AM
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The passport thing is laughable. Those who believe it and use it as evidence are either shills or they better familiarize themselves with the term "lobotomy". I can at least stomach the rest of the "official story" arguments, but the passport thing is just too ridiculous to hear and keep a straight face.

Peace



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by Dr Love
 


Especially when we ask "how" it was found. From some annonymous yoo-hoo. Like that person would be shuffling through all the debris at that point in time and not running for their life.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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Yeah, it takes an unbelievably brave, heroic citizen to keep their head and remember to collect critical evidence while buildings are collapsing and pandemonium is breaking out.

That's the American way!

Peace



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Griff
 


Exactly. You could see the thousands of pieces of paper falling down from the sky even after the first plane hit. Someone was seriously looking through all that? What were they looking for? And if they really found the passport, how would they recognize the significance of the hijacker so soon? All this just off the slight chance that it even made it out of the buildings unscathed in the first place.

I'm not saying it's hardcore proof of anything, but come on. The "official story" has all kinds of these far-fetched ideas holding it together, and this is one of the worst of them. This is actually supposed to be some kind of evidence proving that the hijackers were really in there.

On the other hand, to stage this whole passport thing, all you need is the passport. So easy. And you buy it hook line and sinker in the very same second that the rest of us take to go, "...Huh?"

[edit on 3-4-2008 by bsbray11]



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 12:05 PM
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And I thought this was going to be about space beams.. Shame on you SHAME SHAME SHAME!

::EDIT::

Hey DR. Love,

When did u get into this 9/11 crap?? I dont recall u posting here...

[edit on 4/3/2008 by ThichHeaded]



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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reply to post by ThichHeaded
 


I was into it back in the day, but I laughed up my spleen and had to have surgery. I'm fully recovered now.

Peace



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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The same reason that a tornado can totally trash a house yet leave the
dining room table intact and the china unbroken. In any chaotic situation
there are eddies or islands of comparative calm where things can survive
Notice that at all the crash sites (WTC, Pentagon, Flight 93) the ojects
which survived the impact are small flexible items like drivers licenes,
passports. Items like this are light enough to be thrown out by the
impact forces and flexible enough to be bent without breaking.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:09 PM
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We are not saying that it is impossible.

But, think about it. Someone just happens to find the correct piece of clue in all that chaos? When everyone else was running for their lives? Brave soul.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Griff
We are not saying that it is impossible.

But, think about it. Someone just happens to find the correct piece of clue in all that chaos? When everyone else was running for their lives? Brave soul.


Yes. some ARE saying it is impossible.

Re read my post. Re read the 9/11 threads, there are a few current threads that have exactly this in them.

Some people hold up the passport as proof 9/11 is an inside job.

I SAID and continue to say, that while it may be improbable.. it IS possible and someone who says it isn't is a complete and utter moron and shouldn't be trusted.

That's all, I am not claiming that a passport is proof either way.
And I am not holding it agaisnt someone who says it is suspect.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:24 PM
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I think its funny though that most of the stuff found untouched was from the hijackers.

What are the odds when there were more passengers then hiajckers?



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by gormly
I SAID and continue to say, that while it may be improbable.. it IS possible and someone who says it isn't is a complete and utter moron and shouldn't be trusted.


I wouldn't go as far as calling them names. But, I can agree.


That's all, I am not claiming that a passport is proof either way.
And I am not holding it agaisnt someone who says it is suspect.


Thanks. I do think it suspect, but not impossible.

The suspectibility grows more when we find out when and how the passport was found IMO. That's what makes it suspect for me.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1
I think its funny though that most of the stuff found untouched was from the hijackers.


You are not serious are you?
Please tell me you are not that gullible to actually believe that to be true?

Thats like saying:

"How can there only be 19 people with names on the plane? Why didn't the other passengers have names?"



Do you believe the media would have presented the public with this list:

1. Dry Cleaning Slip for John Smith
2. Paycheck from Mrs Donnavan
3. Ring fro Unknown
4. File Folder for Helath Care pplan for Department 4 employees
5. Day care roster
6. Baby Bottle
7. Wedding Certificate for the Joneses
8. Molly Geralds To do list
9. Terrorist Passport
10. Swarmy Johns Little black Book

Instead of this one??
1. Terrorist Passport
2. Other suff



Please.. you are supporting a poor argument without facts and common reason. The absense of information does not always lead to the most sinister of deeds.

No offense meant (honestly) but with the reasoning skills you just displayed in that post, you really don't belong in the argument.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Dr Love
The passport thing is laughable. Those who believe it and use it as evidence are either shills or they better familiarize themselves with the term "lobotomy". I can at least stomach the rest of the "official story" arguments, but the passport thing is just too ridiculous to hear and keep a straight face.

Peace


So this is what YOU believe...right?

So...if I don't agree with YOU, I am either a government schill or am mentally disabled because of a lobotomy - or I need a lobotomy?

Shame....shame...shame...shame.

And you are a moderator?

Not only shame on you for pushing your ignorance on me and everyone else here, but shame on ATS for giving you MOD powers and then you ridicule everyone that thinks differently than you.

I am not saying I think the report is right, or it wasn't an inside job, just that because I MAY think differently than you then I am a moron? Does not seem right to me, but then what do I know, I need a lobotomy...remember?

Good day sir.

Dorian Soran



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:44 PM
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Reply to Dorian.

WOW what venom. Is it because he's a mod? The OP also called people who think a certain way "morons". Are you going to turn that venom on that poster also? Or do you have something against the mods?

Sorry for being off topic.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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If you feel I abused my position in any way, feel free to use the complaint button. If what I said was pushing ignorance and abuse of power, believe me, I'll get chewed by the bosses and my fellow mods.

That being said, let's try to steer back on topic. I don't see my name in the thread title.

Peace



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by gormly
 


I love this guys thought process; it is exactly the kind of "Daze and Confused" thinking that give some of us such an advantage in this world. While they are trying to figure out which side of the street to cross on, those of us who "get it" have already crossed the road and are down the street. McDonalds loves these people, Corporate America loves these people, the military and law enforcement loves these people; they can be bought and sold; told what to think and do; they are always looking to the crowd around them to know what is funny, what is good, what is right and wrong and never oppose the majority. These are the people Project Garden Plot will use to herd those of us who will not fight into box cars.

It is better to be considered a fool, than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:54 PM
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I suppose the reason behind my little rant IS the fact that a MOD was involved because.....

The OP doesn't decide if posts get moved, posters penalized, members banned - a MOD does!

The MODS are the ones that keep things civil when all chaos breaks loose, not the OP.

I guess I was a little taken back.

I guess I expect MODS at the BEST board on the 'net to be a bit objective.

I know they are members first, but wearing a MOD hat means sometimes you must bite your tongue for the better of the board...or so I thought.

My apologies.

Dorian Soran



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by gormly
Do you believe the media would have presented the public with this list:

1. Dry Cleaning Slip for John Smith
2. Paycheck from Mrs Donnavan
3. Ring fro Unknown
4. File Folder for Helath Care pplan for Department 4 employees
5. Day care roster
6. Baby Bottle
7. Wedding Certificate for the Joneses
8. Molly Geralds To do list
9. Terrorist Passport
10. Swarmy Johns Little black Book


Gee, not 1 passport or other ID belonging to a passenger.

But they happen to find ID, passports and all the material in cars belonging to the terrorist, and bags left behind at airports.


[edit on 3-4-2008 by ULTIMA1]



posted on Apr, 3 2008 @ 03:13 PM
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Sure yeah its possible, just not probable.

I can see how if I was there and helping and saw a passport I would pick it up because it would help in figuring out who was in the building and most likely dead.

BUT

I just cant see it, and dont get me wrong my fortress of conspiracy is not surround by a mote of passport theories. (what?) its just so improbable my head just immediately unconsciously begins to shake and then I think of Occam's razor.

great post though.



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