Did Jesus exist?

Greetings Seraphim_Serpente

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Iason

A minor quibble - its "Iasion"
Odd, but many people get my short name wrong.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
how about expanding your point of view a little! I have said this before as have others on ATS & the Web - what is the Root Origin of Christianity was Not Judaism - what if in Fact CHRISTIANITY is a PAGAN RELIGION!

Of course Christianity's roots are (partly) pagan.
The themes and stories of Christianity can be traced to contemporary beliefs - there is very little that is original in Christianity.

Have you ever heard of Iasius?
Son of God,
born of a virgin,
brought religious teachings to man,
killed tragically,
then rose to heaven.

Another version of the dying son-of-god story common in that period.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Would that change things for you? You seem to be on an agenda to prove that "Jesus" didn't really exist.

No, it would not change anything for me - it's obvious Christianity springs PARTLY from pagan beliefs of the times (and also from Judaism)

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Well why stop there - how about Moses or Abraham or Noah or Enoch or Elijah or John Baptist or any other biblical figure like this - Jesus is just one of the Gang!

Of ciourse.
Noah is a myth.
Abraham is a myth.
Enoch is a myth.
Elijah is a myth.
Moses is a myth.
Joshua is a myth.
David and Solomon are probably myths (there is no hard evidnce of either - and what llittle "evidence" there is has been made more suspect by Golan's indictment, as he was involved in most of it.)

John the Baptist however, possibly/probably was a real figure.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Do you realize how OLD Egyptian Mythology & Religion is? This could in fact be the Root Origin of BOTH later developing Judaism & Christianity!

Of course I realise - yes, there are connections between ancient religions and Judaism - e.g. the Ark of the Covenant has some similarities to ceremonial boxes that the Egyptians used.

Perhaps you'd like to present some examples of this?


Iasion

Quote: "Of course Christianity's roots are (partly) pagan.
The themes and stories of Christianity can be traced to contemporary beliefs - there is very little that is original in Christianity.

Have you ever heard of Iasius?
Son of God,
born of a virgin,
brought religious teachings to man,
killed tragically,
then rose to heaven."

Yeah most of us realize this! Also check out "APOLLONIUS OF TYANA".
Same rap - similar story - Miracle Worker.

You want examples - just check out the Egyptian Mythology Stories of Osiris, Isis & Horus - very similar - now just replace the "Pagan Gods" with People of similar Characteristics!

[edit on 18-1-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Sorry if my last post confused you Iasion. OK let’s see if I can work this out better:

Osiris = "God the Father" - Isis = "God the Mother/Holy Spirit" (Insert "Mary" the Mother of God & "Mary" the Wife of God here) - Horus = the "Son of God" (insert Jesus here). In actuality Jesus = Osiris during his Torture & Crucifixion (the Suffering & Dieing God). Then after the
Resurrection Jesus Christ = HOOR-RA - the Khemtic SUN GOD of Light & Life -who avenges the Slaying of his "Father" Osiris!

Does this make any sense to you?

I found a VERY interesting link posted by someone claiming to be a zeta reticulan (an extraterrestral from zeta reticuli) that shows some interesting data.... here is his words about 'jesus'

Quote: "SO WHERE DOES JESUS FIT INTO ALL THIS?????? "

*Simply Put ... The Being That You Know As "Jesus" Was A Fabrication ... A Composite Being Made By Those Of The Roman Empire On Terra/Earth ... In Which They Primarily Used As A Base ... The Actual Life/Life Experiences Of A True Healer & "Miracle Worker" (Although He Simply Used More Of A Complete Understanding Of Science(s) ... Named: Apollonius Of Tyana.

This Individual Was An Essene Who Traveled Throughout This World ... Teaching & Healing !! ... And Was Regarded As A Most Beloved "Sainted Being" !! ... He Had A Great Number Of Temples Dedicated To Him !!

It Was The Idea Of Those Within The Roman Empire To Create A Fictional Savior Being Of Whom They Could Manipulate & Control The Peoples/Populace !! ... And In The Creation Of This "Artificial Person" They Used The "Fan Base" ... The Following Of Apollonius Of Tyana To Work Off Of !! ... Much Like Those That Built Churches Over Sacred Celtic Sites !! ... To Convert These People To Their "Religion" ... As They Knew That These Individuals Would Need To Come There !!

The Next Step That Was Taken ... Was To Remove All Traces Of Apollonius Of Tyana From History & Historical Records !! ... So Any Temples In Dedication To Him Were Destroyed ... And Even The Great Alexandrian Library At Alexandria Egypt Was Put To The Torch ... As This Contained Records Of His Life & Travels ... Along With Many Ancient Records ... Of Which Those Who Wanted To "Rewrite History In Their Image" Wanted Eliminated !!

Apollonius Of Tyana Would Have Been Lost To History ... Had It Not Been For One Book ... Salvaged From The Flames & Taken Away/Hidden ... To Be Published/Republished Later !! ... This Was By His "Biographer/Traveling Companion" Who Went With Him On His Journeys & Wrote This All Down !!

I can't belive that now pepople are trying to doubt that jesus existed.
It's like some really hate cristianity, and now after tring to doubt what he did they have moved to the next level, the level of none existance.

Originally posted by pepsi78
I can't belive that now pepople are trying to doubt that jesus existed.
It's like some really hate cristianity, and now after tring to doubt what he did they have moved to the next level, the level of none existance.

We are not "trying" to doubt that he existed. I dont think any people including myself 'hate' christianity. We are just providing alternative information on the idea that maybe the idea of jesus and the facts surrounding him are a bit false. It doesnt mean that the man existed, but the jesus in the bible could be a composite of one or more people or someone that wasnt named 'jesus christ' or that he didnt exist. But i believe that he or someone like him existed back then.

Well considering the only sources about his existance comes from the Gospels and a few passages of Joesphus that are probably insertions it is easy to question whether he existed at all or not. That and the fact that the legends that surrounds him was adopted from the old Mediterranean dying and resurrected God mythos (aka Orpheus, Osirus, Tammuz etc) add to the questions. What I find interesting is that the currents of Mediterranean religious and philosophic thought were moving in a direction that could have very well developed a "Christian" ethos without a Jesus ever existing. The long established pattern at the time would have indeed attributed a new ideal or spiritual vision to a "god". A pattern the Christians continued, to some degree, in for example attributing the various Gonstic Gospels to the various disciples and later saints.

That being said, my gut feeling is that a Jewish wise man named Jesus walked the earth and taught an ideal as deeply rooted in the Jewish tradition as it was in a profound sense of humanity, and that he was killed for his efforts. Was he the son of God? No more or less than we all are. Did he rise from the dead? Only in the sense that the spirit transcends the physical frame. Does it matter that he did or not? Only if you think it does. All that is moot, what is truly important is what he taught... an ethos rich with compassion and mercy, deeply rooted in a profound humanity and a sense of what is truly just and moral.

Too bad so much of modern (American protestant) Christianity has chosen to brush all that aside in favor of of a simplistic vision of believe in Jesus and God will make you prosperous bullhooey.

Religions are what become of the teachings of a master after the disciples realize how difficult it is to actually walk the path.

[edit on 27-1-2007 by grover]

[edit on 27-1-2007 by grover]

[edit on 27-1-2007 by grover]

I am sat here with a big smile on my face as I read this post. It's like listening to a load of children in a playgroud talking about quantum physics. they try to understand but they are so far from reality that it is funny listening to the answers they give.
Is Jesus real. Yes.
Does he heal and do wonderous things even today. yes.
Are the gifts of the spirit given today. yes.
You aught to stop trying to fault the workshop manual and go and buy a car and join in the fun. if you know what I mean.
Where does my faith come from, you may ask. well it wasn't by reading the bible all day and trying to work out whats real and whats not. I went to the author and and asked him to show me the truth.
So, Yes. I've told people things about themselves that no-one knew about.
I've prayed for the sick and they have been healed.
Iv'e had words of knowlage to help out in situations.
To a lot of Christians these things go on all the time, we don't stand around shouting 'Yes' 'Yes', it worked. someone has been healed. we just thank god and move on.
You people seem to be on another planet when it comes to what goes on in this world. If you want the truth and not what someone thinks because of something writen down long ago. Get out to where these things happen.
You will meet a few looney tunes on the way but they are in every society anyway.
Oh" one little snag though. If you want jesus to show himself to you you have to ask from the heart and not your head. can you imagine otherwise, everyone would want to jump on the bandwagon to try and make a profit.
I'm not even going to get on the subject of Satan, possession and things that go bump in the night. If you want to know more, you know what to do.
Please don't reply asking for proof. If no-one else has ever convinced you i,m not even going to try. just look at this post as "wow" then move on and and have a good hard think of what the truth could be.
Have a nice day.
John.

Originally posted by jon1
Is Jesus real. Yes.

you know, we can't just take people's word for things
people need proof

Does he heal and do wonderous things even today. yes.

the improvable faith healing statement
i think it's been at least a mont since someone brought this one up

Are the gifts of the spirit given today. yes.

hooray for bringing up stuff you cannot back up

You aught to stop trying to fault the workshop manual and go and buy a car and join in the fun. if you know what I mean.

or you could just fault the entire idea of a divine big brother who is unwilling to let you test its existence....

Where does my faith come from, you may ask. well it wasn't by reading the bible all day and trying to work out whats real and whats not. I went to the author and and asked him to show me the truth.

you have a time machine?

So, Yes. I've told people things about themselves that no-one knew about.

ok, i'm from MO
show me
tell me something nobody else knows about
a U2U would fit this just fine

I've prayed for the sick and they have been healed.

corollation
not causation

Iv'e had words of knowlage to help out in situations.

so have i, it's called be educated

To a lot of Christians these things go on all the time, we don't stand around shouting 'Yes' 'Yes', it worked. someone has been healed. we just thank god and move on.

so you just ignore the definitive proof of your faith that you belived could be used to save millions of souls (primarily atheists)
that's kind of mean

Oh" one little snag though. If you want jesus to show himself to you you have to ask from the heart and not your head.

so i have to want to become a christian to have "jesus" show himself to me....
that's kind of sketchy
if you ask me

can you imagine otherwise, everyone would want to jump on the bandwagon to try and make a profit.

which would be a change in what way?

I'm not even going to get on the subject of Satan, possession and things that go bump in the night. If you want to know more, you know what to do.
Please don't reply asking for proof. If no-one else has ever convinced you i,m not even going to try. just look at this post as "wow" then move on and and have a good hard think of what the truth could be.

oh so you're just going to ignore my entire post
nice try
that's very arrogant of you
ya know
here i am claiming that it is impossible for me to have absolute truth
and here you are claiming you do, but won't prove it because it is somehow below you
that kind of makes me sick

EDIT

Originally posted by jon1
I am sat here with a big smile on my face as I read this post. It's like listening to a load of children in a playgroud talking about quantum physics. they try to understand but they are so far from reality that it is funny listening to the answers they give.

btw
that's also very arrogant of you

[edit on 1/27/07 by madnessinmysoul]

I bet that reply took took some time to do.
I surpose I do come across as arrogant but I just tell it as it is.
You know what one of my biggest wishes is?. that god would make it easier for me to let the truth be known. All's I can do is tell my story, us Christians are on a loser before we start with most people. If you don't believe in God then what I tell you will be a lie or I'm not quite a full shilling. No matter what I say to you, you won't investigate whether what I am saying is the truth or not. It will be brushed under the carpet with the rest of the rubbish.
If you had an open mind you may say, there could be some truth in what I am being told here. I'll make a few enquiries, " nothing ventured, nothing gained".
I am not here to tell you any lies. What I know is not something that is in my head. it's a physical reality. I live in the real world not one with time machines.
Also, I can't put God into a box to open only when I want something. I can't demand he heals or gives me words of knowlage. what I can do is pray and ask for something. If he heals one person in ten that in itself is good. I will be very thankfull for that. I am just a very small cog in a very big wheel.
I'm sorry if it makes you sick that i don't have some Godly powers of my own to cure the world of the sick and dying. but I try and do my bit and at least some will benefit.
I tell you something though. when I see God someday I bet I have more question than you.
All the best.
John

By the way, what's with digging that hole at the side of your house?.
Just a thought I had.

Originally posted by jon1
By the way, what's with digging that hole at the side of your house?.
Just a thought I had.

um...

i just patrolled the perimeter of my house
and nobody in the family (myself included) has dug or is planning on digging anything
hell, why would we
we're going to be selling it soon

anyway
just so you know
i'm a soft atheist
the type that simply says "through a proponderance of evidence, i do not see the existence of god as evident"
i, and most other atheists, don't see any potential proof as rubbish
we actually look at it
and
honestly
i've done 2 years of research into the world religions, and i found nothing that proved anything

Looking into world religeons will prove nothing. only God can do that for you. Personally I'm not into religeons, its just me and God because at the end of the day that is what is important. It's no use going to heaven and saying, but I was told that you were not real you were just made up to controll the masses. He Says, Didn't the 2.1 billion of them on earth give you some sort of clue. Yes, at the end of the day Its 50/50. Hope you try to get the odds a little more in your favour before its to late.
I'm just here to tell it as it is. Its then upto each and every one of you to do with that information what your HEART tells you what to do with it.
Like I said, the hole was just a thought. give it time though.

John

The following is an old post that I made last year in a similar thread entitled "Jesus never existed... end of story". I hope you find it interesting:

-Here is a quote from a professor at Manchester University.

"Some writers may toy with the fancy of a 'Christ-myth', but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Ceaser. It is not historians who propogate the 'Christ-myth' theories."
- F.F. Bruce, Rylands Professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at Manchester University.

-This quote is from a famous Roman Philosipher, who is relied heavily on by historians.
Cornelius Tacitus (born A.D. 52-54):

"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumour, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for thier enormities. Christus, the founder of the name was put to death by Pontious Pilate, procurator of Juedea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischeif originated, but through the city of Rome also. " Tacitus, Annals XV, 44.

-This is a letter from a famous Jewish war tactician to his friend.
Josephus, a Jew who commanded a force during a Jewish revolt against Rome and who after defeat wrote a history of Israel twice mentions Jesus. Josephus had no reason to be a friend of Jesus, writes this

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising facts and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He was over many Jews and many of the Greeks . He was the Messiah.
When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him.
On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him, and he has still to this day not disappeared"

-This is from an enemy of the Christians who himself acknowledged the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.
Lucian of Samosata

A second century satarist, who spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians. He connected them with the synagogues of Palestine and alluded to Christ as: "the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world ... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that cruicified sophist himself and living under his laws." - The Passing Peregrinus

-In the bible, Jesus is accused of being "The King of the Jews":
A historical artifact in the British Museum has a letter written by Maraben Serapion who wrote about the Jews who executed "their wise king".

-The Encyclopedia Brittanica, which is quite well known:

"No serious historian would doubt the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. On occasions some have tried but only by ignoring the overwhelming evidence that supports the existence of Jesus. These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries" - Encyclopedia Britannica

A large number of those quotes are now known to be later insertions made by the scribes who saved those texts.

Originally posted by grover
A large number of those quotes are now known to be later insertions made by the scribes who saved those texts.

Which quotes are you talking about, who knows them to be later insertions, and can you give the names of the scribes who falsified these texts?

I recommend Robin Lane Foxes book "Unauthorized Version; Truth and Fiction in the Bible" and his magnum opus "Pagans and Christians: Religion and the Religious life from the 2nd Century to the 4th " which goes into these matters far more throughly than I can... but it has been a matter of conseus among biblical scholars that the early Christians made proofs up.... to be fair they were not alone in this.. many groups wrote their own versions of the Gospels or made up passages to support their viewpoint...perhaps the most famous of these is the so-called Donation of Constantine a forgery that gave the Pope secular power over the districts around Rome... the so-called papal states.

Hi There,

To Provide a response to the initial poster's question 'did Jesus exist?', I provide the following link...(apologies if this has already been given).

nobeliefs.com...

The honest answer is that there is no historical evidence of such a character in any of the official records of that time for that area. Jesus as accepted by billions of people around the world, was not brought to the public's conscious until some 150 years after his alleged life.

150 years from now, if someone wanted to, they could trace my life through official records, and I am in no way a remarkable person that history should deem to remember. I was born in obscurity and to it I shall return. Jesus, however, is alleged to be much more, yet there are no historical records of such an entity written at the time it is alleged to have walked the earth and performed the actions from the mythology of the Roman Cannons. Such a remarkable person would have been extensively written about by historians of that time. Not one did.

Best wishes

TheB1ueSoldier, the problem that some people have with the existence of "jesus" as a historical figure is that there aren't any CONTEMPORARY sources that show his existence

Originally posted by grover
... it has been a matter of conseus among biblical scholars that the early Christians made proofs up....

I didn't ask for your assumption about what every biblical scholar thinks(because I'm sure you've met many biblical scholars), nor did I ask for a vague reference to a book. I asked for the specific quotes from my post that you claim to be false, the people who falsified them, and at least a source or reference to back up your claim.

Originally posted by groverperhaps the most famous of these is the so-called Donation of Constantine a forgery that gave the Pope secular power over the districts around Rome... the so-called papal states.

What does the Donation of Constantine have to do with the existence of Jesus? It was a forged document that claimed Pope Sylvester I was entitled to land in Italy, and has nothing to do with the historicity of Jesus.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
TheB1ueSoldier, the problem that some people have with the existence of "jesus" as a historical figure is that there aren't any CONTEMPORARY sources that show his existence

I'm not quite sure about what you mean. By "CONTEMPORARY" sources, do you mean sources from the 21st century? Or do you mean ancient sources that have survived to "CONTEMPORARY" times? If you mean current sources for his existence, just take a look at the best selling book since forever.

From a historiography standpoint, this is mostly an 'academic' exercise, since the 'existence' of Jesus of Nazareth could easily be established with only a tiny fraction of our New Testament documents. The mere existence of someone in history is (often) easily established on the basis of small textual samples (sometimes even single paragraphs). The amount of data (especially historically 'incidental') we have about Jesus in the New Testament--and the appearances that the authors were not collusive--gives us a very, very high level of assurance in this matter.

Again, professional and academic scholars of the period -- Christian, Jewish, Secular -- accept the New Testament as an adequate witness, both for historical 'existence' and for many pieces of historical detail about Jesus.

Now, if you mean ancient documents that have survived to "CONTEMPORARY" times, then just take a look at the small number of examples that I have given to you in my previous post. Either way, the historicity of Jesus is as solid today as it was 2000 years ago.