To Camo or not to Camo...

Usefulness of Mil-Surplus gear for SitX... the Pro's and Cons:

Introductory:

I have recently been thinking about this very idea lately, since the last decade I have somehow amassed quite the load of duffel bags of BDU's, boots, all weather and tactical gear of many sorts, chemsuits and masks... to fully loaded ALICE setups packed with the essentials. It was all stacked neatly in the corner of the garage, until I started to do some spring cleaning and decided to take a good hard look at it all.

One thing that really struck me was the epiphany: "I have all of this stuff, and if the proverbial frap was to hit the can and I had to bail right now... I would end up walking the streets looking like some militaristic gung-ho fanatic." Yeah, I got plenty of camo netting and a tac vest and a rifle or three... but honestly if there is no time to get to a secluded location, what good will most this stuff do for you? Not much other than added baggage to lug about and make me and whomever I am with stick out like a sore thumb, when in all actuality the idea is to become less noticed and "blend in" to the surroundings to survive. The "grey man strategy" is what I'm talking about here... I just can't remember who it was that posted it, but you get a kudos from me.

So, what is your take on this idea? If a sit-x happens.... do you choose to go gung-ho or do you choose to blend into your surroundings via other means?

I would like to hear your own thoughts on this idea, so feel free to elaborate


Cheers,
T-9

It all depends on the situation. If society is going to break down almost completely, my plan is to get out of the city anyway and live moving around, heading toward a specific location staying away from roads and cities unless I need something.

Military camo isn't all that great anyway, except for the fact that the clothes are very sturdy and if you're lucky, from a distance there's a better chance someone wouldn't see you. The newer digital stuff is better in urban environments, but still works in most environments just fine. That stuff will do you good if you're going to have to move through an urban area and you consider it hostile anyway.

If this isn't the total collapse of society, then all you're doing wearing camo is making yourself a bigger target.

You really have to judge based on the scenario when it comes. I can see a lot of situations where you wouldn't want to bother, but there's equally as many where your best bet is to go with camo and make yourself disappear.

If /When Sit-X happens, then you will be thankfull for what "gear" you have picked up over the years.
BUT.........
In my opinion......STAY GREY and try to blend in.
If you are in the city (as i am) we are going to be amongst 100's of thousands that are going to be heading out of the city.
You dont really want to let everyone else know "what you have" by giving them a sign (in your case by wearing it)..
Sit-X...get ot the city as quick as possible, to your pre-arranged meeting place (friends / family) and then put your plan to action to stay there at your location.

Stay Grey, blend in, ......even in everyday life....dont let the man next to you know what you are up to

At least from a psychological standpoint, you have to go to either end of the spectrum. If you are in the middle, you're screwed.

RAMBO
On one end, you go all-out military style. Big steel-toed boots, full camo, maybe a ghillie net on top of your camo. Gas mask, as long as it doesn't hinder your vision or head movement. Army helmet. Multiple guns. ESPECIALLY if you have a group of people all dressed like this. Walk down the middle of the road like you own it, make your prescence known by everyone.
Civilian Standpoint: I can tell you that even if I had an automatic weapon, if I saw 4 or 5 guys in full camo walking down the street I would rather run than risk it. Chances are they know what they are doing.
Military Standpoint: It's risky... either they would mistake you for one of their own, or they would immediately assess you as a major threat and take you out. If there is no military threat involved with SitX, I think this would be the way to go. If there is heavy police/military prescence you're better to go with the "grey man" outfitting.


GREY MAN
On the other end, you can choose to blend in. At most, you want a non-bulky bulletproof vest under your clothes, and your pistols concealed. You want to be as non-threatening as possible. Don't shave your head, don't build up big muscles, wear old and worn looking clothes, etc.
Civilian Standpoint: You're one of them. At most, someone may try to mug you when things get really desperate.
Military Standpoint: More easily hidden and less likely to get shot.

To understand why nothing in the middle would be to your advantage, think about a hunter walking down the road with gun exposed, but wearing bright orange.

Originally posted by Sovereign797
Military camo isn't all that great anyway, except for the fact that the clothes are very sturdy (snip) The newer digital stuff is better in urban environments, but still works in most environments just fine. That stuff will do you good if you're going to have to move through an urban area and you consider it hostile anyway.

From what I can tell, that newer digital camo like the Army ACU and Air Force ABU is good for certain terrains and zones, and they are becoming standard in USMIL forces here... which means the old woodland and 3 color desert will be obsolete within the decade. I'm not sure why the branches of service are opting for their own patterns though, unless it is to distinguish the different branches more readily within the theater of operations in a conflict zone.

Think of it this way,
Conversion to a new camo scheme will leave alot of surplus on the market for the older camo styles, and once the phase is compete it may be easier to tell friendlies from hostiles by their attire. Assuming that one was to go all gung-ho into a sit-x that has a large military presence... they might not have the advantage, as roving bands of militias will probably still be in woodland or tri-colors.

Sounds like going grey would be the best idea, but to alot of folks on here that would mean grabbing their bugout bag of choice... and some may be left with just their hiking backpack and the nike express. Still you stick out like the odd man imho, just a lighter shade of grey. What would you do then?

What other ways are there to utilize built in camo the average Joe or Jane has?


Thanks for the response!


T-

I really don't see what the issue is, unless your naturally built and intimidating I would wear the camo and layer grey over it. placing the gas mask in a survival back pack or so. once your out of the city swap gear under a tree and head towards your destination.

Hell, if you need camo that badly, just wait for a rainy day and go for a swim in a mud-pit, fully clothed.

You'll come out with a decent (improvised) Forest Camo, not unlike what Arnie did in predator.

My plan for a social breakdown is to start wandering before everyone else does, maybe paying a visit to some of the smaller towns and villages which may not be so badly effected by the waves of unrest.

Fact o' the matter is if you show up at a communal centre where survivors/refugees are gathering they aren't going to want to see some dude running about like a full-fledged commando.

If it's absolutely nessecary to do the whole routine, i would actually advise staying a reasonable distance from major cities, thereby providing you with the ability to survive for months if not years simply by going back and forth from your lair to the city.

Of course, this method relies on a certain amount of skill in choosing your lair, and the route to and from it needs serious consideration.

If you know a place that can be used as a bolt-hole, then that would more or less be perfect if you can seal one end of it off.

Ultimately it comes down to which one you think you'd be better at; Sticking it with the others and eventually going your own way when you're ready, or sticking to a pre-determined solution to the problem?



[edit on 23-3-2008 by Throbber]

Originally posted by Throbber

Fact o' the matter is if you show up at a communal centre where survivors/refugees are gathering they aren't going to want to see some dude running about like a full-fledged commando.


[edit on 23-3-2008 by Throbber]

Actually i disagree. Most people would feel reassured by a big guy standing around with an assault rifle in camo. As long as they knew he wasnt a threat (so as long as you dont act like a jackass), they will feel comforted by the guarding presence that you will have. In time they may even give you food in turn for protecting them.

This is a psychological response whereby the civvy has to determine whether you are a friend or a foe. Once they realise youre not out to hurt them, theyll not only accept you but support you too.

I plan on taking this action... in the confusion i may be able to pass off as a soldier (seeing as i was a cadet in the RAF, ive got most of the camo clothing).

Camo has a very commanding presence because of the subconscious association with the power of the military. If you run out onto the street with camo matching that of the national guard or army, you would most likely be able to exert considerable command over the fleeing masses. You could redirect them in a helpful way, or if resources were scarce, you could stop them from moving towards your hideout.

In short, its up to you whether to wear camo or not. Camo definitely has a commanding presence and is suited to sticking out and being a leader. My personality leads me to lead others rather than being amongst them. You have to decide whether your personality makes you a leader or a follower and dress accordingly.

I have spent endless houres thinking about if in a sit x, what kind of set-up am I gonna wear. There are pro's and con's to both "grey" and camo, I myself will wear regular jeans and a tee shirt, but ill have a black vest on, with a drop leg holster and various other items, Im sure I will look as if I represent the law, and not looters or any criminal element . Plus since ill be wearing regular clothes underneath if I have to I can take everything off and look like a grey in about one minute, If the situation calls for it I also have my digi cams from the usmc. But I like the idea of having a full military set-up aswell, which I have.

Neutral coloured clothing, grey man option. Then get really dirty Works both ways.. And to change back, just rinse!!

No gun for me though.. poxy Britain.

Originally posted by Nemiro
No gun for me though.. poxy Britain.

No guns required, just point a stick, shout *bang* and you're thoroughly British opponent will have the decency to lie down and be 'dead'

Slaps forehead: I never thought about layering for versatility... good point!

That would probably work pretty well in my area as long as it wasn't summer, or you would find it being a tad uncomfortable not to mention sweaty.

Originally posted by Throbber

Ultimately it comes down to which one you think you'd be better at; Sticking it with the others and eventually going your own way when you're ready, or sticking to a pre-determined solution to the problem?

You make one heck of a statement with that entire post... well worthy of a star.
I suppose it would all depend on what direction you would want to go, and how well one can work under pressure. Do you get out and lead, or just fall into the ration lines?

I live in a pretty small town, mainly supported by the economics of two of the nearby military installations... USAF and Army National Guard. Within a radius of 100 miles lies the largest cities in the state, well within driving distance which could be good or bad, depending on the situation. There is lot's of.. talking tens of thousands of acres of nothing in any direction, 30 miles one way and you are in the mountains. Many places to hide if you know them, the only downfall of that would be the increased military presence.. so in theory, you could go grey either way here but I'm not one to stand in line waiting for a handout if ya know what I mean.



I have spent many hours pondering this subject myself... and thanks to the input I have received here I am looking at it with more of an open mind to the bigger picture. But I have to say, while this may not be the "be all and end all" thread discussing this, I hope it will provide some ideas for other readers here, and not just myself. So far, stellar thoughts everyone.. and once again, thanks for your contribution. I'm looking forward to all of the other helpful knowledge we here can produce.

originally posted by Citizen Smith
No guns required, just point a stick, shout *bang* and you're thoroughly British opponent will have the decency to lie down and be 'dead'

What ever happened to the good old days of war when everyone would line up single file to shoot at the opponent head on with a muzzleloader? Makes me picture a standing army with rubberband guns drawn..... ouch.. my eye... reload... lmao..

carry on folks,
T-

Originally posted by Nemiro
No gun for me though.. poxy Britain.

Get a .22 gas or air gun. They will be good for hunting for small game and also will look authoritative if the need arises.

From my calculations on velocities and grains, they are about 1/3 the power of a .22 long rifle, so they arent weak by any means!

Just make sure you get a air gun with a power rating above 10ft.lbs , which will be ample power for any purpose.

If you are into rifle shooting, you can get a straight pull rifle. This could be used in a survival situation. Its 5.56mm calibre NATO usually, though you can get a 7.62. The procedure is MENTAL though!! It takes one year for the background checks.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Get a .22 gas or air gun. They will be good for hunting for small game and also will look authoritative if the need arises.

Carrying anything that looks remotely gun-like in the UK will in all likelihood make you a target by the authorities or anyone bigger and stronger than you who likes the look of your weapon, as you can't just stuff an air-rifle in your pocket and look inconspicuous in an instant.

Plus, as with all firearms, you still have the problem of requiring accurately calibrated ammunition for the gun to function with any power or accuracy

Arm yourself with a few of these and at least half a dozen spare elastics for each slingshot...



I've dropped bunnies and wood-pidgeons with a single marble-shot from one of these, they're silent, powerful enough to kill a human with a headshot or incapacitate with a leg/arm hit, and can fire practically anything that you can put in the sling..pebbles, rusty bolts, marbles, ball-bearings, black-powder-filled CO2-cartridge grenades, etc

best of all, you can fold it up and slip it into a pocket in an instant








[edit on 23-3-2008 by citizen smith]

It would depend upon the circumstance. SituationX rolls around, I'm going to be too busy getting out of the way to hide. I suppose I subscribe to the notion of gray is good. Blend/Hide.

I have my standard tactical pants, and boots, in black. I have a vest that accomodates a .45 handgun and several mags, with room for radio, small medical kit and minor food/energy bars. It doesn't look like Super Rambo and fits quite well under a coat. Makes you look a little bigger though, but thats ok with a baggy jacket.

All of my packs though look rather tactical, but being that they are all in black, seem to take away from attention at first glance. The only thing that i dislike in a situation like this is that It would be hard to travel 'amongst the crowd' with my rifle, and i feel way more confident with it as opposed to my Handgun.

I really like the slingshot idea, but i'm just not quite experienced with them as i am in firearms.


I see alot of mention of Camo vs. gray... but what do you all think about an all black outfit as opposed to a full on camo/gray look? Its kind of a non tactical look, except for the boots, which are 60% covered by the pants.


ThePiece

[edit on 24-3-2008 by ThePiece]

[edit on 24-3-2008 by ThePiece]

My solution is civilian clothes (black cargo pants and a jacket suitable for weather, as it can vary from +30C to -30C where i live), with a german camo greatcoat in the top of my bugout back. So if i need to blend in to woods i can just pull that over my jacket and duck down...

Blending in crowd with a thin camo layer ready in your back is the way to go

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

Get a .22 gas or air gun. They will be good for hunting for small game and also will look authoritative if the need arises.

Have an Air rifle. I'm not very knowledgable about them though... Is it possibl to purchase an air rifle with a magazine? The one I have is snap open. (Between barrel and body)

Originally posted by Nemiro
Have an Air rifle. I'm not very knowledgable about them though... Is it possibl to purchase an air rifle with a magazine? The one I have is snap open. (Between barrel and body)

Unfortunately, self-contained air-cartridge air-weapons have required the owner to hold a Firearms Certificate since 2004 in the UK

Home Office air-cartridge firearm legislation pdf

Anyone who manufactures, sells,
purchases, transfers or acquires a selfcontained
gas cartridge weapon on or after
20 January 2004 will commit an offence
under the Firearms Act 1968. You will be
liable for a maximum of 10 years
imprisonment and will soon be liable for the
new minimum sentence of 5 years.

Anyone who is found in possession of a
self-contained gas cartridge weapon on or
after 30 April 2004 without it being entered
on a valid firearm certificate will also commit
an offence under the Firearms Act 1968 and
will be liable for the same penalty.
If you have applied for a firearm certificate
before 30 April 2004 but your application is
outstanding or is the subject of an appeal,
you will not be liable for prosecution.

Retailers will not be able to trade in
self-contained gas cartridge weapons from
20 January 2004 although you may continue
to hold existing stock until 30 April 2004.
If you wish to sell the weapons abroad or to
provide a repair service, you must apply to
the Home Office for the Secretary of State’s
authority under section 5 of the Firearms Act
1968 and to register with the police as a
firearms dealer. Applications must be
submitted before 30 April 2004.

...so were stuck with single-round weapons restricted to 12ft/lbs (6ft/lbs for pistols) whether they be CO2 pre-charged or the standard break-barrel sprung piston weapons such as yours.

The .177/.22 rounds wont do much to kill a rabbit or woody unless you're a good shot from a limited range

One of the frustrating things in Iraq was the lack of formal identification of the "bad guys". Wearing civ clothes allowed them to snipe from an alley or rooftop drop the weapon and run. Not being allowed to light up a whole neighborhood and having positive ID not just a suspicion added the opposition greatly. Another common tactic was the Iraq "dress" that was common garb among the men. We called them man dresses but an often employed tactic was to attack wearing the "man dress" than pull it off with a full set of clothing underneath. Just a few idea wolf in sheeps clothing so to speak.