Adam & Eve & the Clash Between the Gods

It has long been my belief that there has been a conspiracy going on in the heavens between the Gods. We, I believe, are feeling the consequences of it and have by way of Adam & Eve...inherited their original sin. A set-up that created a domino effect throughout mankind's history. How so?

It makes sense to me to believe in the first couple; Adam & Eve.

Everyone assumes that because they were considered perfect that they would automatically have wisdom to always know what was right. But, I believe that it would be very difficult for any of us to understand their position. What frame of reference would Adam have had regarding the difference between right and wrong or understanding boundaries? What existed before him - relatives, experiences, and outside influences that he could have learned from? What teachers good or bad, did he have to instruct or help him to reflect on? He would only learn later the dire realities of the universal law, the nature and reality of; cause and effect. What life experience did he have, besides naming the animals?

Adam may have had a brilliant microchip in his brain, but at this point, it would need information to be programed into it. In what way would he have the ability to learn the difference between good and bad? A good boundary to learn would be the infamous tree. Well, we know what happened there... The Gods Got Involved.

Why was there so much focus on this couple? What did they unknowingly carry that would affect everyone thereafter? I believe that this is where a conspiracy really got going and where "dualism" became a reality. A possible rebellion in the heavenly family structure would set off a pattern of family dysfunction in history. The incident of the devil (a God in the conspiracy) would set up a game of dominoes, or chain reactions that would affect mankind throughout history. By interfering in mans life - he injected a virus in our DNA (like a computer virus) that would multiply and grow and affect mankind for millenniums to come. We would then inherit and pass down the "Sins of our Fathers." He would know that man was not at the level of understanding or experience to be able to resist his lure. So he taught rebellion to mankind and perhaps unhealthy desire. Make sense?

As I asked before - could God actually have been a younger- "new parent?" Did he actually make mistakes (all new parents make mistakes)? He claimed to have regretted creating humans. This opens up - hopefully, different discourse.

Why would God allow the devil that much power in the first place - to influence the first couple? What was going on? And the thought that Satan has been allowed to continue to have much power. Why has God given in to Satan? What could be the dynamics between the two? These are questions I have had for a long time.

Matrix Prophet
www.michelelyon.com

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
It has long been my belief that there has been a conspiracy going on in the heavens between the Gods. We, I believe, are feeling the consequences of it and have by way of Adam & Eve...inherited their original sin. A set-up that created a domino effect throughout mankind's history. How so?

It makes sense to me to believe in the first couple; Adam & Eve.

Everyone assumes that because they were considered perfect that they would automatically have wisdom to always know what was right.

Well,, can you blame them? Afterall they DID have only one rule to follow.
It doesn't take a lot of wisdom when your creator tells you, you can do as you like, eat from any tree etc etc. Just don't from this one tree.

But, I believe that it would be very difficult for any of us to understand their position. What frame of reference would Adam have had regarding the difference between right and wrong or understanding boundaries? What existed before him

One needs no frame of referance regarding morality for it was written on the heart. This is why they both knew they had done wrong and tried to hide themselves from God. (As if)

Adam may have had a brilliant microchip in his brain, but at this point, it would need information to be programed into it. In what way would he have the ability to learn the difference between good and bad? A good boundary to learn would be the infamous tree. Well, we know what happened there... The Gods Got Involved.

U,mm am I confused? is this a spin off book of the Bible or perhaps a quasi greek mythology christianity blend? What or who are the "Gods"

Why was there so much focus on this couple? What did they unknowingly carry that would affect everyone thereafter? I believe that this is where a conspiracy really got going and where "dualism" became a reality. A possible rebellion in the heavenly family structure would set off a pattern of family dysfunction in history. The incident of the devil (a God in the conspiracy)

Okay,, now,, I see why it is so hard for Christians to be taken seriously and why they have so many Atheist's spreading around contradictions of the Bible. They get them from Bible Spinners who talk as if the rest of us have any clue to what you are talking about. I mean it started to sound like the Christian Bible, having many of those beings written in it. However, I see now their are "Gods" and that Satan is one of them.

We are using the same stable Datum (the Bible) as our standard of truth are we not?

would set up a game of dominoes, or chain reactions that would affect mankind throughout history. By interfering in mans life - he injected a virus in our DNA (like a computer virus) that would multiply and grow and affect mankind for millenniums to come. We would then inherit and pass down the "Sins of our Fathers." He would know that man was not at the level of understanding or experience to be able to resist his lure. So he taught rebellion to mankind and perhaps unhealthy desire. Make sense?

No.

As I asked before - could God actually have been a younger- "new parent?" Did he actually make mistakes (all new parents make mistakes)? He claimed to have regretted creating humans. This opens up - hopefully, different discourse.

He said what!!! All imperfect finite mortal parents make mistakes, God has the benefit of seeing mistakes before they happen and uses divine providence from a singularity where time does not exist so their could be no relative benchmark to age God, Young or Old.

Why would God allow the devil that much power in the first place - to influence the first couple?

How much power ? He tempted them,, he didn't put a gun to anyones head. Secondly, he let them control their own lives, make their own choices to define their moral soul. Had god made them to do his bidding, he would have never known if they followed him out of love and respecty or out of compliance and God Mandate.

What was going on? And the thought that Satan has been allowed to continue to have much power. Why has God given in to Satan? What could be the dynamics between the two? These are questions I have had for a long time.

God not only has NOT given in to Satan, he has defeated him already.


- Con

[edit on 4-4-2008 by Conspiriology]

I appreciate your thoughts. If one is to believe in the Creation Account then that becomes the foundation of what I am talking about.

They did not know about lying. They did not know about evil or even know what to question. They were not created "knowing all." I believe they were a test and an experiment. They were foolish to take their will back and to act without investigation. Yes, you are right, how can we blame them?

They were the originators of sin and shame, and became the progenitors of both and passed that down - generation to generation. Part of what I am saying is hypothetical, plus I've worked in the recovery field for many years and love the study of human behavior.

Yes, Jah did indeed admit that he regretted making man and many of his other decisions. Abraham even called him on some of his actions.

We have a warped understanding of what perfection is. And I think that we are not clear as to who the Gods actually are. So many in Christendom are caught up in mans doctrines and miss the possible story behind the story.

Have you read the Bible in its entirety? I ask that because; I challenge anyone to deny that there is not a difference in Jah as the Bible moves forward in the OT. I do believe that he was a young parent and fell into a Game with Satan and heavenly congress.

Oh, by the way, I am not Christian nor am I religious. I am spiritual and consider myself a; spiritual scientist in that; it is important to question everything with the evidence we have, and to question what we do not have, and what we have been taught, to make sure that we are not just being duped!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Yes, Jah did indeed admit that he regretted making man and many of his other decisions.

Genesis 6:6, by the way(just to avoid the inevitable "where does it say that?").

Matrix, would you mind elaborating on who "the Gods" are?

Matrix a lot of folks get confused when you talk about other Gods. It is not something that churches have taught. However I do believe the Bible does refer to other "Gods" lesser than the creator God Jehovah of course... these are really the same thing as Arch Angels and angels etc.
Anyone who doubts this should read this Intro to Divine Counsel it is written by an ancient Hebrew language scholar who is a Christian Dr Michael Heiser; He explains it really well.

As I asked before - could God actually have been a younger- "new parent?" Did he actually make mistakes (all new parents make mistakes)? He claimed to have regretted creating humans. This opens up - hopefully, different discourse.

Why would God allow the devil that much power in the first place - to influence the first couple? What was going on? And the thought that Satan has been allowed to continue to have much power. Why has God given in to Satan? What could be the dynamics between the two? These are questions I have had for a long time.

My understanding is that there was a big fuss between God and the Angels or "lesser Gods" if you will. So much so that we humans were created as almost an object lesson for them. From the story of Job that is made quite clear. The Bible also says that we will judge the Angels one day.

"Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corin 6:3)

I think Adam and Eve were just completely innocent like a small child. I don;t think God made any mistakes... I think he gave us free will and is letting things work out the way they will, by choice. I think when the fallen angels came down and corrupted mankind to the point God had to flood the earth he did express regret for having made man... but he found enough to rebuild on and to deliver the promised redeemer.

He allows the devil the power because he wants him to see the full measure of his will. The devil basically told god that he knows better. Gods wants him to experience the full measure of his "own way". Like Job we are the chess pieces in this war... It does not seem just to us that we have so much pain and death and sin. The world is not fair. That is the result of this big struggle. However God has promised to make it all worth our while for all eternity.

I believe, in light of eternity, the seeming injustices of this life; even the most horrible pain imaginable --disease -- the death of children --- will be forgotten... like a distant childhood wound... scraping your knee at age 3...
forgotten pain... will be replaced with heavenly joy

in light of eternity









[edit on 4/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Isn't it correct that God actually walked in the garden with Adam and Eve and even came calling for them in the cool evening of their fall? If they walked with God (meaning knew him) they would have had a sense of right and wrong. Satan is deceptive...that's his main goal. He deceived Eve first, who then deceived Adam. They fell to deception, not ignorance.

Yahweh said that he regretted making man in Gen. 6:7 and other sources. As I have said (perhaps in another thread) - Abraham held him accountable to his decisions also.

The Gods are other gods or Gods the Bible speaks of. Satan is referred to as one so is Jesus etc. It is important to distinguish between them however.

reply to post by idle_rocker


I agree with you - pretty much. I said that they showed "contempt prior to investigation." Meaning that all they had to do was ask! It is easy for all of us to use our frame of reference when discussing them. I am asking for us to look at them in a different light.

There is always going to be a religious slant put onto anything regarding the Bible. It is my goal to go outside of religion and to see what we may be missing. If you all are asking me to define everything within your boundaries...I won't. I have been there, done that!

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I appreciate all of your points and agree with most! Again as I said in the preceding post, I am being shown to look out of the box and to help others to do so also. If a person is interested.

Many thoughts or concepts that I am putting forth are going to seem perhaps a little rough. That is why those who most likely will be interested, are those who desire a different or new insight, or new approach. I used to be an avid Christian and was a missionary etc, etc. So none of your insights (from ATS) are new. Please understand that I know where everyone is coming from and respect that.

There were many questions that I always had and religion answered many of them to their ability. I soon learned that for me to gain more understanding I needed to follow what my "gut" and "senses" were telling me. Hence, some of the threads I have already written and those I may write will challenge the Christian beliefs. But! I am not trying to change Christians. There are those out there that were like me, I know it, for I have met many.

In saying this, I know that many of you will want to counter my threads and posts. Understand, that I may not deem it necessary to answer them all back.

"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time!"
- T.S. Eliot

What I'm hearing, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, is that you have found a new gospel you want to share, and that if Christians want to challenge you, you will not find it necessary to respond? Am I correct in this assessment?

But you say you're not here to change Christians' minds. So what is the purpose of the new gospel you want to share?

Thank you,

I_R

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

My understanding is that there was a big fuss between God and the Angels or "lesser Gods" if you will. So much so that we humans were created as almost an object lesson for them. From the story of Job that is made quite clear. The Bible also says that we will judge the Angels one day.

"Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corin 6:3)

I think Adam and Eve were just completely innocent like a small child. I don;t think God made any mistakes... I think he gave us free will and is letting things work out the way they will, by choice. I think when the fallen angels came down and corrupted mankind to the point God had to flood the earth he did express regret for having made man... but he found enough to rebuild on and to deliver the promised redeemer.

He allows the devil the power because he wants him to see the full measure of his will. The devil basically told god that he knows better. Gods wants him to experience the full measure of his "own way". Like Job we are the chess pieces in this war... It does not seem just to us that we have so much pain and death and sin. The world is not fair. That is the result of this big struggle. However God has promised to make it all worth our while for all eternity.

I believe, in light of eternity, the seeming injustices of this life; even the most horrible pain imaginable --disease -- the death of children --- will be forgotten... like a distant childhood wound... scraping your knee at age 3...
forgotten pain... will be replaced with heavenly joy

in light of eternity

[edit on 4/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Well, thanks for clearing that up,, Idle_rocker has been nudging me LOL (sic em boy,, chew em up) ha ha j/k I love the rocker.

So Ima go read this council thing it looks very interesting

- Con

Believe it or not...there are many different types of individuals on ATS with many different beliefs. Not all are Christian!

You can believe in anything you choose to believe in, ie, the easter bunny, Santa Claus or the truth fairy, any of the Hallmark holidays. It does not matter one whit to me.

My approach as I have said countless times is; to uncover those who are also searching for truth outside of religion. I along with others are leaving the middle man out (religion) and are wanting an HD (High Definition) relationship with Jah without the middleman's influence.

There is just nothing new in what all of you Christians say and teach, and it is not enough. There are no new arguments as you all have displayed so conscientiously. It becomes a lot of arguing and debating with information that has been argued and debated for many more years than you have been alive.

In all of my threads I have not heard even one post that has displayed any new intelligence from any religious person, it is all the same ritualistic dogma. My threads actually are created to help one to think! Whether one agrees or not!

Note: so I don't have to continually repeat this, I am going to cut and paste this to my other threads.

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Honestly I like this subject and think that it's worth discussing. Hat tip from me for thinking out of the box.

While some of this is interesting to discuss, I doubt we'll be able to know it all for now. Even if as God was a jr. god, then there would have been a sr. god who would have known everything that the jr. god would do and thus would be responsible for the actions of the jr. god by creating him knowing in advance what his actions would be.

The only way to get out of this trap is to assume that God was merely a god as in the Greek legends. Not all knowing, not all powerful. Even if you give this attribute to God you'll come back to the same questions. Where did these gods come from? Have they always been around? Were they created and if so who created them? I think in the end you have to admit (at least I think so) that despite all of what we know, there must be an uncreated being who had no cause else we would end up with infinite regression in this god line.

Perhaps this supreme God did leave it up to lesser gods to create the Earth. If you were to look at a building's blueprints you could probably find the text, John Smith Engineering. While John Smith may have drawn up the plans he probably didn't actually do any of the physical building of the property. That's left up to others. Yet he still would get the credit if it failed or succeeded.

The Bible does say "Let us create man in our image." Multplicity is stated. If you wish to take the Bible as a figurative text you could venture into some really odd scenarios here. Personally I belive it to be God talking to Jesus and this view seems to be backed up in the Gospel of John. (Read John chapter 1) There are slight variations between different translations, but many of the latter translations seem to indicate that the word was made through Jesus and not necessarially made first-hand. I don't know what you would do with this information or what bearing it would have on anything, but that's there to discuss if you wish.

It would seem to me that God first created Jesus, then Jesus was responsible for the entirety of everything else. I would like to note that although possibly created, Jesus is apparently created as God's equivalent or near equivalent. We see that he does submit himself to God's will but at the same time does not frown upon us worshiping him as God and even tells some of his disciples that "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".

Here I am rambling on and on about things I completely unsure about and can never prove. In the end we have to fall back to just having faith in what the Bible says and that while we don't unserstand the meaning of what all has happened, it will be apparent to us eventually. Without diving into specifics here, there is a great amount of evidence that what is written in the Bible is true. It is our understanding of what is written that is lacking.

Thank you, I like your post! We actually agree on most thoughts.

To clarify: I do believe that the Almighty or Jah (the Alpha & Omega) is the architect of our universe with Jesus (the Word, Michael etc.) as his prime player and builder.

Where I am trying to add some dimension to abstract reasoning is to think out of the box as you said. There is no proof as to whether there are other Gods in other dimensions or universes. But it is a thought and one that is backed up in many a science fiction story. I am not giving credence to science fiction except that: there are many before me and now, that are looking for other potentials, and aren't afraid to learn something new.

Many like myself are saying that we are receiving new enlightenment through the Gods (Jah, and Jesus). Who has the authority to say for a fact that I am wrong? The point is to question! Otherwise, what else might we be missing?

The challenge becomes difficult in getting away from the security of what we know or the familiarity of the ritual. It takes a risk to get out of ones comfort zone and to step away from complacency. We all want to chant the same things over and over and never repeat anything new or take on anything new, as that rocks our boat!

My mission statement is:

"A spiritual awakening is when your core spirit aligns with Gods reality.
It is my job to rock the boat to help you to do so!"

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Many like myself are saying that we are receiving new enlightenment through the Gods (Jah, and Jesus). Who has the authority to say for a fact that I am wrong?

Well, the only one with the authority to say you were wrong would be God since he's the only one with the absolute knowledge to counter any statements you have.

I can't fault you in that I wonder the same things. Why did there have to be a fallen race of people? Why couldn't we just have been left in a perfect state? While I do enjoy these discussions, I think the main differences we have are that I don't feel it necessary to have any new enlightenment. I believe that the knowledge you are seeking will come eventually but that it's not necessary and can even be a hinderance if we focus too much on it.

"Blessed are they who believe and yet have not seen". There's much to be said for faith. I feel it's somehow extremely important and that the revelation of all would obliterate your chance to have faith. Let's face it. When Jesus is revealed to the world, you won't need an ounce of faith to believe he is supreme over all. Faith is no more than trust without proof and trust shows our motives and intentions be that good or bad. So perhaps "all of this" is simply a necessary testing ground for the future. Take a new soldier at basic training if you will. You don't give new recruits nuclear weapons to test their ability to follow orders. You start with simple things like "Stand at attention and don't move until I say so." In the future we'll know much more. For now, I doubt we will ever know. Even if God appeared to you and told you the mysteries of the Universe. Who would believe you? It has to be a personal thing.

I think if you have the proper motives, these discussions are good. So please carry on and don't let me discourage you.


[edit on 7-4-2008 by dbates]

Of course you are right in that Jah is my only authority.

Here is where it gets interesting: supposing I may be off in some areas (not hard to imagine), but correct in the jest of what I am saying, if Jesus were to actually come down to earth and spoke a different language (in a spiritual sense), how would he be accepted? For everyone assumes that they will all see him and know that it is him. But will he? Or will he use puzzles and illustrations in order for only some to see? Or for just a few to grasp that it is he?

It is my belief that if he did indeed come down again, he would be bomb-blasted! I have received quite an example of it on all my threads. Try introducing a new thought and watch what happens! I'm ok with that, but then I am not Jesus. Supposing there are real significant discrepancies with Christianity and he exposes them as I am doing (because what is being taught is not correct?), will people accept him? Will they accept him if he is not conforming? Or will they discount him and speak of him as being "the Anti-Christ?" - A false prophet?

The question of the year is this: "Will Jesus actually be the one that will be called the Anti-Christ?"

These are good questions!

"The Gods have their own rules."
-Ovid

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Of course you are right in that Jah is my only authority.

...Supposing there are real significant discrepancies with Christianity and he exposes them as I am doing (because what is being taught is not correct?), will people accept him? Will they accept him if he is not conforming? Or will they discount him and speak of him as being "the Anti-Christ?" - A false prophet?

The question of the year is this: "Will Jesus actually be the one that will be called the Anti-Christ?"

These are good questions!

"The Gods have their own rules."
-Ovid

But Matrix, you just said that what is being taught is not correct. How do you know that what you're teaching is correct? I agree there are aspects of Christianity that seem off-base in some places, but you seem to be claiming that you and only you have the truth. I don't understand how you can claim that you're correct and everything else is false?

Will you clarify that for me please?

Thank you.

*Fixed quote

[edit on 8-4-2008 by dbates]

reply to post by Conspiriology


Ha ha Con, you big Con man you. Hows about you fire up the grill and invite us over to eat that big bear you shot?

But Matrix, you just said that what is being taught is not correct. How do you know that what you're teaching is correct? I agree there are aspects of Christianity that seem off-base in some places, but you seem to be claiming that you and only you have the truth. I don't understand how you can claim that you're correct and everything else is false?

It would be awfully narrow of me to think that only I have the truth! I would be no different than every religion out there. LOL!

It starts somewhere, right? How do things get invented? How does truth ever get discovered? If it scares some, I understand. But thank God it does not scare us all. Who would ever write the books? How would we have ever have discovered that the earth is round? How would we have discovered penicillin?

There have to be ones out there that are willing to take the risk. It also helps if one is not codependent!!! LOL!

reply to post by MatrixProphet

It would be awfully narrow of me to think that only I have the truth! I would be no different than every religion out there. LOL!

It starts somewhere, right? How do things get invented? How does truth ever get discovered? If it scares some, I understand. But thank God it does not scare us all. Who would ever write the books? How would we have ever have discovered that the earth is round? How would we have discovered penicillin?

There have to be ones out there that are willing to take the risk. It also helps if one is not codependent!!! LOL!

Well thank you for that answer, because the 2nd paragraph above is basically what I have said on another thread *somewhere* (I-R is old and forgets where things are). hee hee. I have to keep really good notes.

So, now I will ask you for your definition of codependency. It's a word you've used a couple times and I would like to understand your take on what it is. I can only guess that you're using the term in some sort of religious codependency way...perhaps like we are codependent on the Bible for our truth...or codependent on teachers or preachers to obtain our truths? Not sure what you're meaning so I would like to understand that.

I do know what codependency is in the psychiatric community, but this seems to be a little different connotation. Am I correct in assuming this?

Thanks again,

I_R