Rocket lifts off with secret satellite

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by hinky

 

Sorry but I thought that the US government was a government of the people by the people and for the people never read anywhere in the Constitution that It has rights as a entity to become its own government.

Well I guess sometime alone the way we have turn into a nation of secrecy, against its people .

I really find troublesome that some even think that this OK, natural and the right of government to do.

What happen to us the people for the people and by the people?

Yes it was take over by fascism.

I guess you forgot about Article 1, Section 8 where it states that Congress shall provide for the common Defence right?

This would be impossible to do if everything was out in the open such as sensitive technology to keep an eye on our enemies. Most of you are assuming it will be used for domestic spying.

[edit on 14-3-2008 by 4thDoctorWhoFan]

The secrecy of this nation is also a public affair, limited and no limited by what the peoples rights are to know and scrutinized the governments decisions on certain aspects that involved national security.

And not no all aspects of the government secret affairs are for public disclosure but they public is entitle to disclosure as it seems fit when the nation is not longer under danger from such disclosure

Bush Administration Documents
on Secrecy Policy

www.fas.org...

President Orders Review of Recommendations from the Public Interest Declassification Board, January 29, 2008

www.fas.org...

I'm sorta torn on this one. Taxation without representation? I can understand a lack of public disclosure, even support it. The question in my mind is whether there is Congressional oversight on this sort of thing.

As far as who paid for it: I pay sales AND income tax, so that would be me. Unless the military-industrial complex has some OTHER source of income...

I also don't think it's unreasonable to suspect domestic surveillance, but if we're not doing anything illegal we don't have anything to worry about right? Right? Please tell me that's right.

reply to post by Zelun


Well it has been attempts by congress to bring this issue of Bushes secrecy but as usual the decider have presidential powers and we have a congress that for six years did his biding and the the one we have now seems to be counting the days he has left as president to do something.

They are all morons, this the last time that it wa actually attempt to challenge and scrutinize the secrecy.

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM — MINORITY STAFF
SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS DIVISION
SEPTEMBER 14, 2004

SECRECY IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

oversight.house.gov...

The Bush Administration has systematically sought to limit disclosure of government records while expanding its authority to operate in secret. Taken together, the Administration’s actions represent an unparalleled assault on the principle of open government.

oversight.house.gov...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also, no offense, but online discussions are not going to get you any current details on this one.

Who said they would?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
which goes something like this; "Bush Bad",

No one that has studied this "secret evil" thinks Bush is anything significant. Perhaps you're either talking to the wrong people, or perhaps you are just using the worst and most uneducated ones as your example and labeling everyone as similar.

Either way, your opinion is misguided and inaccurate.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
"Secret Evil",

Rather ignorant of you to assume that there are no powerful people in this world that seek ultimate power.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
"NOW",

NOW?

Do you mean NWO?

The New World Order exists as a political idea. We can debate whether or not it is being played out or not on the world stage, but it is a political idea that does exist. If you do not think so, then pick up a dictionary.

Ideas do not die and are the most powerful thing known to us. Perhaps you should not write it off.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
"Conspiracy",

Conspiracy does not exist either?

Has there ever been a murder committed by two people in your area? Or have you heard of one somewhere? Yes?

Alright, there's a conspiracy.

Stop using the popular skewed definition of "conspiracy" and start using the real one.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
"I Am Right" is tragic.

Sorry, but you are using this same "I Am Right" mentality right now. You are writing off everything anyone else says because you assume that you are right.

So yes, it is tragic. It's also quite hypocritical.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some things you don't need to know, and this is one of them. It's for the NRO, these type of launches are not announced not discussed in detail, let it be.

Well they didnt cover too much. They are basically replacing the satellite they shot down last month

Originally posted by hinky
The credit card comparison really doesn't apply.

It seems some of you are having an issue connecting the two. I thought it was quite clear, but I think I'll put it in basic terms so everyone can understand:

Someone else is spending your money, and you aren't allowed to know what it was for or why. Would you be alright with that?

This government is spending our money, and we aren't allowed to know what it is or why it's being spent. Are you alright with that?

Don't give me this garbage about secrecy and our enemies. If you think we're that much further ahead of countries like Russia and China that they can't possibly have technicians, scientists and engineers that can figure out our technology, then you're naive.

Originally posted by hinky
Any national government has a certain amount of secrecy.

When they start paying for this stuff out of their own pocket and they start using this technology in our best interest rather than their own, then they can have secrecy. But until then, I'd like to know why my money is being spent on oppressing me and violating my civil liberties.

Originally posted by hinky
An announcement of liftoff time would allow countries not friendly with the USA to closely monitor the launch.

They can anyway. You assume they have as good of technology as we civilians do. They don't have to stake out bases with binoculars and telescopes to see a launch. They have their own satellites and their own radar systems. They do not need an announcement.

Originally posted by hinky
the USA has the most open government.

Really? Based on what?

Because according to the Human Development Index's section on "Corruption Perceptions Index" which is defined as "the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians" and as "the abuse of entrusted power for private gain", the United States is ranked 20th in the world.

Based on this study, Denmark, Finland and New Zealand have the most open governments.

Please stop equating powerful politicians, powerful military and the illusion of freedom as equaling open government.

Originally posted by hinky
Look at any major newspaper or internet news source (even here at ATS), you will find plenty of items about the USA government and what's it doing.

Such as?

Is this just your opinion? You have your opinions of what is going on in Iraq, or what is going on to combat terrorism, and since what is being reported fits your opinion, now all of a sudden it's the truth and they're being open?

Originally posted by hinky
There is nothing sinister about the satellite unless you want to put it into a conspiracy or you happen to be a citizen of a country the USA would be interested in watching....

Can you prove there's nothing sinister? Or do you just assume because claiming "conspiracy" somehow means you are a lunatic?

I do happen to be a citizen of a country the United States Government would be interested in watching. I live in the United States.

I don't know if this could be relevant to the rocket but when I was calling my husband today at work (he works for the local military base) he said that they are having problems with communications all morning (the system that supports the base communications is been scrabble) and even the phone communications was down.

Occurs this just an incident and by no means could be related to the replacement of communication satellites.

Originally posted by NovusOrdoMundi
It seems some of you are having an issue connecting the two. I thought it was quite clear, but I think I'll put it in basic terms so everyone can understand:

Has there ever been a murder committed by two people in your area? Or have you heard of one somewhere? Yes?

Alright, there's a conspiracy.

What is that? If a mole hill exists, then mountain must exist?

It's good to be open minded, but not so much that you are gullible to believe that highly unlikely hypothetical byzantine situations can fill the gaps of "secrecy," and "unknown." It's even more arrogant to assume everyone else is "ignorant" because they are not as preoccupied with your obession for trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

Worst of all, you're blaming someone else (the government) because you can't fit it in the hole.

reply to post by Mr. Ree


I noticed what part of my post you quoted.

Are you claiming the example I made is not that of a conspiracy?

Do you know the definition of a conspiracy?

Originally posted by Zelun

I also don't think it's unreasonable to suspect domestic surveillance, but if we're not doing anything illegal we don't have anything to worry about right? Right? Please tell me that's right.

Right.

This week at least

Like Marge said, it's becoming less and less 'For The People, Of The People' and more it's own government. Hence we keep seeing changes in legislature that affect our constitutional rights. Who knows what will be deemed 'illegal' tomorrow, and I assure you those flying surveillance systems arn't running out of gas anytime soon. Or maybe they will!

[edit on 043131p://14u10 by Lucid Lunacy]

The anxieties over this technology are based in realistic concerns.
Given this administration's track record, it's not unrealistic to worry that this technology will not only be used against foreign enemies, but against domestic dissidents.

Given that, it's best to know as much about it as possible.

According to Aviation Leak, it's a SIGINT satellite & not a photo recon bird.

More information can be found here.

Trade magazine Aviation Week and Space Technology reported earlier this year that the Atlas would be launching an eavesdropping satellite for intercepting signals intelligence.

"Such sigint spacecraft have proved important in tracking Al Qaeda and in searching for Osama Bin Laden," the magazine wrote.

Amateur sky-watchers who track satellites as a hobby predicted the new satellite would be launched into a highly elliptical orbit stretching 23,500 miles at its high point and 700 miles at its lowest, inclined 63 degrees to the equator.

The hobbyists believe this was the second in a new series of eavesdropping satellites. The inaugural West Coast launch of the Delta 4 rocket in June 2006 deployed its payload into such an orbit, known as a Molniya orbit.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Some things you don't need to know, and this is one of them. It's for the NRO, these type of launches are not announced not discussed in detail, let it be.

(and your reply following)

If indeed you are in West Point and you are 23, then I predict with that attitude you have a brilliant military career before you. You're just what they're looking for.

If you are that age, then you have the hubris of youth; which can get you far. But one day, if you don't close your mind, you'll realize that the world isn't made of the black-and-white certainties of youth (or in your case red-white-and-blue) and that in reality it is shades of grey.

You'll come to understand that reflection and skepticism and questioning are true wisdom, not blind allegiance and wanting desperately to belong, fearing uncertainty like it is a fault and not the first step towards understanding.

Now, to that attitude, it's pretty much, "shut up little people, and don't ask questions. We know better, go away and watch tv." It's condescending and arrogant in the extreme, and if you truly believe it, you'll make a perfect cog in the national security state. Which has nothing to do with the country you're so proud of. In fact, it is destroying this country.

Give a listen to Ike's farewell address to the nation, if you haven't already. It's about a little something he termed 'the military-industrial complex." And if you already have heard this speech, why then have you dismissed it so confidently?

I think Ike would be someone who knew a thing or two about the things you
pretend to know so well. He said that for the US to remain a free and open society, we had to guard against and reign in the accreting power of the MIC. Well, it was already too late when he said it, and it's gone so far by now that we find people like you saying things like this.

And this--the corrosive mentality of hubris and paranoia that is the very essence of the national security state--is fundamentally antithetical to the founding principles of our republic.

So google Ike, and listen, and learn.

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan

Most of you are assuming it will be used for domestic spying.

And you are assuming it will be used for our protection. That is the whole point of the thread. We do not know what it is going to be used for. I know you have trouble figuring out the point sometimes so maybe this will help make it easier for you.
We do need to be made aware of these things. No one is claiming that we need to now how they work, or what they are made out of. That I could care less about. What I want to know is whether this is going to be used to spy on US citizens. Have you not been paying attention to what is going on around you? If you feel secure just believing everything the government tells you, then I hope you have fun when they come knocking on your door and drag your butt away.
If it was as simple as them replacing the satellite they shot down recently, then why don't they just say that. If they did, this would be no big deal. It is not made a conspiracy or secret by me or any other ATS member. It is made a secret by the government that has been sworn to protect your liberties and freedom. Sorry, but I cannot accept the government or anyone else telling me to just go about my business and put all of my faith in what they say.

We have had a range of arguments from sensible to stupid, depending on point of view. I particularly enjoy the postings that quote everything said, line by line, with a rebuttal; as if a person can't make a complete statement, but only bullet points.

People have used a crime to illustrate a comparison, but it's seems to be logical with their upbringing and thought process.

Some people seem to think that every aspect of the USA government should be wide open for everyone to explore in it's most minute detail with a line by line explanation for each budget item. However, this only applies to the USA. I'm sure we would be having this same conversation if we were all citizens of China, North Korea, hell, even Russia. Only in America could this be done.

Secrecy has many forms that people don't associate except for "the government".

If you buy a Coke, does that allow you to know the formula, which is a closely guarded secret of the company. How about all the herbs and spices from KFC (much speculation on this one). Same argument, different players. You pay taxes, you want to know.

There are things people just don't need to know. In business AND the government.

If it really toasts your ass that there are secrets, get involved. Not here whining and moaning, but at a Federal government level. Run for office and pass a law requiring open access.

Change the system....