Voting for Obama because You are Black and He is Black makes you...

reply to post by SteveR


It's easy to not see any need for retaliation when you don't feel you're the one whose been wronged.

reply to post by SteveR


Again, you are generalizing your own beliefs and mind set on the whole.

You believe there is no issue at hand among whites and blacks. That's fine. But not everybody feels the way you do. If I were a member of a population that shared the history that this one does, and I had an opportunity to make the strides that are being afforded, why would I turn away from it?

If you were a black man with a wife and young children, and you felt that another black man as President was in your best interests of the longevity of you and your family in this country, would you honestly not take it? I think you would, because I know I would.

And again, I'm not trying to state that I agree with what is happening. I am only stating that I understand. Is it right? No, I would like to think that every vote casted is done so from an informed position and done so because they genuinely believe this is the best person for the job. But the fact is, very few votes are actually casted as such. Very few voters are actually "aware".

Some will vote for Obama because he is black. Others will vote for Hillary because she is a woman. Is it any different than voting for someone because he or she is a democrat? Or if he or she is a republican? It's all the same. How many people regularly vote for the candidate solely on the political affiliation?

Rest easy Steve, a black president is not going to jeopardize the white man's place as the dominant culture. Which is the problem that you allude to. You do not want to hear of them "fighting back" because you are aware that whites are the dominant race and you don't want that to change.

Honestly, why would you? We are a selfish society for the most part, and we look out for our own. Which is what you are doing here. But don't fault someone else for doing the same.

Obviously you have never been down south, or been a black man. This is one of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever seen anyone say.

Ok QueenIsis. Educate me to your terrible injustices and suffering.

And explain why this justifies subverting the democratic process for the rest of the country?

92% of US Blacks are voting together and now the statistics prove the observation!

Good luck.

Originally posted by SteveR
92% of US Blacks are voting together and now the statistics prove the observation!

Wrong, and your previous statistic was only for Mississippi. Why is it now for all of the country?

Edit: While were at it, do you have a link to back up this claim of 92%? I have found several statistics that discuss age, gender, religion, etc., but I can not turn over anything on race. I'd be interested to see how these numbers are panning out in other states. So if you have one, thank you in advance.

[edit on 13-3-2008 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
You do not want to hear of them "fighting back" because you are aware that whites are the dominant race and you don't want that to change.

I will address the rest of your valuable post in good time, however this line jumps right out at me.

We have a fundamental disagreement that Blacks are being nationally oppressed in the 21st Century. You beleive they are responding to current conditions, I beleive they are emotionally reacting to injusticies in the history books.

At least, that is the best excuse I can make for them.

In what way do you feel Whites are dominant today? A Black man is equal under law to me. No? If you're talking about population then I am really amused. The Blacks have it bad because they do not make up 50% of the U.S. population?

Seriously, I'm curious as to how you feel we are 'dominant'.

reply to post by SteveR


How would you feel if you went to vote and were turned away because of your skin color? How patriotic would you feel? Are you going to lead us to believe that this doesn't happen to black voters? Does this same phenomenon happen to an equal proportion of white voters?

See here.

A black voter is 900% more likely to have their ballot spoiled, and a Hispanic 500% more likely.

Is this not a problem?

reply to post by SteveR


I posted the definition of racism and showed you what you are saying is wrong, but for some reason you have not defended your first argument, that it's racism instead of predjudice, like Chissler says.

And if you are really that blind to where you can't see that racism is still a big problem, especially down south, than both myself and Chissler are wasting our breath just talking to you, because you've obviously made up your mind on ridiculous, false information.

I can't believe that you need my specific examples described to you to see racism.

Originally posted by chissler
How would you feel if you went to vote and were turned away because of your skin color?

I own the documentary by Palast. The case here is Bush vs Gore, the spoiling of Black votes were just part of the tactic. I don't think this is indicative of how Blacks are treated in our society.

Originally posted by QueenIsis
I can't believe that you need my specific examples described to you to see racism.

On the other hand I can't believe that significant racism exists in 2008. Perhaps you have been taught the victim mentality by your peers.

Originally posted by SteveR
I don't think this is indicative of how Blacks are treated in our society.

I'll agree to disagree on this point.

The simple fact that every President of the United States of America has been a white male, is that not a glowing fact that whites are the proud owner of the "dominant culture" label? Well first of all, are we in agreement that whites and blacks do not share a common culture?

Why is it that in the National Footbal League they have been forced to make it a rule that any organization seeking a new head coach must interview a black man? Why would they have to implement that as a rule? Previous to implementing this rule, black men were nowhere to be found. Blacks were equally proportionate as some of the better players in the league, which typically translates into coaching positions. Yet black men were never moving up in the ranks. Why? Now that they have implemented this rule, black men are getting an opportunity to have themselves heard and they are beginning to get jobs as head coaches.

But why does it have to be a rule to get them through the door?

The basic need of having such a rule is an indication that whites are the dominant culture. And if we are the dominant culture, other cultures that are encompassed by minorities are at a disadvantage.

reply to post by SteveR


Wow, now I know what Bigbert is talking about in this thread. What a joke. I guess the KKK is stuff of the past too. Or how the N word has disappeared over time. Or salaries being lower for blacks too.

Originally posted by chissler
Voting for Obama because he is black is not racism. It is prejudicial, but it is not racism. Racism is about power, not just the act of prejudging.

I hear ya' but ... Isn't the position of POTUS full of power? Aren't people who want to put a black man in a position of power, simply because he's black, to make him powerful, being prejudiced AND racist? If people want the position of power filled with a black man - does that cross the line from prejudice into racism? In your opinion chissler??

I'm not sure if it's prejudice or racist. I'm just asking ....

reply to post by FlyersFan


I had always thought that racism was a double edged sword that worked both ways. But it truly doesn't. And for anyone that does not know me and does question my motifs behind my post(s), I am a white man and I am not an American. So I am posting here from a neutral perspective.

Racism is about power. It is about the superiority of one race over another.

To truly invoke racism, one must actually have the power.

White culture is the dominant culture. Think of our schools curriculum. In recent years we have seen African studies become a class. The history of a whole race is being taught in a single class. The history of the white culture is only completed when we receive our diploma. Is this not another indication of who possesses the label of the dominant culture?

People who choose to believe that the black culture is racist towards the white culture do not understand the term they are throwing around. We can all be prejudicial. But to invoke racism, one must have the power. Given the parameters of this situation, racism is working for whites and against the blacks.

We have seen it in this thread already and I am sure this post will garner the same. "Oh we're not in the 60's anymore." But that is a white mindset.

I know if I were a black man and I was disenfranchised as a voter, I would feel as if the 60's were alive and well. So I do believe that the dominant culture should withhold judgment if they can not speak from experience.

But that is only my opinion.

Originally posted by chissler
To truly invoke racism, one must actually have the power.

That's why I asked the question. There is power in a voting block. There is power in the position of POTUS. So if people. enmasse, vote for Obama simply because he's black, then they are using power and putting him in power. (Putting him in power either to further their own needs/wishes OR they think it will somehow right a racial wrong from the past.)

So I'm still not sure if that is prejudice or racism.

White culture is the dominant culture.

I disagree. There is no dominant culture. Every part of this country is different from every other part. But that's been discussed at length and to try to again would be kicking a dead horse I think. Best not to ...

So I do believe that the dominant culture should withhold judgment if they can not speak from experience.

Most all of us have experienced unfairness and bigotry in life and many of us have experienced it, or continue to experience it, to an extreme that it is a negative effect on our lives. Anti-white, anti-black, anti-asian, anti-catholic, anti-jew, anti-woman, anti-man, anti-northerner, anti-southerner, anti-america, anti-________ (fill in the blank). It's okay to call prejudice and/or racism what it is, even if you haven't experienced that particular aspect of it. IMHO.

But that is only my opinion.

That's what I asked for. Thank you. I'm still not sure if voting for someone based upon skin color alone is prejudice or bigotry. When politics enters the formula there is power involved. At least, that's what I see.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You may have experienced individual prejudices, but have you ever faced systemic prejudice, racism, and bigotry?

I haven't. But it exists.

The deep rooted prejudices that exist in our society result in favoritisms for the dominant culture. And western society has been built by white men so are we going to actually believe that the perks are not slanted our way?

And to deny that systemic racism does not exist because one has not been forced to experience it is grossly naive.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is power in a voting block. There is power in the position of POTUS. So if people. enmasse, vote for Obama simply because he's black, then they are using power and putting him in power. (Putting him in power either to further their own needs/wishes OR they think it will somehow right a racial wrong from the past.)

I can agree to that. Not 100%, but I see your point.

Originally posted by chissler
have you ever faced systemic prejudice, racism, and bigotry?

For nine years - prejudice and bigotry. Not racism.
Anti-woman. Anti-Northerner. Anti-Catholic
It effected everything - my getting a job. My pay. And even how seriously I was taken at work.

(Alabama stinks)

to deny that systemic racism does not exist because one has not been forced to experience it is grossly naive.

I didn't deny it. All I said was that I disagreed and that there is no dominant culture because every part of this country is different from every other part and each part has it's own 'power' and culture. But as I said - that subject has been beaten to death.

My QUESTION .. and it's a question because I don't know .... I still don't know if it's racism or prejudice because the power of politics is involved. That is all I'm trying to figure out.

Oh chissler .. I think you alluded to something and I found it interesting. Am I right that you feel that blacks aren't capable of racism because they don't have 'power'? They are capable of prejudice but not racism? Am I correct in gleening that from your post?

reply to post by FlyersFan


My apologies for assuming gender. We've had exchanges in the past and I know that you are a woman, but it did slip my mind as I submitted my previous post. I agree 100% that women face systemic prejudices.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh chissler .. I think you alluded to something and I found it interesting. Am I right that you feel that blacks aren't capable of racism because they don't have 'power'? They are capable of prejudice but not racism? Am I correct in gleening that from your post?

On the surface, this appears to be an obvious yes. But when you consider all of the societal implications, it really is a complex answer. It would be naive to say that a whole race is incapable of racism. So I will say that yes they are, but I will also state that most times people slander a minoritiy for being racist, the term does not apply. Most times it is merely prejudice.

So yes, they are capable.

But most of the examples that we as a society use to represent racist minorities are not examples of racism. They are examples of prejudices.

To prove the topic at hand to be racism, we would have to prove that the voters feel that Obama is in fact superior based on his race, and not just share a skin color. People can vote for him because he is black without truly feeling he is superior.

Like I said, very complex.

reply to post by chissler


I'm not sure how "nuetral" you're being Chissler. I agree with many, if not most, of your statements. Where I disgree with you and some of the others is your insistence that it's not wrong for voters to "try" to address past wrongs with another illconcieved wrong. Voting blocks are inevitable, I fail to see how they can be avoided, doesn't make 'em right, though.

reply to post by seagull


I have said all along that I think it is wrong. What I have said is that I can at least understand. So while I can empathize with those that are doing it, I am not in agreement.

From here.

Originally posted by chissler
I would like to think that every vote casted is done so from an informed position and done so because they genuinely believe this is the best person for the job. But the fact is, very few votes are actually casted as such. Very few voters are actually "aware".

Empathy and agreement are not synonymous.

I'm curious what I have said or done that leads you to feel that I am biased in some way surrounding this concept.

[edit on 14-3-2008 by chissler]

I Totally agree but...

We are all racist to some degree weither or not we will admit it

If Obama was a white guy he would have already withdrawn and been backing someone else by now. Oprah would have never backed him which equals= no cult following doing what ever Oprah wishes, no large amout of $$$ to run adds everywhere. People around the country would say that's nice but being a former Alderman, and 1 tour in the Senate does not make you Presidental matieral yet. Come back in ten years.