Have Christians Been Duped?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by budro

 

To: John Matrix - I have you on ignore (so am unable to read your posts) as I feel we have nothing to discuss. Thank you for your attention to my threads, anyway!

Censorship? I thought that was something you stood against? This is obvious Hypocracy on your part.

Watch out ATS members. If you disagree with the OP he insults you, then if you keep coming back to show him his views are wrong he ignores you.

I don't have ONE person on my ignore list, even though I have endured insults directed at me, false assumptions made about me, and out right lies and misrepresentations made about me.

There are others on here that are interested in seeing the LIES behind your MASK.


[edit on 15-1-2009 by John Matrix]

The proposition that the bible is a mass control instrument seems inconsistent with its content. For instance, take a look at Samuel(s), Kings and Chronicles. A rather disconcerting bit of history associated with the rise and fall of the Jewish kingdom. How does this fit into a conspiracy to control us through religion? Or perhaps the book of Esther or Ruth would be equally interesting to look at. Is the kinsman redeemer just another religious fanatic exercising hegemony over mankind? Or the idea of the good news, that God, recognizing the inability of creation to make sufficient sacrifice for rebellion against the creator, came in the form of a man and took our penalty for us to save us from eternal separation from him. Just exactly how does believing that enslave me? It doesn't enslave me, it frees me from my sin and restores my relationship with the creator.

IMO part of the fallacy in the argument you're making is that you assume that which calls itself the 'church' is the church and that it accurately represents the teachings of the bible. Either that, or you simply reject the notion that man is a sinful creature and/or God's authority to do with us as he will. Should I reject Physics because physicists keep bringing up this annoying notion of gravity? In my opinion, sin is exactly like gravity. We feel it every day, it limits what we can do, and we cannot escape it for very long. Would you deny that sin is what destroys our world and daily lives?

I think a more accurate statement would be that it is hard to find a church that teaches sound doctrine. Most churches aren't around very long before they come under attack to destroy their sound teaching. They're effectively invaded. The conspiracy isn't that sound teachers of the gospel want to enslave the world, the conspiracy is that Satan wants to enslave the world and takes every opportunity to sow confusion among believers and destroy sound doctrine.

Does this mean that those of the true church should hunt down and expel those with improper doctrine or insufficient evidence of their faith? Absolutely not! This is exactly why James, John and Paul went to the trouble of identifying the characteristics of (and evidence of) true faith. It gives all of us the chance to pursue correct doctrine and sound teaching and to continuously to the point of death try to reach the lost.

I leave it with a final thought - consider the beattitudes (Mt 5). Is that a manifesto for world domination or a prescription for sanctification? Is that pablum for the masses or the axioms of faith?

I assumed that this was a rhetorical question when I saw it but then realised that it was just incorrect. Let me correct it for you.

Have sheeple been duped by all religions? (And, for those that don’t understand the word rhetorical…… The answer is YES! )

reply to post by mlmijyd


Funny, a sheep calling believers sheeple. How ironic. Look in the mirror, you're just a sheep from another sheepfold stuck on the dirty side of the fence.

Instead of attempting to use derogatory terms in your arguments that actually play into the basic assertions of the bible, why don't you back up what you say with something substantive?

Tell us, Mr. Sheep, what is rationality?

reply to post by Ichabod

I think a more accurate statement would be that it is hard to find a church that teaches sound doctrine. Most churches aren't around very long before they come under attack to destroy their sound teaching. They're effectively invaded. The conspiracy isn't that sound teachers of the gospel want to enslave the world, the conspiracy is that Satan wants to enslave the world and takes every opportunity to sow confusion among believers and destroy sound doctrine.

I understand your points. But we see it differently.

I look at the Bible as a tool for mankind to use that actually leads us to God, and then religion uses it to keep man enslaved.

It is divinely written, but to expose man. Yes, Satan is the instrument that fulfills a role of dividing the masses and has done so, effectively.

He also, helped IMO in writing the Bible (as was planned in heavenly congress), especially the NT. This will no doubt trouble you, and I expect that. But I believe we are living in the real days of enlightenment.

This enlightenment is to free mankind and to help us to develop a one - on - one relationship with God without the religious filters. After all, no two religions can agree on the very books of the Bible that all of you quote! This in itself is proof that there may be truth to what I am saying.

Take what you want and leave the rest or not!

reply to post by Ichabod


Guess I'm going straight to hell or will the all loving God from that Bible of yours save me? You getting upset with a 'non-believer'? I've seen the results of that piece of fiction as it's sheeple followers cower behind it, use it to justify their lack of justice, takes them into wars to smite down their unholy foe and hope and pray that their lives will have some meaning, when they die? Your belief is based on a fear of actually having to come to terms with the unthinkable, that your born, live a crap life with no control and then die. So you need to have your blind faith confirmed by banding with all the other sheeple in your religious pens, comforting each others fears with your God or even worse your inner-god.

If it was just a harmless cult I'd look over your hobby but its not, its as close to a word that in its self doesn't exist..... Evil.

Get behind me satin!

reply to post by mlmijyd

If it was just a harmless cult I'd look over your hobby but its not, its as close to a word that in its self doesn't exist..... Evil.

Get behind me satin!

Does it produce positive results or negative?

I would be lying if I said I didn't gain anything from Christianity, for I did. But did it ring true? NO! Do I throw the baby out with the bath water? NO! I just try to understand better what has been shielded from us for centuries.

Religion was Satan's idea and he was brilliant!! But make no mistake: HE is on the same team with God. Now, we are figuring out - HOW! And it isn't like we were told.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Jews and Christians agree on the Torah and to a lesser extent the OT. They certainly disagree on what makes a prophet and who they were, and whether various books were divinely inspired.

Your assertion that the bible is tool that leads us toward God, to a one-on-one relationship (if I'm understanding you correctly), assumes that we can understand what is expressed in the bible. In my personal experience, the bible had no meaning for me whatsoever until my salvation experience. Thus, I would agree that it leads us toward a better relationship with God, but I couldn't get that without my salvation experience - so, what do you think is going on there?

Originally posted by mlmijyd
reply to post by Ichabod

 

Guess I'm going straight to hell or will the all loving God from that Bible of yours save me? You getting upset with a 'non-believer'? I've seen the results of that piece of fiction as it's sheeple followers cower behind it, use it to justify their lack of justice, takes them into wars to smite down their unholy foe and hope and pray that their lives will have some meaning, when they die? Your belief is based on a fear of actually having to come to terms with the unthinkable, that your born, live a crap life with no control and then die. So you need to have your blind faith confirmed by banding with all the other sheeple in your religious pens, comforting each others fears with your God or even worse your inner-god.

If it was just a harmless cult I'd look over your hobby but its not, its as close to a word that in its self doesn't exist..... Evil.

Get behind me satin!

As much as I like satin...haha.

You're putting a little too much bile into this unless you're actually Satan. In that case, I would have thought you'd come up with a better response.

You're mad because churches, presumably filled with followers of Christ, are fallible? Who is responsible for that? God? Or are you mad at the good things they accomplish also? Or would you even admit that they accomplish good things? Or are you simply stating your manifesto - that we're born, live rotten lives, and then sink into the ground to be devoured by worms?

I asked you about rationality because you and your sheep friends need to consider it and consider it carefully. Inevitably, I watch these arguments start out with a testimony to the power of logic (which is not rationality by the way) and then quickly devolve into nothing more than a statement of their sometimes perverse preferences. Yet, they attack those who wish to turn over their perverse preferences to a higher power, do so, and receive enlightenment worth sharing. Have you never met anyone improved by their salvation experience?

Go on raging, but you'll eventually come to the conclusion that we all like sheep have gone astray. God is the answer to our troubles and knowing him is the way out.

The OP is playing Christians for fools. Don't be the OP's instument. He is not interested in intelligent discourse. Whenever someone Proves the OP is wrong he plays the brush off game. He has no response to the wisdom of the Spirit of God. He just declares himself as right and doesn't learn a thing.

Don't play his game. It's a waste of time. He is completely unteachable. I tried reasoning with him from scripture for several days on another thread. He flipped out and is now ignoring me.

reply to post by Ichabod


The salvation experience is the key. We dont need the bible just like we dont need teachers but both are of good use and certainly can help. Its God that is needed.

Originally posted by Ichabod

I think a more accurate statement would be that it is hard to find a church that teaches sound doctrine. Most churches aren't around very long before they come under attack to destroy their sound teaching. They're effectively invaded. The conspiracy isn't that sound teachers of the gospel want to enslave the world, the conspiracy is that Satan wants to enslave the world and takes every opportunity to sow confusion among believers and destroy sound doctrine.

Does this mean that those of the true church should hunt down and expel those with improper doctrine or insufficient evidence of their faith? Absolutely not! This is exactly why James, John and Paul went to the trouble of identifying the characteristics of (and evidence of) true faith. It gives all of us the chance to pursue correct doctrine and sound teaching and to continuously to the point of death try to reach the lost.

If you are honest about it I think you'll have a hard time disputing the fact that the church is not the church it is suppose to be according to the bible or it would not be effectively attacked to the extent that sound teaching was no longer at the forefront of every message. That aside from the fact that "Sound teaching" should not need to be more than, here let me introduce you to God, and he will lead you into all truth.

There should be no question of should the church hunt down those with improper doctrine. According to the word we dont need a teacher but the church would have you believe otherwise. Why is that?

Satan is able to sow confusion among believers and destroy sound doctrine because as a whole we are looking for answers from a pulpit and most are unable to stand on their own to approach God.

I feel that those who do progress beyond what the mainstream church has to offer become as I and likely the OP feel. There is allot to question, few solid answers and potentially enlightenment on the other side of religion. God through Jesus has brought me to this place and you can condemn if you like but I have a simple relationship with a higher power who is leading me into all truth.

reply to post by John Matrix


I have never seen " he " used so much!

Especially not when it is actually a " she ".

'"She " has not ignored anyone, only the dogmatic posters who keep spouting the same song and dance. Go ahead and read again, I'm sure you will see " she " has addressed most everyone.

Good day.

Originally posted by John Matrix

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by redwolf.of.odin

 

I think Christian have been duped in many ways. First of all I do not agree with all the revisions and rewriting of the bible witch changes the true meaning of what is said.

Yes, the Bible has been written and revised many times and all based on copies. That in itself is interesting. So it brings up the question: what DOES God want us to believe?

What? Why do you comment like this. You are not an expert. Consult the expert Scholars before you spout such assumptions. You have no clue what is involved in the process of revision or New translations. Your statement above is proof. You should stick with the occupation you have and stop leading people down the path of confusion and Hell.

You must be the expert eh? Would you also say that one should not question authority or has God given you the wherewith all to rightly judge some one by a comment on a blog? What did I miss, do you know this person to be an ignorant fool or is it your enlightenment that allows you such wisdom?

You sir, sound exactly like the kind of "elder" or "Deacon" that causes people like me to question what is really going on in the church and wonder where is the love that God so openly speaks of in the bible.

For that I give you mad props. Ive been set free by my disgust for self righteous, legalistic religious people who were more concerned about their image than the opportunity right in front of them. That is unless the opportunity could make them look good.

Bring on you "wisdom of the spirit of God". Oh and before you say it, it is not God's wisdom I am challenging it is yours.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by budro]

Exactly why does anyone "need" God?
Exactly what is this "relationship" with this God?

What if it should turn out that there really is no such thing as "God"?
Suspend you belief system for a moment and answer this question.

How do you rationalize Yahweh/Jehovah/El Shadaih's bad behavior?
To me this creature/thing is a a psycopathic killer.
I see no love there.

reply to post by Ichabod

Your assertion that the bible is tool that leads us toward God, to a one-on-one relationship (if I'm understanding you correctly), assumes that we can understand what is expressed in the bible. In my personal experience, the bible had no meaning for me whatsoever until my salvation experience. Thus, I would agree that it leads us toward a better relationship with God, but I couldn't get that without my salvation experience - so, what do you think is going on there?

Actually, that is not what I meant. Sorry, for not being clear, my fault.

The Bible contains very accurate truths. But it also has much deception. Just like a mystery novel it has well placed sub-plots and characters that mislead. But a great plot is behind the sub-plots. Christianity does not have this awareness, hence, they buy into the LIE.

Interesting, eh? You may not agree, but try to view it in that light a little, and much more will make sense.

Actually, my growth spiritually took off greatly when I started to question it! And especially after I left religion.

Originally posted by OhZone
Exactly why does anyone "need" God?
Exactly what is this "relationship" with this God?

What if it should turn out that there really is no such thing as "God"?
Suspend you belief system for a moment and answer this question.

How do you rationalize Yahweh/Jehovah/El Shadaih's bad behavior?
To me this creature/thing is a a psycopathic killer.
I see no love there.

It is hard to explain this "relationship" but in its simplest form it is having a good friend by your side that you can talk to and on the more complex side it is literally feeling his presence which to me is my source of peace and tranquility.

Every one has their own reason for "needing" God or for that matter not needing God. For me I was concerned for my salvation from the pits of hell, I was scared and I think that is the wrong reason to tell people about God. Once you feel His presence, no one will be able to convince you He is not real and that He is not right here right now.

What bad behavior are you referring to? I know where the question stems from but just because some one says they are doing something in the name of God doesn't mean they are doing what God would have them do.

reply to post by budro

I feel that those who do progress beyond what the mainstream church has to offer become as I and likely the OP feel. There is allot to question, few solid answers and potentially enlightenment on the other side of religion. God through Jesus has brought me to this place and you can condemn if you like but I have a simple relationship with a higher power who is leading me into all truth.

Yes, and it is not for the faint of heart!!

Doors are opening up steadily and rapidly. More and more enlightenment is coming forth. Let it be understood, I am one of many who is doing, or speaking, what I am shown to speak. There are many who are searching and finding the answers.

For that I give you mad props. Ive been set free by my disgust for self righteous, legalistic religious people who were more concerned about their image than the opportunity right in front of them. That is unless the opportunity could make them look good.

I always say; kick the dust off your feet and walk away! Apparently, some cannot do that. I understand, because it is felt that I am a false prophet and will lead people away. If someone's faith is that weak then it must not have been real to begin with!!

Faith as you are essentially saying can be based on credulity. Just because someone says they have faith in God does not mean THEY actually have a relationship with God. They confuse it with the relationship they have with religion, and I threaten that.


Thanks for your post and contribution!



reply to post by OhZone

Exactly why does anyone "need" God?
Exactly what is this "relationship" with this God?

What if it should turn out that there really is no such thing as "God"?
Suspend you belief system for a moment and answer this question.

How do you rationalize Yahweh/Jehovah/El Shadaih's bad behavior?
To me this creature/thing is a a psycopathic killer.
I see no love there.

Why not ask us: "What do you GET out of your relationship with a God?"...

"How, and who, do you understand God to be? Is it the one that religion teaches, or do you actually have something different?"

OhZone are you sure God is cruel, or misunderstood? Supposing the interpretation that has been passed down is not totally the whole picture?

Are you satisfied with your interpretation? Are you left with any questions besides the usual ones all atheists ask?

See, I am not going to throw scripture at you. Are you surprised? I personally don't think the answers lie there. I was a Bible thumper in the past, but have found that the majority of my answers had very little to do with the Bible.

I started by writing. I found that I would write all my anger, and frustration, and questions that religion could never answer honestly, on paper. I would ask this God some of the very questions you asked, never expecting a response.

I soon noticed that I would ask questions on paper, and then would write the answer without being aware of what I was writing. It was astounding! I would go back and read what was written, and found that the answers were there!

I can relate to the famous writer, Ernest Hemingway:

"I just take dictation."

I did this for many months, or longer, before I didn't need the paper anymore.

Try it. What have you got to lose?


[edit on 15-1-2009 by MatrixProphet]

reply to post by John Matrix


Exactly what right have you to say that I don’t know what I’m talking about? I was raise Christian my father was a preacher I have read the bible cover to cover many times over and have a better understanding of it than anyone I know. You condemn those that post here like all other organized religions have done for years. What happened to cast the moat out of your own eye before you cast the beam out of your bothers? Or judge not that you be not judged. You presume to think that you’re an expert on all thing and we are all ignorant fools this is the same view that sparked the crusades. And plunged us into the dark ages. A fool like you looked at the Muslim faith and said they are evil because they are not our faith. But the Muslim faith is as holy as the Christians or the Jews. All that slaughter and bloodshed because of ignorant fools like you

reply to post by John Matrix


you know whats funny your choose of what to reply to i have posted my basic beliefs on here you just must have over looked that one when you where condemning everyone.