What would prove to you that 9/11 was not a conspiracy?

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Now about that picture?

Well what did you want to know about the picture? I mean we have no video or photo of Flight 77 actually hitting the Pentagon.


As far as DNA the NIST DNA experts had to come up with new testing just for 9/11.

[edit on 9-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

Well I guess we need to know whether or not a plane actually hit the pentagon before we can be sure that this isn't an honest to God conspiracy don't we?



[edit on 9-3-2008 by KMFNWO]

Oh, and the DNA thing doesn't wash with flight 93. Nothing out of the ordinary there, no buildings or such, just a plane hitting the ground. i want verifiable DNA proof of the occupants on that plane according to its mainifest. Because so far all I have is a coroner reporting that he could not obtain so much as a drop of blood.

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Well I guess we need to know whether or not a plane actually hit the pentagon before we can be sure that that this isn't an honest to God conspiracy don't we?

Well it might have been a plane, the question is if it was Flight 77.

But since the FAA and FBI are not releasing most of the evidence (even with FOIA request) its hard to know what hit the Pentagon.

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Oh, and the DNA thing doesn't wash with flight 93. Nothing out of the ordinary there, no buildings or such, just a plane hitting the ground.

Well heat destroys DNA so if there was a fire that destroyed the plane (like the official story states) then the DNA would have been destroyed.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Fair answer - and I don't think it was a laser beam from planet X, but I have my doubts as to it being a plane, and if that is the case then - we have been lied to - and therefore "we have a Conspiracy"

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Need to see if there are any other cases when DNA was irretrievable from aircraft crashes, or where no bodies were ever recovered, and I don't mean the Bermuda triangle.

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Fair answer - and I don't think it was a laser beam from planet X, but I have my doubts as to it being a plane, and if that is the case then - we have been lied to - and therefore "we have a Conspiracy"

Well actually the official story is a conspiracy theory since it is based on a conspiracy (terrorist planning and hijacking planes)

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Need to see if there are any other cases when DNA was irretrievable from aircraft crashes, or where no bodies were ever recovered, and I don't mean the Bermuda triangle.

www.nist.gov...

Due to the nature of the World Trade Center disaster, it quickly became evident that traditional methods for performing DNA typing were not likely to be fully successful in identifying all of the recovered remains. Traditional DNA ID methods depend on the presence of long, intact segments of DNA in order to accurately type the sample. The DNA in many of the samples recovered in this situation were so fragmented that these standard methods were ineffective.

In early November 2001, Dr. Robert Shaler, the director of the WTC DNA identification effort, contacted me and asked if I would be willing to develop some new DNA tests to help in the identification effort. I agreed to fast track our research efforts over the next several months and produce some test materials for his laboratory to try by January 2002.

[edit on 9-3-2008 by ULTIMA1]

The thing that irks me about all of this business is why didn't they just follow Hitlers lead and "Tell a big lie" The planes hit the buildings - the first responders came in and THEN the secondary bombs went off increasing the loss of life. No we get some crap where for the first time in the History of the modern steel skyscraper the whole damn shooting match comes down due to fire. Surely they knew this would be heavily scrutinized, why didn't they just follow through. Insurgents are know for setting off devices, drawing a crowd and then setting off the real fireworks. this was even cited in "The Kingdom"

If by "conspiracy" the OP is actually referring to a level of complicity or even intent, by factions operating within our politico-economic system, I would simply have to say that the question posed is illogical and impossible to answer. The conspiracy has already been proven to exist, through the deliberate attempts by those in power to obfuscate the facts of the matter.

Portions of the "official" version have already been proven to be wrong, without any correction ever being made. When those who we trusted and relied upon to give us an accurate version of events, are proven to have lied, then their entire version of events is no longer credible.

Let me make an example. It is not illegal to bury a dead body. But if you decide to bury a person who has been killed as the result of a crime (murder/manslaughter) without the facts of the death being reported first, then you become complicit in the crime itself.

So this is where we stand now. At the very least, large factions of our national leadership are complicit in the crimes perpetrated on 9/11 due to their precise and deliberate obfuscation of the facts. It stands to reason that the reason for this complicity, might well be motivated by the desire to prevent further culpability on their part from being determined.

At this point, there is an impending need for a thorough and independent investigation to be carried out, to determine the precise facts of the events themselves, the circumstances surrounding the attacks, and the deliberate nature of the flawed investigation which followed. Such an investigation would require that all evidence held by any government agency and/or private entity involved in the initital investigation, be opened without hinderance to the scrutiny of a large number of investigatiors who had been thoroughly vetted to substantiate their own impartiality.

In short, when the government lied, they lost all privilege to withold evidence for any reason, even those claimed to be in the interests of national seurity.

There is another argument that I would like to throw into the mix here. I often hear people defending the official account of 9/11 by saying, "Well, if they are so omnipotent, why did they mess up this, or leave out that, when they could have just gotten it right the first time."

The truth is, they wanted it known what they had done. Not by everyone. Most people have already been brainwashed enough to believe anything they say anyway, so those people are not a threat to those in power. It is the people who still think and who still believe in their rights that are a threat to those in power. The message of 9/11 was meant for those people, sometimes called "truthers" as if that were a bad thing. It is a message of fear. It tells anyone who second guesses the official version, "beware, look what we can do, and no one can do anything about it."

The reason that some gaping holes in the story were left open, is so that they could send true patriots a clear message...


...and not just about 9/11, but of everything that has come since then, and everything they still have yet to impose.

[edit on 3/9/0808 by jackinthebox]

I can not make my mind up over 911 being a conspiracy or not

This was the headlines on 911 2001 in the UK before the planes had crashed






Had to show people that^^^^




Shortly before 911 some 40 members of the Egyptian military disappeared in a plane off the coast of Florida, I do think 911 was some sort of revenge for this.

I have searched the net for some info on it and found this which I think is interesting
www.freedom4um.com...

taken from the above
Some 40 highly trained officers in the Egyptian military died on this flight, which was clearly sabotaged from outside the cockpit.

The link talks about computers over-riding planes!!

When I googled "egyptian military disappear off the coast of Florida"

This was the first link that came up


www.ariescomputer.com...

For starters, you could tell me how a man who could barely fly a Cessna McGyered his way into the plane's computer, hacked the software to allow that same incompetent pilot to push the aircraft to the edge of its performance envelope, bent the laws of physics so the plane could travel at near ground-level at speeds well exceeding those it is supposedly capable of at that altitude and did so in such a way that it didn't drag its engine nacelles into the turf and flip the thing over before it got within half a kilometer of the Pentagon, and how it magically pulverized into pixie dust so that nothing remains recognizable as an aircraft part in the pictures thus seen yet the damage to the Pentagon is relatively minor and seemingly highly-contained...

And of course you could provide complete, unedited footage from ALL of the dozens of cameras that should have caught all these things on tape from just about every angle...

Which, of course, won't happen.

If 9/11 happened exactly as described in the "official" version footage of the Pentagon hit would have been on the air within minutes. As the DHS likes to tell the people, you have no reason to fear if you have nothing to hide. If they're telling the truth, why do they need to keep so many things secret?

911 Revisited

To completely prove it:

Complete government discloser. All documents, video, and relative evidence released.

An independant investigation into all of this info released.

Bascially, a transparant government with an independant investigation.

**edited to add:

But I lean to neither side. Both have failed to provide enough evidence or strong argument.

[edit on 9-3-2008 by Sublime620]

reply to post by Sublime620


Star for your post, except for this...

But I lean to neither side. Both have failed to provide enough evidence or strong argument.

It is up to the government to prove to us what happened. If you doubt what they have told us, then there is a domestic conspiracy surrounding 9/11. You don't have to sign-on to every wacky CT in the book, but you have to at least consider them.

I myself do not have one entirely complete and detailed theory about 9/11, but there is a theme that runs through all of them. And that is that the our government has lied to us, not to protect us, but to harm us further.

As per your title, proof that it was an accident would do it. Since there is proof that more then one person intentionally planned it out makes it a conspiracy.

Originally posted by Now_Then

con·spir·a·cy (kn-spîr-s) n. pl. con·spir·a·cies
1. An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. Law An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

link
Look at point 3, now we all know more than one person was involved... Ergo it is a conspiracy.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well actually the official story is a conspiracy theory since it is based on a conspiracy (terrorist planning and hijacking planes)

I'm glad not to be the only one who sees this for what it is. It seems far too many ignore the definition of the word conspiracy. What else are they ignoring? To me this shows evidence of believing what is told and not what is seen.

Originally posted by Dmantex
Lets assume for the pupose of this discusion that the September 11th attacks were not a government conspiracy. What would it take to prove it to you?

Irrefutable evidence of all the people involved would do it for me, as long as the evidence does not implicate the US government of course.

www.rawstory.com...

Under Fire! U.S. Army Intelligence Analyst Targeted For Suggesting New Independent 9/11 Investigation.

Army: Doubting Official 9/11 Story Is ‘Disloyal To The United States’

Originally posted by Dmantex
What would prove to you that 9/11 was not a conspiracy?

Well it certainly wouldn't be another damn bin Laden video.

Seriously, like many, sadly I'm well past being convinced that 9/11 wasn't an inside job. For many months I actually tried to convince myself that perhaps truthers were wrong and that Muslim extremists really did hate our freedoms enough to kill nearly 3000 innocent people (instead of targeting the very people who dictate foreign policy?) Not that terrorists and terrorism doesn't exist of course - I did live in Sri Lanka for 12 months where all of the bombings were presumably carried out by the Tamil Tigers (who incidentally are Hindu, not Muslim).

It would be much easier not to have to contemplate the evils of this presumed false flag event and pretend that or 'leaders' really do look out for our best interests.

In a way though I'm glad I stayed with the 'tin-foil hat' wearing brigade as so much information has come to light that I believe I'm actually a better person for it.

It is pretty obvious that we have been lied to for many many years as all one has to do is visit the US patent office (eg the suppression of medical and alternative energy solutions).

As a bonus, the hair I was losing is now growing back (thanks to Dr Robert Beck - and the US patent office). Couldn't be happier notwithstanding the circumstances we all find ourselves in.

ie New WORLD Order....

RIP Bill Cooper, Phil Schneider, Stan Meyer, Dr Robert Beck etc etc

Best wishes to all.....

Originally posted by KMFNWO
Explain this photo...

farm4.static.flickr.com...

The diagram is wrong, the plane hit below on the first floor, where all the damage can be seen. Makes better sense, yeah?

You've been lied to if someone told you that was where the planes hit.

Originally posted by LazyGuy

Here's a picture of the molten metal at that WTC site. In order to change my mind about 9-11 the first thing would be a reasonable explanation of how molten metal was found weeks later at the site. If they can explain it then I'd take a step towards believing the official story.

There are reports of temps around 2800F when they pulled out pieces like in your photo. If I remember correctly, it was done using an infrared gun type thingy.

There were also satelite images of the piles being 1200-1300C.

So there's definitely enough heat the make steel red like that, which takes around......... 900C I think.

There was lots of debris to burn under the piles. More than enough fuel to do the job.