Battle Rifle or Assault Rifle? What do you bring with you?

Originally posted by crgintx
There's has to be a hundred cartridges that can be formed from the -'06 from .22 -405 in caliber.

06 is the year the round entered service (1906.)

Are talking about rounds that were based on the .30-06 (7.62x63) by shortening and necking up/down?

[edit on 5-3-2008 by cavscout]

Originally posted by Tinhatman
Great link!

Yeah, siminov.net is OK, but I dont know about that article. More Chevy vs. Ford argument.

If the following is true then it is the shooter, not the riffle. Locked into a rest there is no way a field grade M1 would be shown up by the best SKS.

I have had a guy try to convince me for twenty minutes that the Garand is far superior to any other rifle and I should go and get one of them. I outshoot him with a “cheap Chinese” SKS consistently

[edit on 5-3-2008 by cavscout]

Nice topic friend!

I'm kinda in the same boat myself, and it's nice to hear some of the feedback from all of the experienced gunners here... so here is my C02.

The SKS is a mighty fine choice, IMHO.

Having owned many of them, prebans and a few para's in all configurations... I wouldn't hesitate to get another. In fact I think I might, running low on guns here. (shoulda never cleaned house)

One thing that surprises me, is that nobody has brought up the MAK-90. Many years back I had a preban 7.62x39 chambered that was great to shoot, decent rate of fire and was a good partner for the SKS for sharing rounds, similar ruggedness of the AK.. could probably submerge in swamp water and still pop off a few rounds. Not sure what the going rate for them is now, and not sure if they will reach out and touch someone like some other models that have been said, still 7.62x39, but it may be worth a look. I shot a few, but never had any intimate knowledge with one... so....
Anyone on here have any firsthands of the MAK-90?

If you really wanted to reach out and touch someone though, and let's toss the cost factor out the window for a second... my choice hands down would be for the H&K Model 91. The HK91 chambered in .308 is dirty lethal at long ranges, and depending on your optics and skill at 500~600m it is like shooting fish in a barrel. We had one for many years, and I loved that gun... recoil was nice... range was fab, and it was scary accurate, and to see someone lugging it around was, well, menacing. However they are not too plentiful these days, and cost shows that.
When I sold it 8 years ago it fetched 1900 and a couple pairs of SKS's and MAK-90's at A GUN SHOW! If you want to dump some bucks, that would be the one. But mind you, it's a beast, and would probably not be something you would want to carry around for an extended period of time since total carry weight with bi-pod, scope/mount, shell deflector... etc and mags is upwards of 20lbs going light.

All of the FAL, Dragunov's or SVD's would be comparable in my opinion as far as accuracy and such, and maybe a little easier on the pocketbook but don't quote me on that though, as I've never had the time alone with one.

However,
I like my No.4 MK 2 enfield .303, it's the biggest outside the .22LRs and .22/250's and various sidearms I've got right now... and frankly it works fine for me. Never had to test it out on soft targets, other than the occasional whistlepig hunting trip, but it fillets like no other.


Sorry to turn this C.02 into C.04
Personally, I would stick with the SKS.. since it is already in your kit, and the $ you could save from negating a purchase on a bigger firearm could be used for other kit. If you are in an urban environment where in (SITX) caliber, accuracy and sheer stopping power is the deciding role for survival, others will most likely be thinking the same. If I was in your shoes, honestly I would spend the added monies elsewhere. If it truly gets that bad, you can flee... and stealth is the key. If you are outgunned, move.. evade and lest I say shoot to kill, hopefully your target is carrying a bigger gun than you, so take it if you so should choose.

Knock wood that it doesn't come to that, so keep your guns ready, gear at hand with an eagle eye, and most of all, keep your powder dry.

Regards,
T-9


[Ed] who is Ed?







[edit on 6-3-2008 by telemetry]

reply to post by cavscout


.30 cal. US Gov't M1906 aka 7.62x63mm. The 7.62 NATO was derived from this round . So were many other by modifying the case. Actually the smallest caliber round derived from the old warhorse that I've heard of is the .172 caliber Remington Mach IV. Almost all US rimless cartridges with .473" case head size are descendant from the .30-'06. This is the same bolt face size as the earlier 7.92mm German Mauser. The US Army created a longer case for a heavier 220 grain bullet but switched after WW1 to the lighter 150 grain standard.

The .30-'06 is one of the most thoroughly experimented cartridges ever. The .400 Whelen is the largest caliber cartridge in the '06 family. The aforementioned .338-'06 is generally considered the optimum caliber balancing ballistic performance, felt recoil and muzzle energy. It will deliver almost 2 tons of muzzle energy pushing very close to the belted magnum cartridges used for African big game. A new round in the family came out last year. Federal Ammunition Company recently released its .338 Federal based on the .308 Winchester, a civilian round derived from the .7.62 NATO. Folks sometimes confuse them. You should never fire .308 Winchester in a rifle rated for the .7.62 NATO unless you want to destroy it, the .308 Win. is a much hotter loading.

Experimenting with a widely available cartridge case was dubbed by gun writers as "wildcatting" a round. Most new cartridges are developed by the amateur developers(wildcatters) and later adopted by major ammunition. companies. The .338 Federal was developed years ago by wildcatters seeking a more potent round for large game at medium range in short-length bolt action rifles. The 6mm PPC cartridge is considered by most shooters to be the most accurate round ever developed for ranges out to 300 yards. Its grandfather is the 7.62x39mm Russian developed in 1943. Contrary to popular belief, the former Soviet Army didn't copy the MP-44 7.92 Kurz round. They decided to create a more suitable semi-auto weapon than the one they'd developed for the 7.62x54 rimmed cartridge prior to WW2. They actually had a weapon that was very similar to the M1 Garand but it was poorly executed in production but amazingly had many features that would be adopted for the AK guns like a removable magazine, select fire and virtually the same sights. Imagine if Nazi war machine had been facing a Soviet Army equipped with AK-'s, Dragunov's and PKM's.

I'm a retired USAF Ammo troop and having been reloading my own ammo since I was 18(now 45+). While active I handled every type of ammo from .177 airgun pellets to nukes. If I had to pick a single round that changed the face of warfare in the last 100 years, it would be the 7.62x39mm Russian. I wished more there were more bolt-action rifles chambered for it. The round is a near perfect combination of medium caliber, light recoil, decent power and good accuracy for distance up to 300 yards. A distance that exceeds the average shooter's ability to hit targets consistently under real world conditions I might add.

reply to post by cavscout


To imply that an M-1 is somehow less then an SKS is silly and not what I read into that article. Every time I go to the range there is some jackass that will smirk or snicker when I pull my Yugo out of my shooting bag. It is a weapon that has been disrespected by many a gun snob who, for some reason, think that country of origin and price tag are the determining qualities of the value of a gun. That part of the article was the writer inflating his ego IMO.

I have shot an M-1 Garand that my grand dad had since before Korea. He bought it after WW2 because he loved the one he carried in N. Africa and Italy so much. I could shoot tighter groups with that rifle than with anything else I ever fired and it was 50 years old and used at least once a week!

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Tinhatman]

You guys most likely know this but for those like me less knowledgeable this may be of interest.

All this talk about what can be made from the 30-06 round, the 30-06 round is based on the 303 British round.

One other thing to remember is ammo availability. The 7.62 and 5.56 shells are more than plentiful on the surplus market. In in the local stores they can be found inexpensively. They are also used by the current administration as well as NATO and about any other military organization. That is also one reason I am supplied with a 9mm over say a 40 cal or 45. If something really monstrous were to happen ammo of this sort will be most plentiful. I will also throw in the 308 into this lot as well. Just something else to think about.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

My main bug out rifle (on order) is an AK-101, which is for lack of better terms a Ak-47 in 5.56.

Now before anyone goes up in arms about the terminal ballistics on the 5.56 vs -insert round here-, I made the sacrifice in stopping power (in which it is still better then 7.62x39) for price, avaliability of the round, and the ease of reloading if nessecery. I almost went with 5.45 which is out performing the 5.56 and 7.62x39 rounds in term ballistics, but all I can get is mil surp, and it is not easy to reload.

I went with AK over an AR style rifle due to reliability, and comfortability.

I can also carry a lot more rounds in lighter ammo then if I was running around with an M1 (just using it as an example since its been brought up several times), And the rifle is much lighter.

I also have a Ruger 10-22, and a Mosin Nagant 91/30 which I plan to take with me. The mosin, which will be my hunting rifle has been lightened by replacing the wood with polymer. Next step in it is getting a turned down bolt, so it is more comfortable slung, and then having it tapped and scoped. I am still half tempted to get a bipod for it for added stability with long range shots, but that is added weight.

If you were to chose any 1 rifle to take with you, and you had a very limited budget, I whole heartedly agree to go with the mosin nagant. I can hit the X ring 9:10 times at 50yrd with the iron sights, and about 6:10 at 100yrds (I know orangetom, I need more practice). I would suggest for weight purposes to get the M44, and put a polymer stock on it. A word of warning though, 7.62x54 has got a bit of a kick to it, so if you shoot a 91/30 and think it hurts after 30 rounds, don't bother with the M44 unless you get a shooters pad.

Mind you, if you have money to blow...go for a H&K G3 battle rifle in 7.62x51NATO...thats just not plausable for me.

Hope this ramble made some sense.

-Drop

reply to post by quantum wind


That's a big negative, QW. The older 30-40 Krag was closer to the .303 SMLE round than any other US military round. -'06 is basically the 7.92mm Mauser case stretched by 6mm or nearly .25 inch.

The .303 British is a rimmed cartridge as is the .30-40 Krag. The -'06 is a rimless cartridge. The US Army discovered that machine guns didn't particular like the sever taper of the rimmed .30-40 Krag and switched to the rimless design in 1903. Problems with older Krag-Jorgensen rifles lead to the Army switching from the Jorgensen to 1903 Springfield which was a modified Mauser design. They even paid Mauser a fee for each gun they produced up until WW1. Performance wise all 4 major rounds of WW1 were nearly identical. (303 Brit, -'06, 7.92 Mauser and 7.62x54mm Russian) Only the Russian is still serving as frontline military cartridge.

reply to post by crgintx


Tinhatman, if you’re still shopping around take a serious into a Vepr II in .308 from robarm.com

Here’s their price list;

www.robarm.com...

For the money you simply can’t beat it.

It’s not the standard stamped AK like the Saiga and other AK copies, Vepr is based on the RPK MG, and everything about it is much beefier then the standard AK.

Incredibly accurate right out of the box, AK reliability, and Super Veprs have been known to outshoot Chinese SVDs.

It’s a solid hunting/battle rifle with the best bang for the buck.

For the deadliest fragmentation around load it with the German 7.62x51 with a pre-weakened jacket, for AP load your own.

You simply can’t go wrong, because Vepr will cycle all kinds of crazy loads from the same mag even of the round weight varies drastically.

Load what ever you want, in what ever order, Vepr WILL shot with AKs reliability.

Standard Vepr is a solid hunting rifle, bt its accuracy is not a match to military battle rifles, it's good out to about 150m. Vepr Pioneer has a shorter stock and it's available in 7.62x39 too, it would make a ideal survival rifle for a smaller person/children.

Vepr Super on the other hand seem to be a really good rifle able to drive nails out at 300+m ranges... several people i know are curretly turning Vepr Supers in to semiautomatic Sniper support/spotter rifles.

reply to post by iskander


Thansk for the link. I will check them out!

You are a fan of Russian hardware based on your liking of the SKS. Get a mosin nagant m44. They are 100$, more accurate, and much harder hitting than the SKS. You can expect to shoot 2" groups at 100yards, with open sights.(handloads). You can mount a scope on it with a couple of mods.

They are stone reliable, and dang accurate. Surplus ammo is as cheap as you will find. It kicks pretty good with the 186 gr. ammo. I have had better luck with 150 grain bullets.

You are looking at battle rifle power and accuracy dirt cheap.

I have been watching this thread for a few days now while thinking about the foumulation of my post.

From page 1 of this thread Cav Scout makes excellent points but I would like to point out a concept that seems to be missing from most of the posts here.

There seems to be a presumption that as males you will be surviving alone..not with family or children...or even the elderly.

I do not believe that for most of us this will be true. We will be stuck with these people.

The SKS rifle is a tool that can be more easily used by females or those males of smaller stature. To me this is one of its great appeals. I say this in light of the SKS verses say...a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun or even a full battle rifle.
At times we will have to venture out alone, leaving the women and children to themselves. Most will not be able to handle a full battle rifle much less the ammo.

This in no way disparages the potency of the shotgun or battle rifle.

I have myself done some comparisons fo the performance of these rifles by shooting them into sandbags.

What I learned was the potency of the full power 30.06 cartridge pushing a 168 grain boat tailed Serria. Huge difference in the penetration ability of this bullet verses the 123grain SKS Soft point. The 168 Grain Boat tailed Serria went through the sideways sand bag but left the jacket on the ground outside the bag. I was not able to locate the core among all the other debris on the backstop.

The SKS left several mushroomed lead tips spread out in the middle of the peeled back copper jackets. Very nice mushroom on the spire points...left in the middle of the sandbag. I cut the sandbag with my pocket knife to get out these mushroomed bullets.

Both of these tests were at the 100+ yard range and against the backstop mound.

No question about the battle rifles ability. What I used in the battle rifle category was my 1903 Springfield though I also have a M1 Garand in the same chambering.

Nonetheless the SKS in my opinion is a rifle which ban be used by those of smaller stataure without suffering the recoil of a full battle rifle....or shotgun. No question in my mind either about the potency of the shotgun up close..at pistol ranges. But the recoil on people of small stature would be significant.

The other factor of significance is cost. The SKS can be had for very reasonable prices compared to the HK91, FAL , M1As and others. The other factor is that ammunition is fairly inexpensive...for now..as compared to .308 or 30.06, or .338 Lapua.

Someone on another thread suggested with the SKS rifle that a reloaded .308 round with the 150 grain Spire Point bullet woudl be more desirable for hunting of deer than the 123 grain soft point. I would agree with this opinion after witnessing the penetration ability of the lighter bullet. However..I would be reluctant to try a 150 grain bullet in this chambering at a distance of over 100 yards.

For hunting I was thinking to myself that a bolt action in this chambering 7.62x39mm would be nice...with the right bullet of course.

Some food for thought here.
Thanks,
Orangetom

Greetings, DropinaBucket.

I am new to the ATS community, but have been rather addicted to this site since i have recently found it.

I highly agree with you regarding the Mosin Nagant and Ruger 10/22 rifles. The Ruger and my M44 are both real work horses and I feel very comfortable with their reliability. Alot of the surplus ammo for the m44 can pack quite a punch, especially the yellow tip 182 gr heavy ball. While i may not have a TON to spend on weaponry and ammo, the deliver quite a bang for the buck you could say.

The 550 round value packs for the .22lr are so small in storage space, you really can hold alot in a small backpack or bag.

The M44 I have considered the weaver mount scope systems for it, adding optics could add alot of good range to it, if you were unseen. The M44 is a very accurate carbine.


For my sidearm i prefer the Springfield XD .45 Tactical. with the Trijicon night sights. I like the stopping power of the .45 round as opposed to the 9mm, despite the fact it is much less common to find. I feel id be able to take the weapons and ammo from a corpse long before I would extinguish all the ammo in my battle pack.


ThePiece

What rifle you choose isn't as important as the time and training you have using it, Knowing your rifle like you know yourself, Knows its advantages and its disadvantages to the point that nothing it does will ever surprise you, We can argue about effectiveness of each caliber all day long, but thats not what kills people, what kills people is the man pulling the trigger, bullets down range on target are what count, If you can't shoot and know your weapon with extreme intimacy then its useless, A man with a 308 and little training with it will not regardless of what he thinks, be able to put consistent and accurate shots on target.

I never have and hopefully never will have to pull the trigger on another human being, My rifle of choice at the moment is a 5.56x45mm Galil AR, I know without a shadow of a doubt, That I can put Consistent, Accurate, and multiple shots on target every single time, I own weapons in 7.62x39, 7.62x54r ect, They are great weapons, but In semi automatic, putting 2-3 rounds in the same spot consistently in a mere second is difficult, those seconds could be the difference between you killing them or them killing you,
Again, training with the weapon can improve such things, I've owned them and shot them much more and much longer then i have my 5.56 weapons, They simply aren't to my liking as far as a weapon I trust my life with under extreme conditions, These weapons for others may be a match made in heaven, It just depends on the shooter, But remember training and intimate knowledge of your weapon is the most important factor here.

We must also take into account that in a situation x or SHTF scenario stateside, We wont at least not for the most part be dealing with religious fanatics, or people accustomed to extreme violence and a constant state of fighting, Most people will scramble at the sight of a gun in this type of situation, the sound of the gun being fired at them will have most in the next county before you get off your second shot... assuming you hit them and aren't frozen up yourself form shock of whats actually going on, chances are even if it doesn't kill them, they are going to run away, I'll say it again we aren't going to be dealing with religious fanatics with a sole purpose of killing you even at the risk of their own lives, these will be people just like you and I, and in this country, even the craziest of hard asses value their lives, And many if not most of the people one would be dealing with in a SHTF scenario haven't seen or touched a real gun ever, and they most certainly wont have IIIA body armor with rifle plates, let alone any at all...

Seriously people most Police don't have that crap, If we are at the point we are worrying about penetrating body armor, then we have more urgent issues to worry about such as attack helo's, thermal imaging, and guided missiles....

I mean at that point your playing a whole different game, I'm talking about the most likely and potential event here...

Dealing with Joe Schmoe I'd imagine a 22lr would make em scramble.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by C0le]

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I would like to point out a concept that seems to be missing from most of the posts here.

There seems to be a presumption that as males you will be surviving alone..not with family or children...or even the elderly.

I do not believe that for most of us this will be true. We will be stuck with these people.

The SKS rifle is a tool that can be more easily used by females or those males of smaller stature. To me this is one of its great appeals. I say this in light of the SKS verses say...a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun or even a full battle rifle.
At times we will have to venture out alone, leaving the women and children to themselves. Most will not be able to handle a full battle rifle much less the ammo.

This in no way disparages the potency of the shotgun or battle rifle.

This is something I believe the majority of like minded folks seem to not really forget, but conveinetly ignor, I'd say most have the presumption that they will grab there bob, Their weapon and move out, And try to imagine the family, friends, dog... don't exist..

It's easier that way, no burden on your shoulder, but the reality is that those people will be with you through it all, chances are if theres a firefight, you wont have a seal team beside you giving you covering fire, you'll have your mom, sister, brother, friend ect.. there

If it gets SHTF bad it will suck, because those of us who do think of these situations do have this burden on us, and for the most part, we are few and our families "tolerate" us and don't share the same cautious and prepared attitude, so when and if a large scale SHTF erupts we will essentially have to look out for everyone else.... you can hand em rifles all day long, but you'll still essentially be a one man army... and one man armies die, along with those untrained bodies that have guns in their hands and don't know how to operate them...

SHTF wont be some glorified HERO day, it'll suck and suck a lot, Most wont be the kids in Red Dawn who save the day, They will be all the other ones we didn't get to see die...

This seems like a good thread to ask: Does the 308 round really lose that much of its power when you have a 16 inch barrel?

I was thinking about getting an M1A with a 16 inch barrel for my next gun purchase, but I've read that it's not long enough. I want compact guns that I can carry easily though.

Advice, anyone?

reply to post by TheRedneck


I agree with the bow and knife idea. A good bow, be it a compound recurve, or crossbow with some razor sharp broadheads can be very accuracte in the right hands and extremely lethal. Some crossbows while slow to reload, are up to 250 Lbs draw weight, a bolt/quarrel from one of those is much more powerful that a rifle round seeing as how it is a ton heavier. I would rather get shot with a bullet than an a broadheaded arrow.

Sounds like what you're looking for is accuracy at range.

Here are the considerations:

1) Mass of the bullet. A larger, heavier bullet is deflected less by wind and other factors.

2) Ballistic coefficient. A higher BC means that less energy is wasted on the way to target.

3) Muzzle energy. The more foot-pounds it starts with, the more it ends with.

4) Accuracy. A good custom barrel will put the bullet in the same place more of the time.


So, here are my opinions on the following rounds:


.223 - Can be extremely accurate. Can hit targets at 6, 7, 800 yards with good scope and rifle. Practice and handload. AR-15 platform can reach 1/2 minute of arc accuracy, and has the advantage of semi-auto operation. Keep it clean. At ranges greater than 500 yards, does not retain enough energy to penetrate standard military helmets.

.243 - Great accuracy, great range, and good energy. Not a military round, however.

.270 - Bridges gap to .308

.308 or .30-06 - Very accurate as well. Must accept a fair amount of recoil. Good to 1000 yards. The .308 enjoys the advantage of being a military round. Can be acquired from many places.

.300 Magnums - Accurate, but a lot of recoil. Will reach targets with considerable downrange energy to 1200 yards or so.

.338 - Better have a muzzle brake, this thing kicks. 1500 yard range.

.416/408 - Hard to obtain and expensive. Ammo very pricey. But extremely powerful and tremendously accurate.

.50 BMG - Big-time hard-hitter. Perhaps not terribly accurate, but still good. Can reach 1800 yards.



Don't forget, practice at these ranges is more important than anything you read in a book. Hitting targets accurately at this range requires tremendous calm, patience, and precision. You also much take into account many factors to get a reliable first hit. Beyond 500 yards, you will probably miss your first shot. Handloading your own ammunition will help you to have reliable results. Gather and test ballistic information and information on sighting scopes at long ranges.


My personal preferences are thus:

9mm Auto as a sidearm
sharp knife
AK platform in .308

My girlfriend literally sleeps with the .357 under her pillow.

My AK is at arm's reach. Always.


I might be putting too much emphasis on this. But then again, I want to give them hell if bad guys ever bust through my door.

If more of us did the same thing, they might find it harder to get recruits to do their dirty work.

I am a law-abiding American. I've never harmed, nor do I have intention to harm, any living human being. I contribute to my community. I follow the law to the fullest extent possible. I love. I laugh. I cry. I pay my taxes (then I cry a lot).

The reason I am armed is for defense. Not offense.

Because....


WHEN SECONDS COUNT, THE POLICE ARE JUST MINUTES AWAY...





[edit on 14-4-2008 by ianr5741]