Battle Rifle or Assault Rifle? What do you bring with you?

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posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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I am having an inner debate over whether my 7.62 Combloc (it's an unmodified SKS) is going to be sufficient in a Sit-x situation. I have taken great pains in this maintaining and restoring this rifle. It is a shooter. If something or someone is within 250 yds I will hit it and I have never had a misfire or jam in over 1000 rds. So please do not knock my Yugo SKS.


The SKS is my bugout gun currently and I am considering opting for something of a heavier round. I have been considering the Standard M1A as the alternative. Realistically in Sit-x I would expect to encounter roving bands of thugs and looters as a primary danger (depending of course on Sit-x) and I felt for awhile that the SKS would be adequate but as I look around my area (Orlando FL) it really makes me nervous that there are huge swaths of paved straight roads with buildings all set deep back from the sidewalks, lots of 6 and 8 lane roads, etc etc. I am beginning to worry that a range of 250 yds is going to be wildly inefficient. I would rather drop a looter or two at 350 yds instead of them getting close enough that a round fired from their .223 or their own 7.62 x 39 or even a wildly fired hand gun round might reach me. Or, I would rather clear a road to cross 300 yards in either direction before crossing. You all get the point though.

I have been shooting a long time, ex-military, left handed so bolt actions are a no-go for emergency use, I can hit medium size (read torso) targets with a Remington model 699 up to 400yds 5 out of 9 times so I am fairly confident in my ability to shoot.

I value all opinions and insight. Your own personal experiences etc. Please share! I am pretty sure my mind is made up but maybe someone will save me $1200


Plus it seem slike a damn fine topic that a lot of these newcomers and old timers may learn from. Thanks!

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Tinhatman]




posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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SKS is a really nice weapon, I had one a long time ago myself.
The range isnt the greatest but it is very accurate but I have to
question why you would want to shoot a looter thats over 300 yrds away?
Assuming your sitting outside your home and he is around 1000 feet away then he isnt looting you and your life isnt in danger and you would be committing murder..



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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You didn't specify your intended use, so I'm assuming it's for survival.

Myself, I'd be happy with my tried-and-true .357 S&W. It's stainless (Mod 66), so no worry about rust, and it will take either .357 or .38 ammo, both readily available commercially.

More than that, a good hunting knife and a bow. Bows are better for hunting and stealth, since they are essentially silent and arrows can be reused (and even created out of sticks if absolutely necessary).

A rifle is very handy in a sniper situation, but if it comes to violence, it's not that hard to get a good rifle off a poor guy who just happened to find out his throat was cut (don't you just hate when that happens?). And chances are, there will be plenty of ammo available at an ammo dump for such a firearm, regardless of which country's army it is from.

Save your $1200. Get a bow, a good knife, and some rope and matches.


TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 10:56 AM
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The SKS is a great rifle as I own one also.. It will take down what you need it to and the ammo is easy to find as it is mass manufactured.
The SKS is rugged and reliable and easy to clean.

For a second rifle pick up a good .22 rifle that will shoot short or long round as both are great for small game and .22 rounds are cheap.

The SKS will be plenty of fire power unless you plan on doing 300+yds shots at game or people. Just use common sense , its paid for it shoots a common round and it can kill a deer/wild game. What else would you need in a rifle? If you dont have a 20 or 30rd clip and decide to keep the stock mag then just make sure to keep extra ammo on hand at the ready.

Pick up some speed loaders/clips.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Nailer]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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Mass reply.

Kronos,
Longer range may be required while bugging out, clearing groups from a direction of travel prior to getting in range of their weapons to avoid engaging directly. Sitiign outside my home the SKS is great. I am thinking if I have to move.

TheRedneck,
I carry already a 1911 .45 ACP as my sidearm, plus 2 additional mags. I also carry a Charter Arms Undercover .38 as my stand-off gun. Pistols are taken care of.

Nailer,
Have a ruger 10/22 already broken down in my bug-out bag. I expect to be doing more trapping than shooting of small game if it came to that. Otherwise I wasted 6 years perfecting how to make traps. I use the 10rd stripper clips for the SKS currently. I do not have to worry about performance like some folks who use the hi-caps. Though I hear Tapco is making some nice ones. I actually have one of those Chinese chest rigs for the ammo.

I'd hate to be in a position to close with someone who means to do me harm just because my rifle has such a serious velocity drop over 250yds.

Survival is the key.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by Tinhatman]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 11:54 AM
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The SKS is a good rifle, and I'd feel perfectly comfortable using it in the majority of situations. It has a good rate of fire, can be reloaded with stripper clips as quickly as by mag with some practice, and is accurate up to about 150-200 yds. Beyond that range I couldn't hit anything anyhow with my eyes. It'll definitely do it's part if you do yours.

For shots beyond the 200 yd range, maybe a Mosin Nagant 91/30 would serve you well, and can be had for under $70 just about anywhere. It uses an uncommon round and it's heavy, but we're talking about sniping not sustained fire.

It is bolt action, but I'm a lefty too, and it poses no real problems for me , but I tend to be ambidextrous in that regard. $1200 is a lot of money for one gun, but hey, to each his own. Personally I'd buy a Mosin and a couple of crates of ammo, and put the rest in other needed provisions. Good thread Tinhat.

[edit on 3/4/08 by LLoyd45]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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I had an sks years ago when I was young. It was a fine weapon. The un metered gas system and other common variations of the same sks platform ensure you can get parts, and most are close enough to file and fit. If you intend to pass it down to your kids, it will last. In the standard 10rnd form it shouldn't be a problem for the law in most places.

I hunted deer with one back then and it didn't let me down but is rather heavy to pack around. The first thing I did was cut away all the crap at the end of the barrel with a angle grinder and get it smooth and functional to hunt with. If you go in the brush it will hang up on just about every branch and that's no good when you get one season and one tag. Too much noise. I suppose if I still had it I would run a big drill bit in the end of the stock and inside the stock hollow it out some to cut the weight a bit more. I would just keep it. Its fine.

If your worried about sitx, you don't need guns as much as staying out of sight and staying off the roads. Course no one knows if that will ever come and it may not.



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 12:44 PM
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Want to hear the opinion of someone who has shot real live people with both the 5.56(.223) and 7.62x51(.308) and seen several people shot with the 7.62x39?

Get a damn battle riffle! Your Yugo is great fun, a fine, solid built riffle (I love mine) but total inadequate.

While common modern body armor w/sapi plates will stop even the 30-06 of a Garand, large rounds like the 7.62x51 and 30-06 will still DESTROY a person under the vest. Sure, with medical treatment they should live, however they will have at least a bruise the size of a grapefruit and probably some broken ribs to deal with. Multiple shots are also likely to defeat a ceramic sapi plate if fired from a large caliber battle riffle.

7.62x39 and 5.56, however, will do little to the person behind the vest, even at very close range, unless getting them to crap in their pants was your goal.

5.56 is especially worthless even without body armor. It requires about a foot of soft fleshy material before it begins to fragment and cause multiple wound channels. In sit. X people are likely to be skinny enough that it will pass through even a torso without causing much initial damage. I have seen malnurished individuals take several rounds from an m-4 before they stoped shooting.

7.62x39 is a bit better on un armored persons as it begins its upward tumble action at around 3-4 centimeters, causing a significant wound channel at close range.

One other thing to consider, however, is energy delivered. Most experts agree that you need about 1000 lbs. to drop either a human or a deer consistently. Up to 100 yards, the 7.62 does the job well enough, past that it fails in power. By 200 yards the energy delivered to the target will be around 850 to 900, not enough. So even though you can hit the target at 200 yards because trajectory at that range from a yugo should be less than a 6 inch drop, the energy you are delivering falls short of what is needed.

That 7.62x51, however, maintains that 1000 lbs way out to 700 yards or so and has the accuracy to get it there!


Hands down, GET A BATTLE RIFFLE!

And you dont have to spend over a grand, either. Look into Cetme and FAL


Oh, and to the person who recommended a pistol, anyone who has ever been in a gun fight will tell you that a pistol should only serve one function: to fight your way back to your riffle, which you should never have set down in the first place.

Bringing a pistol to a gun fight is like bringing a knife to a sword fight.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by cavscout
 


FAL's make me nervous as all get out because you have no idea who rebuilt it. Unless of course someone is building factory semi-auto FAL's that I have not seen yet. All the one's I have seen have been rebuilds of the full auto's.

I would never intentionally arm myself with a .223. I shot at people with one and could not penetrate what I woudl deem "soft" cover. Completely inadequate as a combat round in my opinion.

I will check out the CETME



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by Tinhatman
I will check out the CETME


If the quality of second hand weapons is a concern of yours, skip over the cetme as well.

I just thought someone would be interested in less expensive 7.62N BRs

If you are prepared to shell out over a grand anyway, the M1a is the way to go. I prefer it for its adjustable rear sites as I don’t like optics on these weapons. Red dot sites and acogs are great on the assault riffles, but for that reach out and touch someone capability of the BRs you need a scope, and I see no reason to scope an semi auto weapon when I will always have a sniper nearby; my wife prefers the bolt action scoped riffles.




[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by cavscout
 



I have a 303 british that will tear up body armor and a couple other nice weapons. Not everybody will be wearing body armor and I dont think the face shields and helmets issued will stop a 7.62X39 round.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Nailer]



Excessive Quoting – Please Review This Link


[edit on 5-3-2008 by Jbird]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:06 PM
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Actually I love 2nd hand weapons. In fact nothing thrills me more than cleaning cosmoline of an old piece of milsurp.
The FAL's are brought into the country without the receiver and if the person who installs the "kit" does so incorrectly it can lead to some serious damage to the weapon and the user. I have not looked into these rifles in years though, so things may have changed. Someone may be making a readily available semi-auto.

Dependability happens to be more important than knockdown power to me. I would rather have a rifle that I know I have to shoot a guy with 3 or 4 times but that will always without fail fire the 3-4 shots than a rifle that needs one shot but that might not fire at all.

The FAL's are a great weapon. I question the professionalism of the gunsmiths. They may have some kid at the local importer/gun shop/whatever in the back putting all those FAL's together and I may end up with one of the 1s two or three that he handled.


I f I oculd get an FAL that I trust off the rack or even haveto adjust slightly myself I would. "The Right Arm of the Free World" is how you spell FAL.



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:18 PM
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reply to post by LLoyd45
 


The Mosin is a good rifle and dirt cheap. Crossing my face to operate the bolt is a HUGE turn off for me. I actually have one I bought prior to going on a hunting trip. Never fired at an animal. I think sport hunting is inhumane. I have hunted in the past but always veiwed it more as necessary training. Though being outside and smelling that primer is sure a plus.



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Nailer
I have a 303 british that will tear up body armor and a couple other nice weapons. Not everybody will be wearing body armor and I dont think the face shields and helmets issued will stop a 7.62X39 round.
[edit on 4-3-2008 by Nailer]


Sorry, not trying to argue, but it is a fact that your .303 will not defeat modern NATO spec SAPI plates.

You are right about the Kevlar helmets, though. A Kevlar is designed to stop pistol bullets and shrapnel, and it does a WONDERFUL job of that. most riffle rounds will go all the way through both sides, however.

The things is, even the best shot in the world cannot reliably hit a man in the head or face at distance. The common riffles chambered for 7.62x39 simply are not accurate enough for reliable 200 meter head shots, so that doesn’t really matter. Remember, even military snipers usually go for a center of mass shot. Head shots at any distance with any firearm are tricky buisiness

I also don’t think that a 7.62x39 would penetrate a Kevlar helmet 200 meters. 75 meters I know it will, 200 meters no way. Like I said, 850 lb is just not enough.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Tinhatman
 



Check out the DSAs. Great quality, but you are gonna pay more than your average M1a.

Like I said, dollar for dollar I prefer the M1a

BTW, dont forget that you have already satisfied the first run of gun fighting: have a gun. You are already better off than many.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:41 PM
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"While that bastard is aiming for your head and missing, aim for his center of mass and kill him. Than check to see if he has anything good in his pockets"

Wisdom form a WW2 vet I used to work with. Also..

"If your bayonet gets stuck in his rib cage just fire off a few rounds and it'll pop right out."

I never asked why he was using his bayonet if he still had ammo left...



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by Nailer
 


The box o' truth has something to say about .303s that you may find interesting.

While a great anti-personel round, most common mil-surp ammo for the 303 was made with aluminim or wood tips. They flaten on armor.

www.theboxotruth.com...



[edit on 4-3-2008 by cavscout]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by cavscout
 


Dsa's are too expensive IMO. The M1A is a helluva rifle. Was also looking at the scout squad version but I guess it will all depend on what I find at the gunshow and how easlily a gran slips from my hands. Last time I tried to spend so much on one item I got the sweats and chickened out. Due to my inability to make myself spend so much I may be using the SKS. Not due to lack of funs. I just hate to spend.

And to a reply above. If you can see a looter heading your way from 1000 feet away it's better to stop them then. Also the BR has a greater ability in the field of Anti-Material. A couple of .308's to the engine compartment makes a car sick real fast. At least it ruins the crap out of a green 4 dr Yugo, I know that for sure


[edit on 4-3-2008 by Tinhatman]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 08:56 PM
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The sks, like many have said is an excellent sitX rifle. Possibly the most available and least expensive centerfire ammo on a long term basis. 7.62X39mm, rimless bottleneck, 123 grain .31 caliber bullet at about 2400fps. It feels lighter than actual weight of eight pounds or slightly less. Short "Paratrooper" versions of the SKS is hard to find, but they are out there. The SKS can do a little bit of everything, and if you can only have one rifle it might be the best choice. It's greatest weak point is probably the range limit of the 7.62X39mm cartridge, if this is an issue in your geological location.

I wouldn't rule out the K31 Schmidt-Rubin, Straight pull, six-shot detachable magazine or stripper clip fed rifle maybe a great choice for you. Same weight as sks but DEADLY, DEADLY accurate. The 7.5 Swiss, rimless bottle neck is rather expensive. Power equal to the 7.62X51mm NATO. Straight pull action gives this rifle a high rate of fire, kind of a "twilight zone" between bolt action rifles and semi-automatics. Can be fed both with stripper clips from the top of the action, or by switching magazines. Inexpensive, powerful, very accurate with a higher rate of fire than a turn-bolt, the k31 rifle carries better than a Mauser or SMLE imo.

If you have $1200 to spend, then i would go with the good-ole M1 Garand. Best sitX rifle imo. No other U.S. issued Semi Auto or Selective fire MBR has seen every weather condition on such a large scale as the M1. It has a Low parts count. While a low parts count alone does not make something more reliable, it does have a major benefit in regards to Murphy's Law. The only MBR that has fewer parts than the M1's 62 total is the M14's 61 total. The FAL has 143, the AR has 119, the HK91 has 92.

It is hard to beat an M1 when it comes to combat range & accuracy. The excellent sights coupled with a long sight radius and excellent trigger really add to the combat accuracy. The 30-06 cartridge lethality stretches past the 7.62X51 a solid 100-150 yards.

The 8rd enbloc clip is always a been a reason for people to bash the M1. That bashing is really unjustified, especially in a homeland defense sense. Why? In any semi-auto firearm that uses a detachable magazine, the source of most feeding problems stems from the magazine itself. The M1 clip can be reused indefinately whereas detachable mags wear out and need springs replaced and mag lips recontoured.

For the cost of a high end clone FAL or M1A you can buy 3 service grade M1s or 5 rack Grade M1s from the CMP CIVILIAN MARKSMANSHIP PROGRAM . Are they perfect? of course not, but they are ready for action with some cleaning and they are not clones. If you bought 5 rack grades and picked the best three and sold two for $400-450.00ea that is alot of ammo and spare parts.

There are CMP M1 clinics all over the country and they supply the rifle and ammo FREE. My idea of possible conflicts involve 400+ yard harassment and scout/DM situations and the M1 fits that role well. While I love the M-1A I just can't justify the cost (unless I find one below market). Also if you have to have a .308, you can rebarrel an M1 and still be well under the cost of a DSA FAL or SA M1-A.




[edit on 4-3-2008 by METACOMET]



posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 10:00 PM
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For rifles, I've got a Bushmaster M4, a Romanian AK-47 and 7 or 8 SKS'. I've several hunting rifles as well, around 100 guns total including handguns and shotguns. I just need some land now and I can outfit a small militia consisting of my friends and family.





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