Wicca, gentle nature lovers or a wolf in sheeps clothing?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by enchantress62
All I can tell you, is that in my opinion, BELIEF requires no defence.

Oooh! Can I use that one? For some reason people don't buy this when you're Christian. I wonder why that is.

Well if you'll endulge me for a moment I'm really curious. I see the battles on here between Christians and Atheists. I see the insults being cast, the constant bantering and twisting of words, but I wonder when does the endless chatter stop? When does the 2 groups involved take a step back and move to the side so they can look at the other from a different perspective? See to me, rather you come from a place of offense or deffense you have a battle in mind. Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect and get deffensive a lot when I feel attacked, but it seems to me that if we would all just shut up for a mintue and give the other guy a chance to talk, put aside our beliefs for a time and really listen and try to understand where that guy is coming from, then we might just find out that we'll learn something wonderful. If nothing else we might learn tollerance.

I wanted to make mention about the thread title. It seems unfair in my assessment. It assumes one or the other...to which I cannot say quantitatively Wiccans are in fact one or the other. For example, if I were to say "all Wiccans are gentle nature lovers" this would be incorrect. If I were to say "all Wiccans are wolves in sheeps clothing" this would be equally incorrect. If I were to say "some Wiccans are gentle nature lovers and the rest are wolves in sheep's clothing" I'm still wrong. To ask the reader to pick a stereotype only demonstrates that the reader believes in stereotyping. I hope all of us are beyond this binary thinking when it comes to labelling people. In fact, I only believe in a label if we attribute it to ourselves. Further, to make a judgement about another person is against Christian principles.

Originally posted by enchantress62
Well if you'll endulge me for a moment I'm really curious. I see the battles on here between Christians and Atheists. I see the insults being cast, the constant bantering and twisting of words, but I wonder when does the endless chatter stop?

It doesn't. But the assumption is that the 'chatter' is useless. I'm not a person who believes talk is without progress. It may not be as life changing as an automobile accident, but it is not without effect.

Originally posted by enchantress62
When does the 2 groups involved take a step back and move to the side so they can look at the other from a different perspective?

I agree they absolutely should. I've come from a perspective that was formerly Aggressively Agnostic (Athiest in a lot of ways) to one that is Christian so it's not as challenging for me as from those who have solely been one or the other (by the way, no one is born Christian). There are many times where I have to remind fellow believers where they came from and how ineffective finger-wagging can be since it would not have helped them in the past either.

Originally posted by enchantress62
See to me, rather you come from a place of offense or deffense you have a battle in mind.

A wrong approach, definately.

Originally posted by enchantress62
Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect and get deffensive a lot when I feel attacked, but it seems to me that if we would all just shut up for a mintue and give the other guy a chance to talk,

Preaching to the choir...but the nice thing about a forum is you 'have the floor' for as long as you want in your post. No interruptions. This is why I'm not live-chatting because I know I cannot be stopped from speaking, though according to my significant other, I am guilty of doing so myself from time to time.

Originally posted by enchantress62
put aside our beliefs for a time

We cannot put aside that which is integral to our being, though we can understand what it is and place ourselves in the shoes of others. This is like asking someone to forget something. You cannot make them forget, only ask that they forgive it and let you move on as a new person.

Originally posted by enchantress62
and really listen and try to understand where that guy is coming from, then we might just find out that we'll learn something wonderful. If nothing else we might learn tollerance.

Agreed, though many will flag "intolerance!" whenever someone disagrees. This is ridiculous as I see it. We should be allowed to respectfully disagree. How many arguements do I have with my Wiccan friends? The answer is none...but we disagree often

[edit on 29-2-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


I know nothing about Atheism except that it's based on the belief that there is no God. That belief is a mystery to me, I don't understand it, but because I don't understand it I can't dispute it. Their belief that is. I can find evidence to support the theory that there is a God, but they can also find evidence to support the theory that there isn't. We human's are working with the unknown at this time in our evolution, so the best we can do is go inside ourselves and figure out what's right for us, as individuals. What's happening with the other guy, in his struggles with this, is really none of our business. However, what you said about our discussions with each other, even the conflicts, having value is something worth committing to memory. How careless of me to assume they wouldn't.

Atheism is actually was a pretty easy belief for me. The rule was:

If I see it, I believe it.

The trouble with the above rule is that based upon it, all that we were taught by our parents, teachers and professors is therefore invalid until it occurs to us. This leads to a lot of error on our part and missing of conventional wisdom.

The extention of the rule is: If I cannot see God, then God does not exist.

There are several other motivational factors in deciding on Atheism, not limited to but included are: Hope/faith in humanity, hope/faith in oneself, angry over a previous incident that occurred regarding religion, hope/faith in science alone (which is ironic since a lot the scientists in my office do believe in God), angry at something they feel God did (death of a family member for example), hopeless in everything beyond self, fear of being exposed/assessed by a Creator.

Believing God came to earth, died for our sins, was raised from the dead, and now gives eternal life to those who accept him? "...This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" (John 6:60)

reply to post by woodwytch


OMG! Thank you so much, I've been looking but I'm not that computer savy and it seems like everything I look up, regarding Witches, leads back to the history, only not much at all covers the reason we have this image. It's just interesting to me how we lable each other and then begin to judge. What's up with that?

Someone told me recently that the image of the old hag came from the Salem witch trials. This person said that was what those ppl were afraid of and that's who they were hanging, the excentric little ppl who lived in the woods and were healers of the community. I don't know but would love to have more information.

reply to post by enchantress62

Hi there enchantress62.
This is a lovely thread ... why do I say that ? Because there is mutual conversation going on between Christians and Witches. What a totally refreshing senario. What makes it so special is that neither faith is being compromised ... it's a genuine sharing of information and respect for each other ... wouldn't it be great if this could happen on a global scale ?

Ok, sorry to drift just thought it should be acknowledged (I hope some ignoramous hasn't upset that equalibrium by the time I've finished this post.

I've read through the posts so far and see that you still haven't had any detailed replies to your original question;

Blach Hat ... Broom Flying ... Wart On Nose (why are they common images linked to witches)?

Black (conical) Hats; During the latter half of the 17th century tall hat's were fashionable and worn by men and women. The Welch National Dress still has this type of hat.



Because this is also when the 'Witch-Hunts' reached fever-pitch under the rule of King James I, this image seems to be the one that stuck as the sterotype.

Broom Flying; (Quote from my book, 'The Cornish Burning').

'Back in the day, recipes for 'Flying Ointment' were handed down from one generation of witches to the next. This infamous balm from the realms of folklore, is responsible for the myth of witches flying on broomsticks. The reason for this comes from the fact that many of the herbal ingredients included have hallucinogenic properties.

A chosen selection of suitable plants would have been prepared and mixed with hog-fat ... this meant it could be easily applied to the skin. If a Sabbat Ritual was to be performed 'sky-clad', the hog-fat would protect against the elements - in the same way that 'Channel Swimmers' used goose-grease to protect their skin in the water. Using such a medium meant that the hallucinogens could still penetrate the skin through the pores. The resulting effect was a sensation of flying.

Some years ago a group of college professors took part in an experiment - under strict laboratory conditions - to test the effects of several recipes for 'flying ointment', found in old Grimoires.

Interestingly, they all appeared to lapse into deep, trance-like states ... that lasted for at least 24hrs. When the effects eventually wore-off they all, independently reported sensations of floating or flying. Furthermore, they were all convinced they'd only been 'under the influence' for an hour or so ... and all this from a thin application of the ointment on their forearms !

Whilst this explains how Witches were able to 'fly' ... you'll have to use your imagination as to the purpose of the broomstick between their legs ... all I will say, is that it has something to do with 'raising the energy' ready for ritual.

Finally, 'wart's on the nose' ... well to be honest I'm not totally sure about this one, but logical thinking tells me that it's a representation of 'The Crone' ... who of course is symbollic of the wisdom of age (and experience) ... a real 'wise-woman'.

Hope this is useful. Woody

reply to post by enchantress62


OK missy ... how did you manage to post a reply to my post, before I actually posted it ???

You must teach me that sometime.

Woody

From June through September of 1692, nineteen men and women, all having been convicted of witchcraft, were carted to Gallows Hill, a barren slope near Salem Village, for hanging. Another man of over eighty years was pressed to death under heavy stones for refusing to submit to a trial on witchcraft charges. Hundreds of others faced accusations of witchcraft. Dozens languished in jail for months without trials. Then, almost as soon as it had begun, the hysteria that swept through Puritan Massachusetts ended.

www.law.umkc.edu...

19 men and women...remember that the Boston massacre involved 3 people. Every life is important, but I'm not sure how it compares to...

Between 1917 and 1940, 130,000 Orthodox priests were arrested. In 1918, the Cheka under Felix Dzerzhinsky executed over 3000 Orthodox clergymen of all ranks. Some were drowned in ice-holes or poured over with cold water in winter until they turned to ice-pillars. In 1922, the Solovki Camp of Special Purpose, the first Russian concentration camp was established in the Solovki Islands in the White Sea. Eight metropolitans, twenty archbishops, and forty-seven bishops of the Orthodox Church died there, along with tens of thousands of the laity. Of these, 95,000 were put to death, executed by firing squad. Father Pavel Florensky was one of the New-martyrs of this particular period.

In the first five years after the Bolshevik revolution, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed.

en.wikipedia.org...

When studying history, it's very important to maintain perspective. It did not stop in 1940, nor is this the only place this occurs.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by saint4God]

Body counts for the faithful always impress.

saint4God: I think the Judaism has the corner on body counts and martyrs.

reply to post by saint4God


Hi there saint4God,

I'd never heard about those particular atrocities before. I't never ceases to amaze me how human-beings (who are supposedly 'civilized'), can be so cruel to one another.

Very, very sad!

Woody

I would guess the stereotypical images of witches stem from the early Christian propoganda to discredit all practices ascociated with pagan beliefs. I've read somewhere that our traditional veiw of a horned Devil may have stemmed from much the same exercise to discredit the pagan diety Herne the horned god of the forest. There's also the multiple face of the goddess one of which was the wizened hag, perhaps there is some connection there too. I'm saying this not to discredit or attack Christianity. Christianity has it's good and bad side just like any other belief system, Wicca included. Remember while the Christian missionaries were converting the heathen using not always the most purest of methods, the pagans were also killing preists and monks with vigour too. Singling out one set of beliefs or religioun for attack is peurile IMO and smacks of an agenda.

Originally posted by crudos
Body counts for the faithful always impress.

The trivialization of human life is quite disturbing.

Originally posted by woodwytch
Hi there saint4God,

I'd never heard about those particular atrocities before. I't never ceases to amaze me how human-beings (who are supposedly 'civilized'), can be so cruel to one another.

Very, very sad!

Woody

Indeed, in the cases of Salem, Bolshevik Revolution, St. Bartholomew's massacre, Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust, and so forth, I don't know of any believer who would say they're not sins (moral wrong doings). In these mass exterminations however, religion is the scapegoat, not the cause.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by crudos
Body counts for the faithful always impress.

The trivialization of human life is quite disturbing.

Yes it is, very disturbing.

woodwych, good post about the trippy hog fat, if i can i'll add a more, eh, refined note on brooms and broomsticks to what you given us, it might help.

the celtic belief system, which probably has close ties to what was later called ''witchcraft'', seems to have held trees in pretty high regard (the romans even noted it but i can't remember which one), these traditional beliefs have traveled down to us through the ages, though their meanings are lost and obscured, kissing under the mistletoe at christmas is a good example. mistletoe used to be a fertility symbol particular to the winter festivals, and still is, but the meaning is obscured.

hazel was traditionally associated with knowledge. the hazelnut, the fruit, has a hard case, a sweet nut and grows inside an envelope of leaves. it represents knowledge encased in a hard shell and hidden. at the time of inquisition it would have seemed a powerful symbol.

it is also pretty good material for a broom, being straight, flexible and plentiful. a hazel broom is also easily hidden in plain sight, every house should have one. viewed from this angle it is quite easy to see how a broom would become linked to arcaine knowledge and witches, they probably had quite a few lying about.

edit to add:

i also have a possible explaination for the association with warts, a witches farmiliar was said to have suckled from a superflious nipple about the witches person, i don't know if any of you have ever had a wart, but they do bear a passing resemblance to a nipple, more inportantly, if you wanted to convict someone of witchcraft, you could claim one was the other, and the more ''nipples'' a witch had, the more farmiliars they had.



[edit on 29-2-2008 by pieman]

[edit on 29-2-2008 by pieman]

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by enchantress62

 

OK missy ... how did you manage to post a reply to my post, before I actually posted it ???

You must teach me that sometime.

Woody

Hehe maybe it's magic! No really, part of your post was up when I sent mine, but now the whole thing is up. Again thank you for the information, it's helpful.

You know this discussion is turning out to be a lot more interesting then I thought it would be. I thank you all for your controbution. Saint4God, I am truly sorry for your ppl as I am sorry for mine. Human massacre is tragic no matter who the group is. I've learned a lot today.

reply to post by pieman


'Trippy Hog-fat' love it.

The traditional witches broom (besom), served many purposes. Using 'Ash' for the shaft (properties include; awakening/rebirth/communication) ... 'Birch' for the brush (properties include; beginnings/energy/unseen forces of growth) ... 'Willow' for the binding(properties include; flexibility/intuition/psychic powers). Other materials that are sometimes used include ... bullrushes / thorn branches / mullien stalks or mugwort.

The beasom was/is an integral part of the 'Handfasting' ceremony (Pagan Wedding), to seal the deal (so to speak) ... 'jumping the broomtick'.

It's also a vital tool at any sabbat/esbbat to cleanse the circle by sweeping away negative energy.

My besom is relatively new (5yrs old), I had to make a new one when my youngest son and my ex-partner were play-fighting ... used it as a 'light-saber' and broke the shaft.

Which reminds me ... I should probably take the hex of them now ... they've been toads long enough ... they should have learned their lesson by now. *joke*

Woody

reply to post by pieman


'oops! sorry double post.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by woodwytch]

Originally posted by enchantress62
I asked the same thing about Buddha when I was researching that religion. How did we go from the skinny little Indian guy (Sedahartha) to the fat little Chinese guy that's sold in the stores today? It took me a year but I did find the answer to that question.

Ya know, you just skipped right over this one, would you care to share with the class?

I always thought that the term Buddha just meant enlightened person, and therefore there have been many.