Israel or Palestine? Understanding the conflict.

G-D made a contract with abraham-----that the promised land would be his and his (legitimate) descendants forever.genesis 13:15.

G-D is not a liar----that promise still stands.some say oh,but that was so long ago it can't still be in effect after all this time?

G-D doesn't look at the passing of time like we do----He says 1000 years to Him is just like 1 day.

abraham was born 2161 bce best as scholars can figure and the promised land was offered to abraham aproximately 2086 bce.

so roughly 4 days ago the way G-D views the passage of time the promised land was offered to abraham/isaac/jacob whose name was changed to israel and then to the 13 tribes.

how would you feel if you went on a 4 day trip and returned home to find squatters had moved into your house and told you to get because it was theirs now?

you've got the legal title and deed to your property and they don't---i would assume we'd all be a little bit upset if it happened to us and would want the police to evict the free loaders from our property ?

reply to post by AnAbsoluteCreation

First i'd like to balance/clear out a few things, since the quotations are overwhelmingly unilateral:
A:

The first Jews started arriving in Palestine around 1880's. They chose Palestine as it was relatively under-developed, close to Europe and loosely connected with the last Jewish nation two centuries prior

Two centuries? Last Jewish nation? It's been approximetly 2000 yrs since Jews actually governed this teritory. In diaspora Jewish nation contiuned to be , well, nation.
Small communities of Jews lived in this teritory throughout the history (give or take few decades) due to the fact that this land is considered a homeland of Jewish people and was/is mentioned in every day prayer. But is loosely connected,never the less?
en.wikipedia.org...
More Jews started to arrive since 1880,due to Zionism movement,but certain numbers of Jews were there well before it.
B: Isaiah is ...Itshak,son of Avraham? Or prophet?
C: Examples of Zionist terror are there, how about other side? From the "memory of a Palestinian prison guard" that was added, i can conclude that not only Jews did nasty things. You see, the reason that first date is 1937 in your list is this:
en.wikipedia.org...
And the bilateral violence continued by both sides, and British were attacked by both sides.
D:

In the beginning the Palestinians didn't mind

In the beginning of what ? And what palestinians? - Area was called by Turks vilayet of Saida. Arabic population living in that area did not consider itself different then Arabic population in other near- by parts of Ottoman empire. Ironicly, it was the Zionism that gave birth to national movement of Palestinians.
Nobody doubts that current situation is as far from ideal as it can be.
However Both sides did their best to bring the situation to where it is.
Presenting only one, incomplete ,not-correct in some parts, side of the story does nothing to make things better. Millions of Jews are not going to dissapere from here, Millions of Palestines will continue to try and create their country, hopefully not only to ruin their neigbour as it is now, but also be free from foreign rule.

I have been reading and trying to understand this Palestine and Iasrael thing for a while. I understand that this has gone on for a while know thousands of years. Israel wasnt a recognized country untill after WW2 when America, Stalin, and Churchill ect.. formed what is now the middle east. Did they not create this as we know it know. England was in a quagmire for twenty to thirty years after the war and couldnt get out of the middle east fast enough. If I remember correctly they had controll of a bunch of middle east countries like turkey and others and basicly gave up controll of those countries because they where a mess. People are talking about what happend 1,2,3 10 thousand years ago but what about the last hundred years.

Originally posted by White Chapel
[...and not in reference to the original term Zionism used by Jews themselves.

Jews themselves? Their are more non-jewish zionist (evangelical christians) than jewish zionist. So it seems you missed that "angle."

AAC

reply to post by yahn goodey



Your justifications are force-fed to you and you are obviously reiterating rubbish. 1,000 years equals a day, so we all must tell the free-loaders to leave now? You do not have a grasp on God, you have somebody elses idea of a comprehension. Doesn't it feel uncomfortable to reiterate what you can't validate yourself?

And you say you want to be G-D? This desire alone indicates your contaminated idea of god and organized religion.

I will still help you if you need any clarification on my points.

AAC

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


That may very well be true, however, my effort is to reveal the other side of the story, which is largely ignored by major information outlets.

I am aware that they both continually exacerbate the problem, but I feel as if the entire scope need to be understood before we can start fixing the problem.

AAC

To the victors go the spoils. That is my feeling. The jews with help have clawed and fought for every inch of land. By the same token I would say the same if a state like Utah wanted a "homeland" for their flock and somehow won in a war that right. So whatever, most arab countries don't want anything to do with the Palestine. They think of them as poor, dirty little rats. They just hate the jews more.

In the previous posts people talked allot about about the history of this conflict. I really dont think it has a lot to do with this now as opposed to a thousand or more years ago. Thousands of years ago is where it started but is it why it is what it is todoay. Isreal was not Israel until after WW2 right. If Israel was not alloted to them after the war this wouldnt be a issue would it. Am I wrong in what I said if so please tell me why.

From what i understand, as soon as the allied forces gave palestine to the isreali's, those isreali's unleashed a massive ethnic cleansing that has continued until today. The isreali's are responsible for daily deaths of palestinians, keep them under armed occupation, control their access to food, medicine, electricity, water. They have killed tens of thousands. In comparison the palestinians have killed what? a thousand isreali's? with homemade rockets, sticks and stones? How many palestinians have kicked isreali's out of their homes and taken all their things? how many palestinians have refused health care, food, water, etc to the whole population of isreal? In the meantime, isreal has had several wars and unwarranted attacks against several other countries in their area, how many others have the palestinians attacked? Same issue with lebanon. A soldier is kidnapped so isreal bombs and destroys lebanese homes and towns, killing hundreds? Isreali's have been kidnapping arabs with impunity for some time, how is that an equal response? No, i definitely think that no peace can be made when the balance of stolen land, the balance of stolen lives, the balance of stolen freedom is so drastically skewed to one side. Isreal must be reasonably willing to give and compromise before they can both stand on equal ground and work together. The isreali's could give them half their land back, apologize for 50 years of theft robbery, and aggression, and promise to treat them as humans. What have the palestinians taken that they could even offer back?

Originally posted by pexx421
From what i understand, as soon as the allied forces gave palestine to the isreali's, those isreali's unleashed a massive ethnic cleansing that has continued until today. The isreali's are responsible for daily deaths of palestinians, keep them under armed occupation, control their access to food, medicine, electricity, water. They have killed tens of thousands. In comparison the palestinians have killed what? a thousand isreali's? with homemade rockets, sticks and stones? How many palestinians have kicked isreali's out of their homes and taken all their things? how many palestinians have refused health care, food, water, etc to the whole population of isreal? In the meantime, isreal has had several wars and unwarranted attacks against several other countries in their area, how many others have the palestinians attacked? Same issue with lebanon. A soldier is kidnapped so isreal bombs and destroys lebanese homes and towns, killing hundreds? Isreali's have been kidnapping arabs with impunity for some time, how is that an equal response? No, i definitely think that no peace can be made when the balance of stolen land, the balance of stolen lives, the balance of stolen freedom is so drastically skewed to one side. Isreal must be reasonably willing to give and compromise before they can both stand on equal ground and work together. The isreali's could give them half their land back, apologize for 50 years of theft robbery, and aggression, and promise to treat them as humans. What have the palestinians taken that they could even offer back?

Look at it realisticly! The fighting between these 2 nations has being going on for a long time. I'd say 2000 years or so. So even IF Israel will give half of the land , its not gonna stop anything at all. First of all because Israel is already small , if you devide it in half , then half of the economic resources will be taken away. Secondly , (this is just a hypothesis), but i dont think there will be enough space for all of israel to live in just half of its size.
But the real point is that EVEN after israel would give half of its land to palistines. There would still be war, because Israel will lose half of its econimic means of production( and I dont think the palistines will share with isreal). Then there would be a mass slaughter inside of palistines. Because they would try to kill the remainng jews on the given land.
So from here its pretty obvious why Israel CANT just give half of its land to palistines. Because it would lead to self destruction of Israel.

And just to finish off, if you look through your point of view about how Israel is just a stolen land that REALLY belongs to palistine, then I dont think that the palistines would be satisfied with just half of their original land.

reply to post by pexx421


ethnic cleansing

NOUN:

The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.
from education.yahoo.com...
Palestinian population/Arab citizens inside Israel in 1948 156,000
about 700000 plus fled/were driven away DURING the WAR.
Palestinian population/Arab citizens inside Israel in 2006 1,413,300
Naturally, some of people that lost their land in 1948 ,in 1967 added up to total population
Please describe how population being "clean sed" grows much faster then the "cleanser".?
As for Jews treated the same (banished/killed) when Arab armies won the day you can read here:
en.wikipedia.org...

Isreal haven't done any ethnic cleansing since Joshua. True Palestines had lost homes. But Isreal give it back. They give the Palestines Gaza.And Most maybe not all of the West bank. Right now they negotiating on Jerusalem. If Isreal give up and let the Palestines have Jerusalum.And give the Golan Hights back Syria. The Palestines will not stop sending it own people to kill other people that aren't military by killing themself.

Originally posted by kennethmd
The Palestines will not stop sending it own people to kill other people that aren't military by killing themself.

Fairness should never be based on an assumption. Unless, you know for a fact they they would still blow themselves up?

AAC

Israel wasnt stolen ot taken it was given to them by the allied forces after WW2 as was most of the middle east divided by them. Palestine is not innocent either I remember in the mid ninety's they had the people blowing them selves up in Israels markets and bus systems. The whole blocking them off from food and resorces thing seems strange to me. Israel barely has a spot on the mediterranean sea and is surrounded by Palestines Muslum friends and alies. Why dont the take advantage of the situation and do some business with them and help thier neighbors. It doesnt seem like thier should be a problem there Palestine is surrounded by people of thier same religion and ethnic group why do they have such a problem branching out into thier terrirories they are so much alike. Why do they have to go thru Israel to the Sea and take thier land. I might be sounding for Israel here but dont care either way I am just a curious 28 year old from America

Iran used to be huge Iraq was bigger it was a lot different then in the middle east from the little I can remember about it. If some one could find a map of what it used to look like it would open allot of people's minds as to how the world is so much different than it was 100 years ago. I wish they would have given us a chance to learn interesting stuff like this in school I would have paid attention.

Remember they where being exterminated in the greater Europe region for being good business men and a thret to major powers there because of it. That is why they where given a country by the alied forces to build a home and protect themselves. Why there wasnt something said then from the other peoples in the region is beyond me. Maybe that is why the war they fought in the 60's.

Here is a map of what the middle east looked like in 1924

What is gained by the "You started it! No, you started it!" game? The fact is both sides of this argument can find plenty of resources in their cultural traditions, political history and so on to argue that the land really belongs to them. There is no answer to that question, and even if there were, what difference would it make to sorting out the Palestinian-Israeli conflict today?

All this is just my opinion now

Israel has a right to exist for no other reason that then are millions of Israelis living there, with a unique culture and heritage, most of whom were born there. Why should they be blamed because by a trick of fate they were born on contested territory? I feel they have a right to retain the national culture and identity.

However, Palestinians have the same claim, and the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank by subsequent Israel governments (and please note, it is the government, and not the majority of Israelis themselves - do you blame US and UK citizen for the actions of their governments?) has been shockingly inhumane. Indefensibly, so, in fact, as Palestinian threats to Israel's security have never been so high (nor, in my rather hippie-ish morality, ever could be so high) as to justify their suffering.

However, suicide-bombing is a decidedly and thoroughly inhumane and ineffective response - also, I can't help but notice how it is young men, women and children who end up strapped with bombs walking through a crowded, non-military area with the detonator in their hands and not any of the leaders of the terrorist organisations who praise so highly the valour and morality of such actions. It seems to me that the Palestinian people are getting screwed by both their own and Israel's leaderships.

I believe the most likely solution to work (and this, again, is just my own conjecture) would be a two-state solution along the 1967 lines with either Jerusalem internationalised, or divided to allow both states to have it as their capital.

That way, both could retain their distinct national culture, and (again, in my sentimental hippie fantasy) the pressing need to share resources should create strong economic and trade ties between the two states that would discourage aggression and conflict between the two.

I think America should take the pragmatist approach of "who's gonna win?" and the fact that Israel has lost Sinai, Gaza and is seriously talking about cutting the West Bank and/or Golan loose demonstrates that they do not have much time left. I am by no means suggesting that America should fund the Palestinians, except perhaps for humanitarian needs, but I think any more funds spent on Israel by us are wasted.

i can see by some of your postings that most of you have no idea of the history of the region. Isreals supposed 2000 year conflict with arabs has little to do with their current conflict with palestinians. This is all since the allies gave the isreali's lands that did not belong to the allies to give. If the allies felt bad about the europeans treatment of jews, they should have given them lands that belonged to the europeans. And to say that other countries in that area should share with the palestinians because they are all muslim is like saying that france should share with spain because they are all christian...its silly. I wasnt saying that isreal should give half their land to palestine or half of their economy...just half of what they took through aggression. There were instances of isreal massacreing whole towns of palestinians during their first mass movement into palestine...the palestinians have no comparable conquest into isreali lands. As to suicide bombings, and the palestinian tactics.... these are common tactics to ALL subjugated and occupied territories when held by a larger and totally dominating force. If it happened here in the U.S. YOU and your family and friends (whichever were left after the carnage) would be doing the same thing. Oh....wait....there are already people here in america doing the same thing....the mass murder/suiciders, the unibomber, etc, and we havent even been through what the palestinians have yet. None of you has the right to be an reclining chair judge, as there, but for the grace of god, go you. So drink your beer, watch your tv, and dont believe for a second you are any better than those who you judge without ever having had to experience one day of their lives